Misogyny and victim blaming... yes, they still exist

[Ama]

*I'm going to insert a big Trigger Warning here, as I am going to be discussing uncomfortable subjects and quoting some graphic depictions*

So I have spent the better part of the day reading various discussions on a social network about a particular incident that occurred. The long and short of it is, a woman came out publicly stating that she had been taken advantage of by a man who she and many others respected and trusted, and... well, I don't need to tell you what she said he did to her. At first she got a lot of sympathy, mostly from other women, and other survivors. A couple of other people this man had taken advantage of or hurt came forward against him. That's when people began realizing who was being accused (no names were named in this discussion)... people began coming out of the woodwork to defend him. She got all of the worst comments and accusations you'd expect. She was lying, he was far too nice and respected of a guy to have done it to her, it was her fault, she should have known better. It gets worse. One particular guy doesn't just think it's her fault, he thinks that her assault was justified and acceptable sexual behavior for a man seeing a woman. He didn't just lash out at her, but he lashed out at those showing sympathy for her as well, calling them cunts, berating them for having the gall to call her "strong" for coming forward with her story, accusing them of being Fat, Ugly, or Slutty, and generally spewing the most hate-filled speech I have ever had the displeasure of reading. Here's a few choice samples of things this man ACTUALLY SAID (spoilered because... yeah):

"Now to me the word RAPE has quite a stigma , and Im betting MOST of you werent BRUTALLY raped by strangers which is what it implies to me , not a judgement error , If actual RAPE was the intent here why wasn't she violated in a lower orifice"

"What was so frightening about his god damn cock you wouldnt just suck it in gratitude for all his time and energy ?"

"I've known that cat for 14 years and I'm calling bullshit . Tuffen up buttercup , you went to one of the least macho posing people I know , someone who's skills you recognized as outstanding and worthwhile and you got frightened when your envelope got pushed a little ? Don't run with the big dogs if you can't keep up"

"now if your gonna hate me baby hate me for a GOOD reason , like looking at your picture it wouldnt surprise me at all if you had a dick! hate me for wondering who the fuck raped all those unattractive women ? Was the NBA in town on a rampage ? bet your fat ass it wasn't me ."

"hey do you mind if I call you a fucking cunt ? Id never do that with out asking you first as it wouldnt be polite , is being called a stupid fucking cunt a hard limit for you baby ?"

Now, this story is probably not going to shock all of you, because... well, most of us are aware that crazy, fucked up shit like this happens. But for anyone who doesn't get rape culture, and victim blaming, THIS IS WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. This is what women risk when they dare to speak out about being assaulted. Being ostracized by friends, having your character called into question, being accused of making everything up because obviously you were just angry at your ex. This is the reality countless women fear to suffer if they dare to speak up, and they are right to fear it. Because it happens so often. Just in this one discussion a half dozen women (and one man) were all inspired to speak up, for the first time, about the abuses they themselves had suffered at the hands of others, and how they too had been ostracized and been brushed aside when they dared to reveal the truth. So angry right now.

[great girl wonder]

That's just awful.
I feel like this also speaks to the larger view in society that women's judgement can't be trusted. Rape culture couldn't exist if women(since they are the majority of victims) were trusted to give an honest and accurate account of an incident.
When so many people come forward and say a person has done terrible things to them why do people instantly believe in the morality of the attacker instead of the honesty of the victims?

[Aum]

These people who know the accused... have they had a sexual relationship with him? Because if they haven't, then how do they even really know him in the way the victim does? I've dated some guys who are nice as pie but in bed they are AGGRESSIVE. That's how the guy who assaulted me was. You would never meet his mr. hyde unless you are more deeply involved. People's ignorance of sexual dynamics is just as bad as it is of rape and victim blaming. And the guy making the hateful rant, I'm presuming he has never had a sexual relationship with his friend? Yeah you "know him" right? So therefore that's evidence that this couldn't have possibly happened, even though you're a) not even a woman and b) not a woman he is interested in? Ugh... the stupidity of it all.

When I read stuff like this my blood boils. It makes me feel like the shaming practices in our society will never end, and not just with rape, but with so many other things. Public shaming is just... so incredibly vile and... the lowest common denominator. And on the internet it's even more obscene because people don't have to be held accountable. The victim took all the risk and everyone else just has a field day with it.

It sounds like she has a lot of support, I'd just be concerned for her well being now that her entire community is involved in the debate.

[androkguz]

Now, this story is probably not going to shock all of you, because... well, most of us are aware that crazy, fucked up shit like this happens. But for anyone who doesn't get rape culture, and victim blaming, THIS IS WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. This is what women risk when they dare to speak out about being assaulted. Being ostracized by friends, having your character called into question, being accused of making everything up because obviously you were just angry at your ex. This is the reality countless women fear to suffer if they dare to speak up, and they are right to fear it. Because it happens so often. Just in this one discussion a half dozen women (and one man) were all inspired to speak up, for the first time, about the abuses they themselves had suffered at the hands of others, and how they too had been ostracized and been brushed aside when they dared to reveal the truth. So angry right now.

Thank you very much. As someone who doesn't know anyone that has been raped (that I know of) I find it really hard to believe that people would give this kind of hatefilled comments. I also didn't really understand what rape culture really is (altought, victim blaming is kind of what the name implies)
Anyway, I guess I see somewhat where this "don't trust the victim" vibe is coming. I am, for instance, ignorant of what is the minimum bar for considering something a rape, because apparently I could get a woman to willingly get naked and start having sex with me, in positions that she agrees to and still end up as a monster if I get too energic*. That, and the realization that if victims are to be inmediately trusted, even without evidence and even when the accused rapist is percieved in general as a good man, then essentially any woman I have sex with has the power to destroy forever my reputation with a single lie.
What I absolutely don't understand is two things: presuming that the victim is lying (I get presuming she might be, but not that she is) and believing she is lying when other victims of the same person come along. That's just stupid.

*Actually, that ain't true, I just checked the definition of rape. Ok, I guess that's an ignorant man's opinion. I leave it there because we are talking about ignorant men.

[Ama]

Before you start thinking about how easy it would be for women to accuse you of raping them and destroy your reputation, consider this - In the situation I was describing in my OP, it was a pretty clear cut case of rape. She was not at all interested in the activity and he did it to her anyway knowing this and not caring. 10 other people came forward, men and women, claiming that this man raped or abused them in some fashion. And yet this woman STILL had her integrity questioned and many people are on the side of her attacker. Even if it turns out that she's lying about what happened, her own reputation has been damaged just as badly as her accused rapist's has... perhaps more, at least in her local community. The guy who's been accused of all of this is going to be teaching workshops at a big event organized by these people still, while the girl who accused him has been blacklisted by a lot of people. Even a good number of women are choosing to look the other way where this guy is concerned and place the blame on her, or say that what happened to her isn't so bad, and she should just get over it. And the sad thing is, women KNOW this is what happens to them when they publicly accuse a rapist. So no, I don't think you have to be too worried about falsely being accused of rape. The girl would be committing social suicide just to spite you.

Also, I hate to say this but you are nearly certain to know at least one girl who has been raped. And you are nearly certain to know at least one man who is a rapist. The number of women who will be raped in their lifetime is truly staggering. If none of the women that you know are victims of sexual assault, then they are truly lucky because they have defied the odds. I know there are a number of survivors on this forum, but I'm not going to name names.

[rowan]

Yeah, the reason you don't know that the women in your life have been raped is because they don't tell anyone. Not even other women. It's not a safe thing to talk about, for a number of reasons. This is pretty well documented.

[androkguz]

I know internet rape survivors. And Ama, I really get your point. I did say I don't get how people would question the honesty of a victim if many more victims of the same perpetrator come out.

As for defiying the statistics.... I'm not sure about it.
Acording to this, rape reports per capita vary wildly from country to country (tought, venezuela is not in the list). And yes, I know most rapes are never reported, but even if you assume that only 1 of every 100 rape victims report it, there would still be a very big chance that a person from, say, Japan, had 100 close female friends, none of which was a victim.

[Ama]

My apologies, I failed to read that as though you saw the connection I was attempting to draw there. And yeah, that particular case is just absurd and horrible, and I don't even

On the topic of your rape reports link, let's just focus on the US for now, since that is the main thing I want to talk about here. That same wikipedia article states numbers from between 1 out of every 4, to 1 out of every 6 women in the US as being subjected to a sexual assault or attempted sexual assault in their lifetime. I am not 100% certain from reading the article if the numbers are including suspected levels of underreported attacks or not, though I am guessing it is not. Still, if the number is 1 in 6 even when accounting for those... it is a truly staggering figure. Personally I was under the impression that Japan was a lot worse than that, but I don't have any information sitting in front of me to back that up. Still, it is good to see much lower numbers than the US in any country regardless. If you are from Japan yourself, and those numbers really are representative, then Japan is doing surprisingly well and I guess it is in fact reasonably plausible you don't know anyone who's had to live through it.

[Sonic#]

Acording to this, rape reports per capita vary wildly from country to country (tought, venezuela is not in the list). And yes, I know most rapes are never reported, but even if you assume that only 1 of every 100 rape victims report it, there would still be a very big chance that a person from, say, Japan, had 100 close female friends, none of which was a victim.

That's not mathematically accurate.

Let's assume the statistic you describe, and let's even assume (though this is totally not the case) that the number of women who report is equal to the number of women who are raped. So, the odds of each person you know having been a victim is 1/100, which means the odds of them not being a victim is 99/100. Take that probability for each woman, and multiply them together, and you have the percentage of cases where someone would know 100 women without knowing a victim. That works out to 36.6%. So, all other things being equal, someone has a 63.4% chance of knowing someone who reported a rape.

So sure, if you cook the numbers, 36.6% could be seen as a big number. The actual percentage would likely be smaller, once we account for rapes kept with the victim or with the victim's family, because the benefits of speaking out are meager next to the suspicion and hostility a victim encounters. (In the case of Japan, which you cite in particular, [trigger warning]: http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/05/ ... 5620070515 .)

Activists and lawyers say sentiment towards rape victims remains chilly in a society where many feel the woman may have led the man on, that she is lying or that she could have fought back.

Campaigns by women's groups and legal changes have helped make it easier for rape victims in Japan to speak up and take legal action against perpetrators, but many still stay silent out of shame and fear of criticism.

Let's look at the United States, and use the 1/6 number that Ama cites.

5/6 chance that a woman hasn't been raped.
Let's assume one knows 100 women.
The odds of knowing at least one victim is nearly 100%. (About 1 in a million that you do not.)
50 women?
Still almost 100%.
25 women?
99%.
10 women?
84%.
5 women?
60%.

If someone in the US knew even 25 women casually, there is a very high probability that one of them was a victim of rape. So when Ama brings up your defying the odds, xe knows what xe is talking about.

[androkguz]

Ok, first the disclaimer, because I have seen the kind of trolls you have to deal with in this website: I'm not in any way trying to lecture you about how wrong your views are about this issue about which I bet you know far more than I do. I am, however, trying to reconcile apparently contradictory math with my personal perceptions and trying to learn something. What comes next is my train of tought, not an essay to prove a point to you.

Ok, so
Sonic: The second half of your post is perfectly accurate. I agree that if 1/6 women are rape victims, the odds of not knowing one (if you presume you really meet people at random and rape happens at random) is nearly cero.

As for your correction of my numbers, first of all I gotta mention that I was wrong, but I really don't get where your correction is coming from. I assumed that 1 in every 100 rape victims report it, not that 1 in every 100 woman get raped.
If you assume the statistics I describe (that is, the same rape reports per capita than Japan, according to Wikipedia), then we are talking about 1.2 reports per 100,000 people. That would be 2.4 reports per 100,000 women in that year. If you assume, like I did, that only 1 on every 100 female rape victims report it (I feel this is too few people, but what do I know) then you have 240 victims per 100,000 females that year. The odds of a particular random women being a rape victim in 2009 in this scenario is 2.4/1000~10/4000~1/400
If I know N women, at random, then the odds of them not being rape victims of 2009 is (399/400)ˆN. For 100, that's 78%. For 30 it is 92%
My mistake, was that I initially didn't realize this were yearly figures. Presuming yearly rates are constant, and considering most people I deal with are under 25, the odds of me not knowing a rape victim from neither 2011, 2010.... and 1986 is (0.78)^25~0.002 a.k.a. 0.2%.

That would mean that I definitely know some rape victims... the problem with that number is that it can really vary a lot if I tweek the parameters.

Ok, so what's going on?
If I take japan's number, I get the result that a given female has a chance of reaching 50 without being one of those female who report a being a rape victim of (99,997/100,000)^50 which is a 99.8% chance. Assuming no one reports twice, that means 1 in every 500 japanesse women will be the one that reports being raped. If we also assume that 1/5 women will be raped by the time they get 50, then the presumtion that only 1 of every 100 rape victims reports it becomes true.

That is such a low number that I gotta scrutinize it.

As far as I can tell, the studies that report 1/4 or 1/6 women get raped get to this number by asking groups questions like "has this ever happened to you?" and then observing how much people answer positively to things that fit in the definition of rape. And there are many kinds of rape, some of which are not at all what comes to my mind when I think about rape and rape victims. For instance, for me, minors having consensual sex with adults is a completely different problem from rape.
If I count the women I know that had consensual sex with adults while they were minors as rape victims (and I guess I have to, by definition) then the number skyrockets to much more than half the women I know, most of which are either proud or not ashamed about it. Hell, by that definition, so many guys I know are rapist. This is such a common practice in country.
Some other kinds of rape I can see why I wouldn't know about, like marital rape.
But violent rape by strangers? No, I have not heard about it happening to anyone I know, even tought I live in an extremely violent country. It might have something to do with what happens to convicted rapists in prisons in my country.

[deanimal]

Violent rape by strangers is not common, you re correct, especially in industrialized countries. Most rape survivors knew their attacker personally. In fact, very often, it was someone quite close to them, a current partner or a former partner or a good friend. This does not mean that the rape was not "violent" and was not extremely traumatic. In fact, I would argue that these rapes can sometimes be more traumatic (I don't like quantifying trauma, but bear with me) because the survivor has had their ideas of love and trust turned upside down and likely still has loving/afraid/complicated feelings toward their rapist. Or their life may become a living hell because they can't accuse a friend of rape without destroying their own social circle, forcing them to sit with what happened.

I am not talking about older minors who legitimately consent to sex with an adult, which I don't think is problematic even though it is often illegal.

[Aum]

androkguz, this may be anecdotal, but almost all of my female friends have told me that they have either suffered attempted rape, rape, or being molested as a child by a man. I'm really close to all my friends and they know I am not a judgmental person, so maybe it's why I know this information. The results are the same among several of my female family members. Just because your friends have not opened up to you about it does not mean it never happened.

Some survivors deeply repress the experience, especially if it happened to them younger. Even if not repressed, they may not want to admit to it, or label it as rape because of fears around stigma. It may be something so private to them that they have never told anyone.

It's hard to be precisely accurate with statistics but they do give a general sense of what is going on. The numbers are unacceptably high.

[androkguz]

deanimal: Ok, that makes everything make a lot more sense now: the statistics, the lack of report and even the rather absurd reactions that people have when this things are revealed.

Aum: well, apparently you dodge the statistics in the other way, don't you? Yeah, that's not a funny joke. As for repressing or not labeling as rape... ok, I can totally see that happening, there is a lot childhood/teenage sexual experiences I myself would rather pretend never happened.

[Aum]

I'm not dodging anything. The numbers are high, you're just splitting hairs.

Having a bad sexual experience is not the same as rape.

Are you done trolling this thread yet?

[androkguz]

Are you done trolling this thread yet?

I feel this is really unfair, but because the last thing I want is for people to think that, I'm shutting up.

[Eravial]

Aum, I think you may have misinterpreted something androkguz said. I think when he said "dodging statistics," he wasn't accusing you of not being consistent with facts, he was just commenting on the fact that, given the statistics, it would be rather strange and unlikely to either know no sexual assault survivors, or for every woman (or the vast majority of women) you know to be a sexual assault survivor. By saying that almost all of the women you know have experienced some form of sexual assault, you show that you are somewhat of a statistical anomaly.

androkguz, I don't think you're trolling, but

ok, I can totally see that happening, there is a lot childhood/teenage sexual experiences I myself would rather pretend never happened.

is really insensitive because you're effectively saying that an unenjoyable but consensual experience is comparable to rape. Were you trying to suggest that?

It's possible you weren't trying to compare your consensual experiences to rape, but rather were saying that if an unenjoyable experience is bad enough to want to repress it, rape must be that much more so, but if that's the case, it is unclear.

You seem to be somewhat ill-versed in rape statistics and definitions based on earlier comments in the thread (which isn't a bad thing - you can't be expected to know things if you haven't learned them yet, and you seem to be open to learning). In case you aren't aware, men and boys can be assaulted, by both men and women, and the fact that you mentioned childhood sexual experiences suggests the possibility that some of these experiences were actually assault, but you didn't recognize them as such.

Whatever the case, I think it would be in your interest to address the statement of yours I quoted above, knowing that it does come across as extremely insensitive.

[androkguz]

I believe, Eravial, that you understood exactly where I was coming from. Both with regards to the statistics comment and with regards to the repressed memories.
I did not addressed it because I figured that whatever I said might* lead to more arguing. About tangential things. And might possibly get personal.

My intention with the quoted sentence was not to compare but to extrapolate. I realize it is unclear if you read it in a vacuum but I tough I was making a good job establishing I wasn't trying to troll. I mean, I have admitted I was wrong twice, I have made the disclaimer, I haven't even told anyone so far that they are wrong about any statement related to the topic (altought, I have corrected people about misreading the conversation), I thank every response. Now I believe I was partially wrong: I wasn't doing a good enough job at establishing that.

Well, to be perfectly clear: I don't believe rape to be comparable to consensual unenjoyable sex. What I meant is that if shameful unenjoyable sex is bad enough to repress or pretend it never happened, then it is only logical that something much worst, like rape, would be too.

As for my own childhood experiences... does peer pressure when you are young count as assault?

*edited from "would"

[deanimal]

As for my own childhood experiences... does peer pressure when you are young count as assault?

Probably, yes. Consent is not really consent if it's not given voluntarily and enthusiastically. Pressured or coerced consent doesn't count. I'm really sorry that whatever happened to you happened.

[Tookie]

For the record, the definition of sexual assault that I hear the most often is "Any unwanted act of a sexual nature." So if it was unwanted, then yes.

[androkguz]

^ I'm really undecided how I feel about that
Seriously, I have rewritten this post like 20 times xD

[Tookie]

I mean, it's also totally up to you whether you want to define it as sexual assault or not. What I should have said was that "So if it was unwanted, then yes, you could call it that if you wanted to."

Deciding what language you want to use on your own terms is really important and I feel like I was pushing it on you, and I apologize for that.

[propatriachy]

It's not in a mans nature to compete or 'lash out' at a woman.

If a man behaves this way it's because he feels threatened or emasculated it's a natural emotional reaction, if subtle/emotional abuse of men was addressed then violence against women would drop dramatically.

[monk]

It's not in a mans nature to compete or 'lash out' at a woman.

If a man behaves this way it's because he feels threatened or emasculated it's a natural emotional reaction, if subtle/emotional abuse of men was addressed then violence against women would drop dramatically.

either you're generalizing too much or not enough. let me rewrite your post so it makes sense.

It's not in a persons nature to compete or 'lash out' at another person.

If a person behaves this way it's because they feel threatened or endangered and it's a natural emotional reaction, if subtle/emotional abuse of people were addressed than violence would drop dramatically.

The problem with your post is it seems to be making the argument that physical violence in response to verbal abuse is somehow justified. It's not. Not ever. I'm not saying verbal abuse is acceptable in any way, all abuse is bad, but the response to verbal abuse is either leave or take action to change the dynamic that is causing it to happen through discussion.

[propatriachy]

Verbal/emotional abuse is just as damaging as physical, society doesn't always recognise that but any psychologist or therapist will.

Also monk with they way you changed some of the words Your belittling minimising male/ female gender differences which isn't a cool thing to do or for a male to hear.

If you torment a dog long enough eventally it will snap, any dog will unless you surpress it so much it just gives up or medicate it, humans are no different.

[Ama]

Okay, so you're insulted because you're being lumped in with the opposite gender? I'm sorry but the sexes are much more similar than they are dissimilar. How exactly does it hurt you to be told that men and women respond in similar ways to emotional abuse, etc? What stake do you have in being fundamentally different from women? The problem is that there are many different kinds of people out there, and we can't pigeon hole people based on preconceived notions of gender. Because while we do tend to share many fundamental characteristics, even between man and man or woman and woman, there can be very significant differences in how we think and act. So the idea is less that we lump everyone together, and more that we try to account for and be understanding of all different types of people out there. We recognize that there are men who act more like the traditional idea of a woman, and vice versa. We try to understand that you can't ascribe certain traits to someone based solely on their sex. So we're not saying that men and women are the same, we're saying that there are sufficient women who feel similarly that we can't ignore them in the discussion.

On the other hand, what does this have to do with misogyny or victim blaming? Are you trying to blame women for emasculating men and thereby turning them into rapists? Because that would be hilarious in a sad, sad way. But it looks like you are attempting to turn this topic into a topic about men, in which case I would ask you to create your own topic to address that argument in a relevant context. Emotional abuse is certainly not beneficial though, regardless of who is delivering it.