Feminism in Popular Cinema

Creativity, DIY, reviews, art, gaming and entertainment

Moderators: Neko, Rainbow Dolphins

filmmakingally

Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 0:40 2016

Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby filmmakingally » Sun Sep 18, 1:54 2016

I'm glad to see that Hollywood is catching on to the fact that straight white males aren't the only people who watch movies. Of course there have been numerous feminist films over the years, but most of them are pretty small, as far as their budget and advertising is concerned. I'm seeing signs of that changing.

Three recent examples of feminist films that reached a popular audience -- Star Wars: Force Awakens, Mad Max: Fury Road, and Inside/Out. It's not just the fact that they have female protagonists, it's the themes and undertones of the movie.

Force Awakens: Women don't need to be rescued, we can rescue ourselves. Thanks for the help though.
Fury Road: Women don't need to be rescued, we can rescue ourselves. Thanks for the help though.
Inside/Out: Little girls should feel pressured to be happy all the damn time. They are humans and should be allowed to express sadness.

Which, by the way, every single one of these movies is amazing. I absolutely guarantee that if you have even half a heart, Inside/Out will make you shed both tears of joy and sadness, plus it's just a lot of fun. Amy Poehler kills it, and hers isn't even the best performance.

Hollywood still has a long way to go, but hey, at least we've got these three movies. Your thoughts?

User avatar
Rainbow Dolphins
member
member
Posts: 9673
Joined: Mon Nov 4, 1:48 2002
Location: In your closet. Armed.

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby Rainbow Dolphins » Sun Sep 18, 20:19 2016

I haven't seen Inside Out but I have heard it was really good. I enjoyed Mad Max and I really liked The Force Awakens. Something I enjoyed about these movies is it wasn't The Female Protagonist with a bunch of men supporting- there were many and varied characters who are women.

I still argue that American Psycho is a feminist movie. It is about the lives of men, but it is also about how women are excluded from some arenas, and obviously about the fact that powerful men are able to get away with treating women terribly, especially if the women are prostitutes. The fact that there were lots of women involved in making the movie supports this.
"Everything's gonna be OK soon, maybe tomorrow- maybe the next day." -the Mountain Goats
:chainsaw:!

filmmakingally

Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 0:40 2016

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby filmmakingally » Mon Sep 19, 1:23 2016

Rainbow Dolphins wrote:I still argue that American Psycho is a feminist movie. It is about the lives of men, but it is also about how women are excluded from some arenas, and obviously about the fact that powerful men are able to get away with treating women terribly, especially if the women are prostitutes. The fact that there were lots of women involved in making the movie supports this.


Interesting. When I saw it, I hadn't even come close to understanding or appreciating symbolism in film, nor was I very educated in feminism. I guess I'll have to put it back on my list of movies to see.

User avatar
Sonic#
member
member
Posts: 5094
Joined: Sat Nov 7, 9:37 2009
Location: Georgia, US

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby Sonic# » Mon Sep 19, 7:13 2016

filmmakingally wrote:
Force Awakens: Women don't need to be rescued, we can rescue ourselves. Thanks for the help though.
Fury Road: Women don't need to be rescued, we can rescue ourselves. Thanks for the help though.


Focusing on the two I've seen, I agree that they are more feminist than typical offerings. I liked them both very much. That said, it's funny - I never really thought of The Force Awakens as a feminist film. Instead, I think of it as a shift towards cinema that represents more women and plays more selectively with motifs like the damsel in distress, but that doesn't set aside its lore or themes. It plays homage towards an original film that featured only one female character with significant lines and only a second female character with other lines (Leia and Beru Lars, respectively). Beyond Finn and Rey, Han Solo has the most lines. Leia appears further down the list, behind Kylo Ren, Poe Dameron, and General Hux. (Source: http://polygraph.cool/films/index.html). That illustrates that the broad pattern of the film still fits a traditional space opera, with one central female character among a core and supporting cast of mostly male characters. Maz and Leia are definitely additions, but it's not like they carry equal screen time. The third female supporting character who would have provided some more balance was left on the cutting floor (Sella at the Imperial Senate). The fact we can count to two women in a supporting role is incredible enough, but it's not the radical shift I would expect from a feminist film.

I think a couple of things are going on. I think the blockbuster filmmakers you mention are (as a group) seeing that more inclusivity is a good idea for reaching a broader audience, but this has limits. The balance point for male and female actors isn't 50/50, but probably closer to 70/30 or 80/20. That's the point where some antifeminists will complain about the gender parity but most other people seem pretty satisfied. The choice is "safe," since the choice is not likely to detract from a studio's revenue.

This is progress. However, I think the forces surrounding blockbuster films means that they're going to be more limited compared to smaller filmmakers and studios. Ghostbusters is about at the top end of that. Otherwise, independent filmmakers have the most potential to break out, demonstrate that feminist films are viable, and budge the establishment further.

Pikachu
member
member
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 9:22 2016

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby Pikachu » Mon Sep 19, 14:56 2016

I never really thought of The Force Awakens as a feminist film.


Calling it a feminist film is a bit of a stretch. It's just the disney princess formula applied to the Star Wars franchise. The beautiful outcast who longs for a place to belong. Rey is Ariel, Finn is Sebastian, BB8 is Flounder. You notice how in all these disney films the princess has two comical allies.

If it was feminist, Captain Phasma would have done something.

Fury Road and Ghostbusters are unquestionably feminist films.

I think people need to be alot more selective with what stories they call feminist.

antfancier
member
member
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Sep 3, 14:06 2015
Location: New England

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby antfancier » Mon Sep 19, 16:34 2016

Pikachu wrote: I think people need to be alot more selective with what stories they call feminist.


How do we classify a film as feminist? Are there key features it has to have? Certain subject matter?

I've always sort of felt a movie was feminist if it has a female protagonist who could just as easily be male without the story changing. Growing up, most movies I saw had female characters that were part of a heterosexual romance and thus they had to be female. They may have been a really awesome, badass character but they were still defined as a sexual object to a male character. Whereas in a movie like Mad Max, Furiosa could have been male. It would have felt like a very different movie (and definitely not as good), but the plot would have been the same.

Pikachu
member
member
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 9:22 2016

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby Pikachu » Mon Sep 19, 17:33 2016

antfancier wrote:
Pikachu wrote: I think people need to be alot more selective with what stories they call feminist.

How do we classify a film as feminist? Are there key features it has to have? Certain subject matter?

I've always sort of felt a movie was feminist if it has a female protagonist who could just as easily be male without the story changing. Growing up, most movies I saw had female characters that were part of a heterosexual romance and thus they had to be female. They may have been a really awesome, badass character but they were still defined as a sexual object to a male character. Whereas in a movie like Mad Max, Furiosa could have been male. It would have felt like a very different movie (and definitely not as good), but the plot would have been the same.


That's not a good standard because it measures feminism by the female's similarity to and interchangability with males, which is erasure of the feminine because the current standard of male portrayal is overwhelmingly masculine.

A feminist film is a film where the characters fight for women's rights in some manner and subverts patriarchal normativities.

User avatar
Enigma
member
member
Posts: 3800
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 10:22 2004
Location: Canada

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby Enigma » Mon Sep 19, 18:46 2016

To be perfectly honest Mad Max, Ghostbusters, and The Force Awakens to a much lesser extent restored faith in humanity I hadn't quite realized I had lost. I would for sure classify them as feminist because the female narratives and characters were complex, they (mostly) didn't feed into existing gender narratives and they reframed the conflict to show it from a (actually, as in not the cartoon concept) female point of view.

Inside out... was a very good movie. With interesting female characters with depth. But it also spent a lot of time reinforcing existing gender stereotypes and didn't really challenge the status quo that much. (I guess she was into hockey?) I'm not sure I'd call it a feminist movie.
"Human beings are amazing... we might be horrible, horrible, but we're wonderful too. Otherwise, why go on?"

Pikachu
member
member
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 9:22 2016

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby Pikachu » Mon Sep 19, 19:33 2016

It's likely a false dichotomy anyway. This idea that a film is feminist or not. Most stories have elements one could potentially call "feminist".

Except mine. Haha.

filmmakingally

Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 0:40 2016

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby filmmakingally » Tue Sep 20, 2:14 2016

The reason I argue that Force Awakens is feminist is because it flips the head on the damsel-in-distress trope. Finn keeps trying to save Rey, but she rejects his attempts at heroism, and ultimately, it is Rey who saves Finn.

Pikachu, I agree -- it's a false dichotomy to either label a film feminist or not. There can be something in-between, and maybe that's what Force Awakens is?

As for Inside/Out being feminist, I'll admit that I'm just co-opting the thoughts of others. I personally never would've called it feminist, had I not read this article: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/20 ... _hero.html

I'm a dude, so obviously my perspective is one of an outsider, but that article makes sense to me.

And Pikachu, you're a filmmaker?!

User avatar
Unvoiced_Apollo
member
member
Posts: 530
Joined: Wed Sep 9, 9:54 2015

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby Unvoiced_Apollo » Tue Sep 20, 5:45 2016

filmmakingally wrote:The reason I argue that Force Awakens is feminist is because it flips the head on the damsel-in-distress trope. Finn keeps trying to save Rey, but she rejects his attempts at heroism, and ultimately, it is Rey who saves Finn.

Pikachu, I agree -- it's a false dichotomy to either label a film feminist or not. There can be something in-between, and maybe that's what Force Awakens is?

As for Inside/Out being feminist, I'll admit that I'm just co-opting the thoughts of others. I personally never would've called it feminist, had I not read this article: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/20 ... _hero.html

I'm a dude, so obviously my perspective is one of an outsider, but that article makes sense to me.

And Pikachu, you're a filmmaker?!


Reminds me of that debate a few years back as to whether Frozen was feminist. There was a blog outlining reasons why it wasn't (one of which was Elsa's dress wasn't suitable for combat) & that Sucker Punch was feminist.

I suppose it's not the movies individually we should look at as feminist but the collection as a whole that offers a variety of female protagonists. I want to see as many Furiosa's as I do Cinderella's and every type of character in between. That goes for the male protagonists as well.

Pikachu
member
member
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 9:22 2016

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby Pikachu » Tue Sep 20, 7:05 2016

filmmakingally wrote:
And Pikachu, you're a filmmaker?!


The Force Awakens is that mixed bag in between.

I'm not a film maker, but a graphic novelist. I use a very cinematic style of storytelling though.

Amuro

Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 12:01 2011

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby Amuro » Tue Sep 20, 21:59 2016

I think your only looking at in one way. It's still straight white people for the most part. You wont see a Star Wars movie staring a black woman or an Asian woman. But I'm not entirely blaming this on "Hollywood" either. I kind of think globalization is making media less ethnically diverse. A good part of the world wants to see straight white men and pretty white women in media.

The fact is The Force Awakens and Mad Max are actually decent movies. I didn't see the new Ghost Busters because I'm not a Ghost Busters fan. It would have had to star Angela Bassett, Bryan Cranston, Jamie Foxx, and Hugh Laurie for me to go and see it. But the fact is most of the world still wants a white man as the lead they'll take a white woman too but she better be attractive.

Edit.

I will also add that if you push feminism too much in media it will be bad for business in a lot of countries. I think they should do it anyway but money talks. Remember I'm talking multiple countries not just western ones. As long as movie has a decent script and plot I'll go see it. It's feminist or not feminist I'll most likely see it too. If it's too racists or ultra misogynistic I'll sit out and not watch it. But there are lot of factors that will prevent more movies that are considered "feminist" from being released.

filmmakingally

Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 0:40 2016

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby filmmakingally » Thu Sep 22, 6:38 2016

Amuro wrote: I think your only looking at in one way. It's still straight white people for the most part.


Yes, it's still straight white people, for the most part. No, I'm not looking at it in only one way. You should see the script I'm working on. :)

Amuro wrote:You wont see a Star Wars movie staring a black woman or an Asian woman.


That's just cuz I haven't made a Star Wars movie yet. Maybe some day. One can still wish upon a star, right?

filmmakingally

Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 0:40 2016

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby filmmakingally » Fri Sep 23, 14:06 2016

I hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting after my own post, but I'm hoping to take this conversation in a different direction. I mentioned a few recent examples that I think are feminist, or at least flirt with feminism. Anybody got any other films they'd like to mention? I'm not talking about indie films, blockbusters only.

User avatar
Neko
member
member
Posts: 5761
Joined: Tue Jun 3, 1:33 2003
Contact:

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby Neko » Fri Sep 23, 15:19 2016

We generally discourage double posting. Editing your last post to include any additional thoughts is a good way to avoid that and it's common practice around here. [/mod sombrero]
:sun: The future's bright, Lit up with nowhere to go :earth:

filmmakingally

Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 0:40 2016

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby filmmakingally » Fri Sep 23, 15:25 2016

Neko wrote:We generally discourage double posting. Editing your last post to include any additional thoughts is a good way to avoid that and it's common practice around here. [/mod sombrero]


Cool, thanks!

Pikachu
member
member
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 9:22 2016

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby Pikachu » Sat Sep 24, 21:11 2016

With alot of feminist pressure in recent times, I think there's going to be a wave of female action leads in cinema coming across the horizon.

They will all be late teen, white, slim, brown haired, flat chested, girl next doors with a ponytail. They will be Bella Swan, someone generic, insecure women can project themselves onto, men feel they'd want to protect, and social justice critics will laud.

Got a character that's one of the most iconic female designs in all of fiction?
Image

PROBLEMATIC. TOO BUSTY AND THREATENING.
SOLUTION: MAKE HER KATNISS.
Image

I do believe Katniss and Rey are the first in a new wave with the rebooted Katniss Croft soon to join them on screen. These characters will all be light on flaws, single, independent, non sexual, moderately intelligent and ultimately indistinct. They'll be humble, and only use violence as last resort and in self defence. They won't take a beating. Especially not from a male.They'll be socially constrained to start with, like all disney princesses, and their journey will be about accepting freedom.

This will come to pass. Mark my words. It already has in gaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEsgQlG-j0w

User avatar
Nech
member
member
Posts: 437
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 13:50 2015
Location: Canada

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby Nech » Sun Sep 25, 10:40 2016

Pikachu wrote:These characters will all be light on flaws, single, independent, non sexual, moderately intelligent and ultimately indistinct. They'll be humble, and only use violence as last resort and in self defence. They won't take a beating. Especially not from a male. They'll be socially constrained to start with, like all disney princesses, and their journey will be about accepting freedom.


But if you swapped the genders and were talking about men suddenly it'd be okay? I'm actually enjoying the wave of characters which aren't 2D personalities with boobs. They're way more attractive too, so dunno what you're talking about (or why being attractive is even relevant to a movie characters validity). And besides, Katniss got her ass kicked a lot (Rey didn't get out bruise free either). And the Inside Out movie (dunno why you didn't mention this one, because "kids" movie and they shouldn't be sexualized so you don't care?) is a movie literally about the characters flaws getting by. Do you even watch the movies you complain about?
Where there's smoke, there's fire. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. So just shut up, and bring some water.

Pikachu
member
member
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 9:22 2016

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby Pikachu » Sun Sep 25, 11:52 2016

Nech wrote:
Pikachu wrote:These characters will all be light on flaws, single, independent, non sexual, moderately intelligent and ultimately indistinct. They'll be humble, and only use violence as last resort and in self defence. They won't take a beating. Especially not from a male. They'll be socially constrained to start with, like all disney princesses, and their journey will be about accepting freedom.


But if you swapped the genders and were talking about men suddenly it'd be okay? I'm actually enjoying the wave of characters which aren't 2D personalities with boobs. They're way more attractive too, so dunno what you're talking about (or why being attractive is even relevant to a movie characters validity). And besides, Katniss got her ass kicked a lot (Rey didn't get out bruise free either). And the Inside Out movie (dunno why you didn't mention this one, because "kids" movie and they shouldn't be sexualized so you don't care?) is a movie literally about the characters flaws getting by. Do you even watch the movies you complain about?


Katniss took losses, not ass kickings. Rey was actually bruise free. Just a little dirty. Before, they were defined. Distinct. Now they're all the same generic PC character repackaged. Kids played old school lara croft, watched old school return of the jedi and their innocence wasn't ruined. You sound like a right wing conservative right now, who is simply repackaging the idea in social justice lingo that certain types of female body is immoral. Brown haired miss normal is more attractive to you because they're non threatening to your patriarchal sense of sexual dominance. These women are not in command of their sexuality. They're adolescents kept in a state of immaturity for the sake of "likeability". I like how you associate boobs with 2D personalities, as if sexy representations of women must mean those women are shallow and 2D. I bet you're the sort of "feminist" who wouldn't even give these characters a chance because you'd assume cos they look "sexualized" they must be shallow and beneath you. Do you think they're airheads too? Bimbos?

Leia didn't become dumber, or less worthy of respect because she was in a slave outfit.
Lara Croft was never a complex character not then or now. But at least she was distinct and not Katniss 2.0

Taurwen
member
member
Posts: 166
Joined: Sat Jul 2, 9:33 2016

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby Taurwen » Sun Sep 25, 14:12 2016

It sounds like you're blaming Feminism for making boring protagonists, when generally action movies have boring protagonists almost by design. Instead of comparing Katniss to Lara Croft (Whom I loved in my youth for the disturbing bone cracking sounds she made when you made her jump off a high platform) she should be compared to Luke, Neo, Harry Potter, they are all bland characters made interesting by a) Their Chosen One-ness, & b) Their friends.
Rey is to Harry Potter as Leia is to Hermione
Luke isn't the sexy one Solo is. Katniss isn't the sexy one Cressida is

You can't compare bland female protagonists with interesting female secondary characters. Secondary characters are supposed to be more interesting than the primary character.

User avatar
Sonic#
member
member
Posts: 5094
Joined: Sat Nov 7, 9:37 2009
Location: Georgia, US

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby Sonic# » Sun Sep 25, 15:15 2016

Taurwen wrote:It sounds like you're blaming Feminism for making boring protagonists, when generally action movies have boring protagonists almost by design.


Heh, when I first read Pikachu's latest replies I thought to myself, "So women characters are now prominent enough that there's an archetype for them that doesn't rely heavily on sex appeal, and that's a problem?" I agree, that sounds more like a problem with action films as a genre. I consider it at least a step forward that women characters can have motifs that are equivalently repetitive.

Otherwise, the big fallacy in Pikachu's reply is post hoc, propter hoc. It's the idea that any bad writing or bad design choices are because writers are thinking more about feminism, when bad writing has occurred before, during, and since the time that Lara Croft or (insert earlier comparison) was designed. Just because repetitive and frequent buxom heroines are being redesigned as less buxom heroines doesn't mean that later characters are written less well. I'd argue that expanding roles for women creates greater potential for original storytelling, and if that means also enjoying some light action fare with pretty bald social commentary that doesn't almost always focus on men, all the better.

Furthermore, while heroines like Leia, Rey, and Katniss are more common, the earlier archetypes have also matured and continued. What about Bayonetta? Harley Quinn? The buxom action hero still lives. There are also a number of women in film and games who fit neither category, especially as we stray into different genres.

Pikachu wrote:
Nech wrote: I'm actually enjoying the wave of characters which aren't 2D personalities with boobs.
I like how you associate boobs with 2D personalities, as if sexy representations of women must mean those women are shallow and 2D.


I like* how you interpret Nech's comment as if he was saying that sexy women must be shallow and 2D. I didn't get that from his comment. I read it as loving that the characters aren't "2D personalities with boobs," that is, that they have more going on than their sex appeal. That's fleshed out in the next sentence, where he points out that many of the characters today are still attractive. That seems fair. A character who conveys more depth is better, right? Attractive or not?

More broadly, I wouldn't call any single body type immoral. That's another example of you putting words in the mouths of people you criticize. The criticism I've read and the criticism I write tends to criticize not women's bodies but the predominant mode of designing for heterosexual male ideals. In other words, they're not bad; they're just often written, shot, and designed to function as objects of desire, and I prefer depictions that either break that standard or that give more depth to it.

*Sarcastic use of like, of course. Like you did.

Pikachu
member
member
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 9:22 2016

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby Pikachu » Sun Sep 25, 16:15 2016

Taurwen wrote:It sounds like you're blaming Feminism for making boring protagonists, when generally action movies have boring protagonists almost by design. Instead of comparing Katniss to Lara Croft (Whom I loved in my youth for the disturbing bone cracking sounds she made when you made her jump off a high platform) she should be compared to Luke, Neo, Harry Potter, they are all bland characters made interesting by a) Their Chosen One-ness, & b) Their friends.
Rey is to Harry Potter as Leia is to Hermione
Luke isn't the sexy one Solo is. Katniss isn't the sexy one Cressida is

You can't compare bland female protagonists with interesting female secondary characters. Secondary characters are supposed to be more interesting than the primary character.


Katiss is Katniss. Lara Croft didn't have to be Katniss Croft.

All the predominant feminist call for diversity does is continue Hollywood's trend of casting brown haired, white every women of one body type. The problem already existed among male leads, but activists seem happy to just have the issue be transferred onto female leads. But the difference is that now, men get to be Tom cruise in a vest or Jacob shirtless and so on, or even black as a lead, or even John Goodman, whereas women who stand out in any way that's distinct from the brown haired white girl next door are called problematic and sexist. Even down to body and slut shaming. I'm not blaming Feminism as there are feminists on my side on this. I'm blaming the feminist collectivists who believe story should be altered to fit ideology, and believe fictional women are supposed to be representatives of women as a class, and thus are better when they inherit a set of generic traits deemed politically correct, instead of risking offense by being given "loud" character traits. That just so happens to complement the establishments already existing desire to cast a generic woman in order to avoid "alienation".

Lara Croft under the new paradigm, went from the greatest female character in gaming, to a state of whimpering insecurity, and to a generic Katniss wannabe.

Heh, when I first read Pikachu's latest replies I thought to myself, "So women characters are now prominent enough that there's an archetype for them that doesn't rely heavily on sex appeal, and that's a problem?" I agree, that sounds more like a problem with action films as a genre. I consider it at least a step forward that women characters can have motifs that are equivalently repetitive.


Since the 80's, the vast majority of female leads in cinema has been brown haired miss normal, beginning with Ellen Ripley, yet that is praised among social justice critics looking for diversity, yet the stuff Zac Snyder did with Sucker Punch, represents a break from that, yet is panned due to it's reliance on sex appeal. Which means it never really was about diversity at all, it was just about sex negativity. Anytime Hollywood deems they want to make a "serious" female led film, they will stick to their one skinny body type that doesn't represent the majority of America, with nary a curve in sight. Let alone a C cup or above. They don't exist in serious films.

User avatar
Nech
member
member
Posts: 437
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 13:50 2015
Location: Canada

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby Nech » Mon Sep 26, 13:36 2016

Wow you really had to stretch to twist what I said. I'm somewhat impressed. But Sonic had the right reading of what I said, where I was referring to the "dumb bimbo" archtype that exists in cinemas. It's a pretty popular one too. If you couldn't gather that from it's description, should you even be discussing these things before doing more "homework"?

Pikachu wrote:All the predominant feminist call for diversity does is continue Hollywood's trend of casting brown haired, white every women of one body type.


So I'm supposing Dory, Merida, Sadness, Abby Yates, Patty Tolan, Harley Quinn,Wanda Maximoff, Judy Hopps, Eleven, blah, blah, blah, all fit this description of yours? Keeping in mind these are examples from some of the most popular, mainstream American media and only main characters. But yeah, it's Hollywood's fault you only notice one type of female. Stop projecting and diversify your viewing.

Pikachu wrote:The problem already existed among male leads, but activists seem happy to just have the issue be transferred onto female leads. But the difference is that now, men get to be Tom cruise in a vest or Jacob shirtless and so on, or even black as a lead, or even John Goodman,


I know what you mean, 1988 (Rosanne, John Goodman) was a great year for men everywhere when finally a male who wasn't a buffed up beefcake was cast in something popular! Or maybe you meant 1987 (Lethal Weapon, Danny Glover)? Or maybe 1981 (Pick practically anyone from the cast of Stripes)?

Pikachu wrote:...women who stand out in any way that's distinct from the brown haired white girl next door are called problematic and sexist. Even down to body and slut shaming.


Do you have any specific examples of this? I'm curious which examples of body and slut shaming you're picking up on.

Pikachu wrote:I'm blaming the feminist collectivists who believe story should be altered to fit ideology, and believe fictional women are supposed to be representatives of women as a class, and thus are better when they inherit a set of generic traits deemed politically correct, instead of risking offense by being given "loud" character traits. That just so happens to complement the establishments already existing desire to cast a generic woman in order to avoid "alienation".


Didn't you comment in the Ghostbuster's thread awhile back and complain about how their characters and comedy were over the top aka too loud before you even saw it?

Pikachu wrote:Lara Croft under the new paradigm, went from the greatest female character in gaming, to a state of whimpering insecurity, and to a generic Katniss wannabe.


Are we talking about console games now or cinema still? Because if you meant the Lara Croft movie...we should start talking about bad writing and horrible character design again.

Pikachu wrote:Sucker Punch, represents a break from that, yet is panned due to it's reliance on sex appeal.


Sex appeal does not equate to good characters or writing. It was a generic action film with fancy camera work, I loved it. Great mindless watch. But let's not build it up to be some in depth change from the norm. It was a movie where the story didn't really mean anything but an excuse to set up the next fight scene. It was basically Ong-Bak but instead of a sexy male it was a sexy female.

Pikachu wrote: Which means it never really was about diversity at all, it was just about sex negativity. Anytime Hollywood deems they want to make a "serious" female led film, they will stick to their one skinny body type that doesn't represent the majority of America, with nary a curve in sight. Let alone a C cup or above. They don't exist in serious films.


This comes across almost as body shaming actors who aren't exceptionally curvy or of a certain breast size, because they don't make some imaginary cut-off you have to have sex appeal. Which is funny since you "spoke up" about it earlier in the same post. Spoiler:
People with less curves and less then a C cup can hold sex appeal.
In your posts you ignore a large portion of movies and television that hold diversity. Is this because you didn't like them? Because they come from films outside of genres you enjoy? Or is it simply because their existence doesn't suit your purpose here?
Where there's smoke, there's fire. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. So just shut up, and bring some water.

Pikachu
member
member
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 9:22 2016

Re: Feminism in Popular Cinema

Postby Pikachu » Wed Sep 28, 12:47 2016

Nech wrote:Wow you really had to stretch to twist what I said. I'm somewhat impressed. But Sonic had the right reading of what I said, where I was referring to the "dumb bimbo" archtype that exists in cinemas. It's a pretty popular one too. If you couldn't gather that from it's description, should you even be discussing these things before doing more "homework"?


I'm actually enjoying the wave of characters which aren't 2D personalities with boobs.
- Nech,

You use a sexist false dichotomy of 2D characters with boobs and 3D characters without.

So I'm supposing Dory, Merida, Sadness, Abby Yates, PattyTolan, Harley Quinn,Wanda Maximoff, Judy Hopps, Eleven, blah, blah, blah, all fit this description of yours? Keeping in mind these are examples from some of the most popular, mainstream American media and only main characters. But yeah, it's Hollywood's fault you only notice one type of female. Stop projecting and diversify your viewing.


The only two that aren't infantilized portrayals from kids cartoons are worthy of comment.
Feminists overall panned Harley Quinn and Wanda Maximoff got articles like this: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc ... de/310338/

Funny how both Harley and Wanda have the same body type.
Do you have any specific examples of this? I'm curious which examples of body and slut shaming you're picking up on.


http://www.themarysue.com/power-girl-bo ... e-version/
(cleavage = as unacceptable as having half your penis out according to the above).

http://shetterly.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02 ... s-and.html

Any character who has taken breast reductions due to feminist criticism. Powergirl https://furrysenpai.files.wordpress.com ... tumes1.jpg, Lara Croft, Wonder woman, Spiderwoman http://cdn1-www.craveonline.com/assets/ ... ostume.jpg.

The fact that most feminists I've seen complain when female characters are dressed more revealingly than male, yet still complain if the female character takes her shirt off just like the guy.

The fact that feminists on this very site, have outright broken the 4th wall and completely moved the goalposts for artists and writers in order to make their sex negative criticism stick. They will talk about how a sexualized design makes no sense storywise, yet when a storyline is written that justifies it, they just say Oh the character's not real so can't make their own decisions. As Liana Kerzner said, that shaming of fictional character designs is slut shaming real women through the back door.

Pikachu wrote:I'm blaming the feminist collectivists who believe story should be altered to fit ideology, and believe fictional women are supposed to be representatives of women as a class, and thus are better when they inherit a set of generic traits deemed politically correct, instead of risking offense by being given "loud" character traits. That just so happens to complement the establishments already existing desire to cast a generic woman in order to avoid "alienation".


Didn't you comment in the Ghostbuster's thread awhile back and complain about how their characters and comedy were over the top aka too loud before you even saw it?


Loudly delivered lines are not the same thing as loud character traits. I'm talking about something memorable. Those characters are stereotypes.
Are we talking about console games now or cinema still? Because if you meant the Lara Croft movie...we should start talking about bad writing and horrible character design again.


Does it matter? If I want to see Katniss Everdeen, I'd gowatch hunger games. I wouldn't watch or play tomb raider.

Pikachu wrote:Sucker Punch, represents a break from that, yet is panned due to it's reliance on sex appeal.


Sex appeal does not equate to good characters or writing
.

I never said it did. Unlike what most feminists seem to believe, in fiction, it's neutral.


It was a generic action film with fancy camera work, I loved it. Great mindless watch. But let's not build it up to be some in depth change from the norm.


The VISUAL norm is Rey, Ripley, Sara Connor, Bella Swan every character Sandra Bullock or Jodie Foster has played. Sucker Punch is a clear deviation from that.


Pikachu wrote: Which means it never really was about diversity at all, it was just about sex negativity. Anytime Hollywood deems they want to make a "serious" female led film, they will stick to their one skinny body type that doesn't represent the majority of America, with nary a curve in sight. Let alone a C cup or above. They don't exist in serious films.


This comes across almost as body shaming actors who aren't exceptionally curvy or of a certain breast size, because they don't make some imaginary cut-off you have to have sex appeal.
[/quote]

No, them choosing ONE SKINNY BODY TYPE, is bodyshaming. I'm saying KEEP THAT BODY TYPE AND ADD MORE OTHERS.

And I''ll say this. Objectification has nothing to do with what a character wears or their body type. What matters is character.

Anything else is a right wing Abrahamic religious conservative argument disguised as feminism.


Return to “Mixed Media”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest