I am angry

[Storage and Disposal]

I was referencing the tendencies of wealthier men and artists dating back to the Renaissance. They all weren't by definition gay, it was just a more sexually open culture. Young men were often objectified.

[edit] I suppose she may have meant that they haven't been objectified lately when she said for centuries. I'm not sure if she's implying that women have been objectified for centuries or that men haven't been objectified for centuries. I think they still are. I've been objectified a few times in the past.

[Dragonrider]

A lot of good points on the objectification of men. With them in mind, I want to get back to how what an ideal solution would be.

Let's put it this way. Lills, let's say you have the power to change reality. With your MIND. After immediately changing reality to give Meppi the same power (she is, after all, in charge of mind prawn), what would you do to change these interactions to make them more equal? I.e. what would you have happen more often, less often, prevent from happening, have stuff happen in a different context, etc?

And what does "IMHO" mean?

IMHO stands for 'In my humble opinion.' Sometimes it's used ironically, although I don't think it was here.

[Dragonrider]

Psst, Lills! I'm genuinely wondering, I hope you didn't lose interest!

[lillerina]

Sorry, yeah, not lost interest, just been thinking a lot about it.

For me, an ideal world would involve respect for one another. So, nobody would treat each other like objects aside from in situations where it has already been established that this is acceptable (eg in some relationships).

[Ska]

i responded to this theme in a more recent thread in this forum section, but ill copy and paste it here because i think it applies:

It is important to make a distinction here between the general term 'objectification' and 'sexual objectification'. Typically it is the latter that is referred to in cases of feminist discussion.

Going from there, i think it is a very complicated issue. In so many cases of "catcalling", or at least from the ones i have been witness to, it seems that it generally only serves one purpose, and that is displaying hegemonic masculinity to a counter part. That is to say that the one who is accosting is usually with someone else, typically another male, and by doing this action he is declaring his heterosexuality and reaffirming that he, as is the general gender myth, a 'typical' horny male. I've never seen an instance of "catcalling" that ended up in a conversation or positive atmosphere.

I think in any situation calling out to a female, or male for that matter, in a demeaning - unwanted manner is disrespectful and ignorant.

I think that everyone makes judgments based on appearances, this is a human condition of which none of us can escape. HOWEVER acting in such a way that you treat people as 'less than' or as if they are there for you to reduce to a sexual object IS something we can control. It is called responsibility. It is called respect. It is called education. I truly believe that many people do not think it is wrong to judge someone based on how they look, sexually or otherwise. I also believe some people do it while thinking very passionately that they do not do it. I think through education and discussions such as this we can teach each other about acceptance and respect.

As a final note I would say that I am guilty, as I believe maybe EVERYONE is, of looking at someone and seeing them in a highly sexualized way, something to look at, and they become not a person, but a body. These feelings have helped realize my own bias and internalized sexism, but i do not think it makes me less of a person. I think it makes me a better person that i come to terms with it, and educate myself on how i have been socialized to focus on women as sexual objects and what kind of effect that may have on women.
_________________

[rowan]

I know this thread is way-dead, but I don't think this story deserves a new thread all to its own. I just wanted to note that CNN has an article about this topic today:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal ... index.html

Most of it we've hashed through in this discussion but I found this interesting:

"There seems to be some evidence that it increases self-objectification," said Fairchild, who surveyed 550 women both online and at Rutgers University in 2006 and 2007. The women -- who ranged in age from 15 to 64 in the international online component and from 18 to 24 in the Rutgers survey of women from central New Jersey -- were asked about their experiences with street harassment.

Catcalling "encourages women to look at themselves as body parts instead of as full, whole, intelligent human beings" and can cause women to fear for their safety, Fairchild says.

I may try to find the actual study, if there was one, on that.

"A lot of men have no idea that women don't like being talked to in this way," she said. "It never crosses their mind, and yelling doesn't educate them. If you yell, they often don't understand why you are upset and so they take it personally."

Often, Kearl says, an assertive, clear response can illicit a kinder reaction than one expects.

"A lot of the time, I find guys will just say, 'Oh, OK, I didn't realize it made you feel that way. Thanks.' "

Doesn't really work for drive-bys, and actually I'm not really sure where it *would* work. I'd be uncomfortable confronting them if they're standing on the street right next to me (the "fear for safety" reason). So I'm not sure what she's saying about how to deal with it, except if you're just talking to your own guy friends and tell them not to do it to other women?

[lillerina]

I went to a party on Saturday and was waiting for a taxi in the street and was wearing a minidress. Not an indecent one, but above the knee. I got a lot of attention but oddly didn't mind so much - I suppose because I knew when I was putting the dress on that I was opening myself up for objectification, whereas in everyday life one doesn't expect to be honked at or yelled at from car windows. I still wasn't a fan, but found it I suppose more acceptable in that context.

[Dragonrider]

I was going to the gym the other day and I got catcalled from a car. She leaned out of her window (passenger side) and screamed at me a lot until the car drove too far away.

I was in my gym clothes, geez! But I thought it was sort of flattering, I don't mind being objectified I guess.

[Kiss The Monkey]

I get catcalled all the time. I'm used to it.

I live amongst illegals and ghetto people. I know that makes me sound racist/un PC, but it's true.

I think that men are always going to be the way they are, and nothing will completely change it. Guys will always honk and hang out windows. Unfortunate, but true.

~:lips::monkey:

[lillerina]

I think that men are always going to be the way they are, and nothing will completely change it. Guys will always honk and hang out windows. Unfortunate, but true.

Maybe until society evolves enough that all people can treat each other with respect, but I have faith that society will reach that point someday. Probably not in our lifetimes, but someday. I don't think that it is an inbuilt behaviour, so it must be socially conditioned, which means it can be changed.

[monk]

personally, I don't know if I want a society that is all refined and polite all the time. There's been times that I've acted like an ass in public, and it's not that I chose to act specifically in public that way, I was just feeling like acting like an ass and I didn't give a shit if the public saw it or not.

[Dragonrider]

I'm totally resurrecting this dead thread just to point out this link on Reuters:
http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEno ... EnoughNews

Yep, a woman got whisted at and then took off her clothes. What I don't understand is, why did she do that to discourage future behavior?

[rowan]

...

I have no idea. Isn't that the opposite of discouraging them?

[Elanna]

To reference something completely non-academic, the same thing happened in Grey's Anatomy when some of the doctors put Izzy's lingerie modelling photos up in the hospital. I guess she was trying to show that that was how the whistling made her feel, it wasn't a harmless joke or flattery, but an entrirely sexual act.

[ladypenelope]

I'm totally resurrecting this dead thread just to point out this link on Reuters:
http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEno ... EnoughNews
Yep, a woman got whisted at and then took off her clothes. What I don't understand is, why did she do that to discourage future behavior?

Wow I can't believe that even made the news over there! Anyway, the follow on from that:

The woman told police she was leaving the country but was arrested on Friday night after allegedly stubbing out a cigarette on the face of a bar worker in Coromandel, the New Zealand Herald reported.
The woman appeared in the Hamilton District Court on Saturday charged with assault with intent to injure.
She was remanded to Waikato Hospital's mental health unit.

And in relation to the actual discussion, I don't often get catcalled but I have been on the receiving end of abusive comments on my looks. All I can say is that those guys were lucky they were in a moving car or I would have smacked them