I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

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Unvoiced_Apollo
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I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby Unvoiced_Apollo » Sun Jun 5, 6:32 2016

But not because I agree with anything he says. He has simply pushed us to the logical conclusion of where our fucked up political system was taking us faster than anyone could be ready for it.

What am I saying?

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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby spacefem » Sun Jun 5, 8:16 2016

Interesting.

My fear with Trump is that when the US erupts into hateful mob violence, he'll sit back in his cushy tower with his friends with a "let them eat cake" attitude while innocent kids are getting hurt. That's the worst. History has shown that the worst doesn't *usually* happen. If it does though, who wins? I don't think people will thoughtfully sit back and look at the blood and say "I guess we should reduce the power of money in politics." We will just literally lose everything, and when you lose everything you're not thoughtful. From that standpoint your logic is flawed.

Read Persepolis.

BUT. People said if we elected Obama he'd let terrorists attack us, that didn't happen. People said if we elected Bush he'd force us all at gunpoint to go to church. That didn't happen. Not that he wouldn't try.

I'm just scraping at optimism, hoping we can somehow be okay, because that's how I survive.
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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby Sonic# » Sun Jun 5, 8:25 2016

Making political decisions on the basis of your despair seems like a bad thing to do. All you're doing is making it incrementally more likely that a president is elected whose stated policies include keeping all people of Muslim faith from entering the US and building a wall with Mexico.

It seems easy for you to call this a logical conclusion without fighting for it, because you're not as likely to suffer under the violence Trump is promoting.

Why not instead volunteer for a local political organization? Why not give some time to people who you think would be better than Trump? For me, that's Hillary Clinton. For you, that may be Jill Stein or Bernie Sanders. Why didn't you vote in the Democratic primary?

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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby Storage and Disposal » Sun Jun 5, 13:12 2016

^this

It's easy to make a choice like voting for Trump when you aren't the one he's going to shit on the most. It's not a bold statement though. It's quite inconsiderate.
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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby Unvoiced_Apollo » Mon Jun 6, 5:35 2016

Sonic# wrote:Making political decisions on the basis of your despair seems like a bad thing to do. All you're doing is making it incrementally more likely that a president is elected whose stated policies include keeping all people of Muslim faith from entering the US and building a wall with Mexico.

It seems easy for you to call this a logical conclusion without fighting for it, because you're not as likely to suffer under the violence Trump is promoting.

Why not instead volunteer for a local political organization? Why not give some time to people who you think would be better than Trump? For me, that's Hillary Clinton. For you, that may be Jill Stein or Bernie Sanders. Why didn't you vote in the Democratic primary?


I don't feel there is no one that's "better than Trump", just lesser evils. And I can't get excited for this system or vote like that manner anymore. If we're going to have a system where nothing ever gets done, might as well have a leader who is entertaining who will never get these policies passed. I think he would be the only republican candidate that could keep a Republican majority Congress in check because going through his policies would be political suicide.

I didn't vote in the democratic primary because my state has open primaries & I was tired of voting for them. As I said, no one exciting for me. Plus I found out recently that what party you vote for in a primary is public information. Not the individual candidate you vote for, but the party primary you participate in. So I also wanted to throw a bit of a curveball with anyone that might be checking to see how someone voted.

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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby octarineoboe » Mon Jun 6, 16:18 2016

Unvoiced_Apollo wrote:If we're going to have a system where nothing ever gets done, might as well have a leader who is entertaining who will never get these policies passed. .

The presidency is not a fucking joke. And while building a wall along the Mexican border probably won't happen, nationwide restrictions on reproductive rights definitely could with a Republican president and Republican Congress (to take but ONE example). To vote for Trump on the assumption that none of his policy proposals could pass is to gamble with the lives of people who could be seriously hurt by those policies. I don't think that's worth it for the sake of having an "entertaining" leader.

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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby Enigma » Mon Jun 6, 17:07 2016

Just a warning from a Canadian. The entertaining leader/dude from outside the system thing was a big factor in how Rob Ford became mayor of Toronto. I'm sure most of you heard about his crack smoking but did you hear about the 1 billion in undeclared debt he racked up?
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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby Unvoiced_Apollo » Mon Jun 6, 18:30 2016

octarineoboe wrote:
Unvoiced_Apollo wrote:If we're going to have a system where nothing ever gets done, might as well have a leader who is entertaining who will never get these policies passed. .

The presidency is not a fucking joke. And while building a wall along the Mexican border probably won't happen, nationwide restrictions on reproductive rights definitely could with a Republican president and Republican Congress (to take but ONE example). To vote for Trump on the assumption that none of his policy proposals could pass is to gamble with the lives of people who could be seriously hurt by those policies. I don't think that's worth it for the sake of having an "entertaining" leader.


I'm sorry, but the presidency & the whole political system has been a joke for a long time.

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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby octarineoboe » Mon Jun 6, 18:45 2016

Unvoiced_Apollo wrote:
octarineoboe wrote:
Unvoiced_Apollo wrote:If we're going to have a system where nothing ever gets done, might as well have a leader who is entertaining who will never get these policies passed. .

The presidency is not a fucking joke. And while building a wall along the Mexican border probably won't happen, nationwide restrictions on reproductive rights definitely could with a Republican president and Republican Congress (to take but ONE example). To vote for Trump on the assumption that none of his policy proposals could pass is to gamble with the lives of people who could be seriously hurt by those policies. I don't think that's worth it for the sake of having an "entertaining" leader.


I'm sorry, but the presidency & the whole political system has been a joke for a long time.


Perhaps we're not using "joke" in the same way. Let me rephrase, then: The political system has real effects on people's lives. That shouldn't be taken lightly.

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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby Sonic# » Mon Jun 6, 20:59 2016

^ This. There are people whose livelihoods hang on issues like immigration reform, healthcare, foreign policy, and worker's rights. Throwing up one's hands and giving the keys to the "joke" system basically gives the finger to everyone else.

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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby Unvoiced_Apollo » Tue Jun 7, 4:40 2016

Sonic# wrote:^ This. There are people whose livelihoods hang on issues like immigration reform, healthcare, foreign policy, and worker's rights. Throwing up one's hands and giving the keys to the "joke" system basically gives the finger to everyone else.


And what I'm saying is the system has always had the keys and has already been giving the finger to everyone else.

[edit]Also please note I didn't say I would vote for him in the general and by the time the primary rolled around here, the only real competition was Ted Cruz. So to compete with the democratic nominee, it was either vote for someone with no track record who says a bunch of sh!t or someone with an actual track record of shitty policies. I wouldn't want either to win, but I would rather take a gamble on Trump winning the presidency than I would Cruz winning it.

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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby monk » Thu Jun 9, 11:40 2016

The problem you might not see with Trump is that he likes to make deals and his moral compass only points towards his own gain. So he would side with the radical right to restrict reproductive rights if they would side with him to say ..build a stupid wall. Trump is not dumb, he's a master manipulator, and while I agree with you that the system is broken, it could take decades to repair what he and a republican congress could achieve in the two years we have before midterms come and the democrats can take back the house or the senate. Voting for Trump on any level is playing with fire. I would have taken Cruz over Trump, I know his kind of evil, just like I know Clintons, Trump is too unpredictable.
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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby Superior500 » Fri Jun 10, 10:31 2016

spacefem wrote:My fear with Trump is that when the US erupts into hateful mob violence, he'll sit back in his cushy tower with his friends with a "let them eat cake" attitude while innocent kids are getting hurt. That's the worst. History has shown that the worst doesn't *usually* happen. If it does though, who wins? I don't think people will thoughtfully sit back and look at the blood and say "I guess we should reduce the power of money in politics." We will just literally lose everything, and when you lose everything you're not thoughtful. From that standpoint your logic is flawed.

Read Persepolis.

BUT. People said if we elected Obama he'd let terrorists attack us, that didn't happen. People said if we elected Bush he'd force us all at gunpoint to go to church. That didn't happen. Not that he wouldn't try.

I'm just scraping at optimism, hoping we can somehow be okay, because that's how I survive.


And the way I survive is by physically changing if anything bad is going to happen to me and ensuring it never does. What a defeatist perspective.

Anyways, Trump is coming to this out of a sense of civic duty and is anything BUT the aristocratic figures that, ironically, you left-wingers are."Disagree with us? Hate us? How sweet. We'll perma-ban you. Let them eat cake". Those are the words of your very own forum, nevermind the sentiment of most upper- to middle-class democrats in positions of bureaucratic power and esteem which let the lower-classes bear the sum total of the social frictions caused by immigration, stupid HR policies and political correctness, anti-discrimination laws and affirmative action, police force shackling to avoid profiling, I really could go on - it's not the rich who say "let them eat cake", it's you. You're the new elites, somewhere between political and cultural leaders and angry mob-ruling masses. Conservatives say "let them eat cake" in one thing and one thing only - economic affairs. And even here Trump has never made a statement to that effect or echoed something parallel. Trump's biggest flaw is the one everyone already pointed out - he's a nationalist vs a globalist. In a world where the USA is king, he may yet create a power vaccum in Europe and Asia (I don't think anybody's pointed this out but I am and it's quite obvious) which is de facto protected and financed (respectively) by the US, allowing for a potential alliance between the PRC and Russia (though that conclusion is much more dubious - what isn't dubious however is increasing political and potential militaristic conflict, tensions and struggles for power in the region)

But as to the potential of hateful mob violence, to date the only people who were hateful mobs were the minorities (race riots, left-wing protests, organized attempts to no-platform and mute dissent). Seems only fair that the majority would get it's turn, wouldn't you say? I am not in favour of any type of mob violence, but that is the only option left when the system is corrupt and "perma-bans" people for daring to even touch the untouchable subjects, and you really can't argue about the justice of the whole thing. Just another reason why you should ease up on the banning of people who "troll" your forums if all they do is disagree without being nasty about it. Today you might ban them. Tomorrow you might not get a choice in the matter because you have shown yourself impervious to rational and unbiased discussion leaving only the more drastic options left. But in principle I'm against it, it's not the way a civilized organised society gets around to doing things. If we're going to deport people, then we should deport them humanely and in an organised bureaucratic, clean fashion.

PS Obama let Iran get nukes (as far as anybody knows), is appeasing N Korea by playing soft ball with a soft ball (I know it's a bad joke, I could use the levity) and allowed ISIS to happen. That alone should make him more evil than Bush. Of course all lwingers are full of it and he is black, so he can do anything and people will still treat him like a child because slavery happened 200 years ago....he can stutter on national TV and people say he's got charisma...give me a damn break.

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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby Sonic# » Fri Jun 10, 11:08 2016

To be fair, the first amendment does not preserve the right to say whatever you want in privately owned spaces like this forum. Permabanning someone for being incoherent or toxic is not at all the same as criticizing someone publicly for being incoherent or toxic, and that in turn is not at all the same as jailing someone who's incoherent or toxic who is speaking in public. In order, we have:
Totally cool;
Totally cool;
Violation of the first amendment.

If you're going to get angry about "permabans," get angry about all of the protestors that Donald Trump has "permabanned" from his speaking events. Get angry about Jorge Ramos being forcibly ejected from a press conference when he dared ask a question of Trump.

I can make that argument because you're intentionally vague about the context where permabans take place.

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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby Enigma » Fri Jun 10, 15:51 2016

I'm not sure if the idea that trump isn't going to protect the elite (considering that's all he's ever shown interest in doing) or the idea that majorities have never formed hateful mobs is more ridiculous.
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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby Unvoiced_Apollo » Fri Jun 10, 17:48 2016

Superior500 wrote:
spacefem wrote:My fear with Trump is that when the US erupts into hateful mob violence, he'll sit back in his cushy tower with his friends with a "let them eat cake" attitude while innocent kids are getting hurt. That's the worst. History has shown that the worst doesn't *usually* happen. If it does though, who wins? I don't think people will thoughtfully sit back and look at the blood and say "I guess we should reduce the power of money in politics." We will just literally lose everything, and when you lose everything you're not thoughtful. From that standpoint your logic is flawed.

Read Persepolis.

BUT. People said if we elected Obama he'd let terrorists attack us, that didn't happen. People said if we elected Bush he'd force us all at gunpoint to go to church. That didn't happen. Not that he wouldn't try.

I'm just scraping at optimism, hoping we can somehow be okay, because that's how I survive.


And the way I survive is by physically changing if anything bad is going to happen to me and ensuring it never does. What a defeatist perspective.

Anyways, Trump is coming to this out of a sense of civic duty and is anything BUT the aristocratic figures that, ironically, you left-wingers are."Disagree with us? Hate us? How sweet. We'll perma-ban you. Let them eat cake". Those are the words of your very own forum, nevermind the sentiment of most upper- to middle-class democrats in positions of bureaucratic power and esteem which let the lower-classes bear the sum total of the social frictions caused by immigration, stupid HR policies and political correctness, anti-discrimination laws and affirmative action, police force shackling to avoid profiling, I really could go on - it's not the rich who say "let them eat cake", it's you. You're the new elites, somewhere between political and cultural leaders and angry mob-ruling masses. Conservatives say "let them eat cake" in one thing and one thing only - economic affairs. And even here Trump has never made a statement to that effect or echoed something parallel. Trump's biggest flaw is the one everyone already pointed out - he's a nationalist vs a globalist. In a world where the USA is king, he may yet create a power vaccum in Europe and Asia (I don't think anybody's pointed this out but I am and it's quite obvious) which is de facto protected and financed (respectively) by the US, allowing for a potential alliance between the PRC and Russia (though that conclusion is much more dubious - what isn't dubious however is increasing political and potential militaristic conflict, tensions and struggles for power in the region)

But as to the potential of hateful mob violence, to date the only people who were hateful mobs were the minorities (race riots, left-wing protests, organized attempts to no-platform and mute dissent). Seems only fair that the majority would get it's turn, wouldn't you say? I am not in favour of any type of mob violence, but that is the only option left when the system is corrupt and "perma-bans" people for daring to even touch the untouchable subjects, and you really can't argue about the justice of the whole thing. Just another reason why you should ease up on the banning of people who "troll" your forums if all they do is disagree without being nasty about it. Today you might ban them. Tomorrow you might not get a choice in the matter because you have shown yourself impervious to rational and unbiased discussion leaving only the more drastic options left. But in principle I'm against it, it's not the way a civilized organised society gets around to doing things. If we're going to deport people, then we should deport them humanely and in an organised bureaucratic, clean fashion.

PS Obama let Iran get nukes (as far as anybody knows), is appeasing N Korea by playing soft ball with a soft ball (I know it's a bad joke, I could use the levity) and allowed ISIS to happen. That alone should make him more evil than Bush. Of course all lwingers are full of it and he is black, so he can do anything and people will still treat him like a child because slavery happened 200 years ago....he can stutter on national TV and people say he's got charisma...give me a damn break.



The difference is as the starter of those thread fo not feel the threat of a perma-ban. This was meant to be a rant, I said my piece, and others have said theirs. Even if I were perma-banned, it wouldn't be from disagreeing with me. If that were the case I'd have been banned several posts or threads ago. No, these moderators do a reasonable job deciding who gets banned. My purpose was not to get reactions but really just let off some steam about the system and how it has led me to this admittedly poor decision. I said my piece, others have said theirs and their reactions are understandable. However, despite our disagreement I am still here. Because as I said I was not trolling but letting off some steam. Again, if they banned simply because we disagreed, I would not be posting this to you now.

[Edit]This is what they have written:

Trolling

You will be banned if we get the sense that you're posting just to make people angry or disagree with us.


This is what they have to say about trolling. They're not saying that they will ban you for disagreeing. Take out the firsr clause and you have "You will be banned of we get the you're posting just to disagree with us". In other words, if you're just trying to be a contrarian and start some stuff then yes, you are a creating a toxic environment. Now perhaps it could be read that this thread was meant to do that. But as you can see, I stopped because I saw how bad it could be getting. It also means that the mods gave me a chance to stop. So I reiterate, simply disagreeing doesn't get you banned.

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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby melsbells » Mon Jun 13, 15:19 2016

I can sympathize with how Unvoiced_Apollo is feeling about the broken system. I've heard some people say in passing that they feel as though they should vote for the candidate they thought was worst to get the government to hit the inevitable rock bottom sooner. The real problem I have with that is the vote, because when someone votes for someone, no matter what the reason, it gives the impression that that person has that much more support behind them. I know a lot of people feel you have to vote for the lesser of two evils and that it's great because it's the better candidate, and I've done that in the past. But I've since decided that if I'm going to vote, I'm going to vote for a candidate that I'm actually excited about, that might be a main party candidate or it might be a third party candidate, or even be an independent or write in. This election cycle, I'm most excited about a third party candidate, and I know some people think that's throwing away my vote, but I feel like it's the only way my vote actually counts for anything.

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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby antfancier » Mon Jun 13, 19:25 2016

melsbells wrote:The real problem I have with that is the vote, because when someone votes for someone, no matter what the reason, it gives the impression that that person has that much more support behind them.


Yes, I feel like you're better off not voting than giving support to someone you really don't like. It would be great if on the ballot card there was a 'protest' box you could check to show that you care enough to turn out to vote but that you don't support any choices.

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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby Unvoiced_Apollo » Tue Jun 14, 5:45 2016

antfancier wrote:
melsbells wrote:The real problem I have with that is the vote, because when someone votes for someone, no matter what the reason, it gives the impression that that person has that much more support behind them.


Yes, I feel like you're better off not voting than giving support to someone you really don't like. It would be great if on the ballot card there was a 'protest' box you could check to show that you care enough to turn out to vote but that you don't support any choices.


I'm tempted to write in "These choices suck" in the general.

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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby Storage and Disposal » Tue Jun 14, 9:12 2016

^Such a thing is a prime example of privilege.
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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby octarineoboe » Tue Jun 14, 16:43 2016

^ Yeah, I really disagree with protest voting. As I said above, elections have consequences, and in our two-party system the most likely consequence of a vote for a third party is that it draws votes away from the major party candidate who is most similar to the third party candidate. That's a convoluted sentence but to put it in terms of the 2016 presidential election, if you (the generic you) generally lean Democratic and plan to vote for, say, Jill Stein, I want you to at least acknowledge that you're making it more likely Trump will win, and I am very interested to hear your reasons why that is an acceptable outcome to you.

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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby Unvoiced_Apollo » Wed Jun 15, 7:41 2016

octarineoboe wrote:^ Yeah, I really disagree with protest voting. As I said above, elections have consequences, and in our two-party system the most likely consequence of a vote for a third party is that it draws votes away from the major party candidate who is most similar to the third party candidate. That's a convoluted sentence but to put it in terms of the 2016 presidential election, if you (the generic you) generally lean Democratic and plan to vote for, say, Jill Stein, I want you to at least acknowledge that you're making it more likely Trump will win, and I am very interested to hear your reasons why that is an acceptable outcome to you.



I believe it's a worse consequence to continue to accept that there's no other choice than to vote for the lesser of two evils. This is really the only reason the system continues, because we're too afraid of what will happen when not enough people join us. I would much rather risk a Trump presidency and vote for a candidate in the General election rather than along party lines. The only reason a 3rd party vote is wasted is because that's how people feel. But just look at the disgust even the Republican party has had with Trump and the anger of a population took to get him to nominee status. This is exactly where "Third Party candidates aren't viable" gets us.

I realize I had a hand in Trump being the nominee, but my vote is but a drop in a bucket floating in a sea of two-party primaries. The truth of the matter is the whole reason this system keeps going on is because we're too afraid of the consequences of not enough people following our lead. But here's the thing: The only vote wasted is the vote you don't believe in. Why is it acceptable to continue voting for evil, even if it is the lesser one? Is that not the worst consequence, to allow yourself to not really & truly vote your conscience as I have done?

If you believe in Hillary Clinton, by all means do vote for her in the General Election . But if you're voting for her even though you like Jill Stein because you're afraid of Donald Trump, then in my opinion you're conscience should weigh as heavy as mine for not truly voting by your principles.

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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby Nech » Wed Jun 15, 9:37 2016

To be fair, Canada had a two party majority for a loooong time until people got fed up and voted for the 3rd option en masse a few years back. Now it's always a 3 way race.
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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby octarineoboe » Thu Jun 16, 18:56 2016

Unvoiced_Apollo wrote:I believe it's a worse consequence to continue to accept that there's no other choice than to vote for the lesser of two evils. ... Is that not the worst consequence, to allow yourself to not really & truly vote your conscience as I have done?


Maybe these two points are the heart of our disagreement. My conscience is more concerned with the outcome than with ideological purity. I would NOT feel okay thinking that my third-party vote helped Trump win the presidency. And I think a reasonable assessment of the possible outcomes suggests that in our current two-party system, that's what would happen.

Your suggestion that two-party voting is motivated by fear also falls flat to me as a reason not to do it. It's reasonable to be afraid of the harm that bad policies (however you define "bad") can do. Again, I think a reasonable, historically informed assessment shows that "enough" people won't join you, and it's more likely that those bad policies will come to pass than that there will be a sudden, meaningful surge in 3rd-party success.

To bring it back to the 2016 presidential race specifically, though, you also said in your original post that you don't agree with anything Trump says. So I don't really see how voting for him in the primary was voting your conscience.

Finally, though I think this discussion is applicable well outside this race, I might as well add that I DO positively support Hillary Clinton as a candidate in her own right, not merely as a "less evil" contrast to Trump. I think she's super-smart, liberal, diplomatic, feminist, and incredibly graceful in the face of decades of right-wing smears and unfounded attacks and sexist bullshit. And I'm so excited about the prospect of a woman president that I can barely say it out loud for fear I might somehow jinx it.

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Re: I voted for Trump in my state's primaries

Postby Unvoiced_Apollo » Fri Jun 17, 5:49 2016

octarineoboe wrote:
Unvoiced_Apollo wrote:I believe it's a worse consequence to continue to accept that there's no other choice than to vote for the lesser of two evils. ... Is that not the worst consequence, to allow yourself to not really & truly vote your conscience as I have done?


Maybe these two points are the heart of our disagreement. My conscience is more concerned with the outcome than with ideological purity. I would NOT feel okay thinking that my third-party vote helped Trump win the presidency. And I think a reasonable assessment of the possible outcomes suggests that in our current two-party system, that's what would happen.

Your suggestion that two-party voting is motivated by fear also falls flat to me as a reason not to do it. It's reasonable to be afraid of the harm that bad policies (however you define "bad") can do. Again, I think a reasonable, historically informed assessment shows that "enough" people won't join you, and it's more likely that those bad policies will come to pass than that there will be a sudden, meaningful surge in 3rd-party success.

To bring it back to the 2016 presidential race specifically, though, you also said in your original post that you don't agree with anything Trump says. So I don't really see how voting for him in the primary was voting your conscience.

Finally, though I think this discussion is applicable well outside this race, I might as well add that I DO positively support Hillary Clinton as a candidate in her own right, not merely as a "less evil" contrast to Trump. I think she's super-smart, liberal, diplomatic, feminist, and incredibly graceful in the face of decades of right-wing smears and unfounded attacks and sexist bullshit. And I'm so excited about the prospect of a woman president that I can barely say it out loud for fear I might somehow jinx it.


I just think that the only reason we have a two party system is because we the voters allow it. I really have nothing more to say in my defense, so I won't say anymore on the subject. I do have a couple of quick bullet points on a couple of my statements & prose.

-When I said "you" i just meant 'you' in a general sense, not you specifically.

-As for voting my conscience, I did say that my decision to do that is weighing heavily because I didn't vote accordingly, which is why I created this very short rant. I will certainly admit to it being hypocritical, but...I really having nothing to say in defense of it.


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