Some interrogations concerning "the makeup norm"

[Mathmo]

Yes girls are made to care more about their physical appearance than everything else. But men have a wider range of things that we get judged on. Our personnalty. Our career. Our hobbies (no one frowns if a girl collects Barbies, but a man collecting GI Joes ?). Our behavior. Our social status (no one is bothered if a girl doesn't have many friends). The music we listen to ("emo" and "goth" girls are "hot", but their male respectives are "weird".)

Rubbish. Women are also judged on a very wide range of things. Plenty of people are bothered if girls don't have many friends, for example, and plenty of people think "emo" or "goth" girls are "losers" or "weird". I agree with you that self esteem issues aren't limited to any particular gender, but I very much do not agree with your perception of female vs male experience.

[Sonic#]

I second what Mathmo said. Women are judged on personality (why isn't she happy?; why doesn't she like men/other women?), career (can she really work in a hard science? how can she do this job if she wants to be a mother? can I speak to a man?), hobbies (gamer girls just pretend to like games to get men; she must like baseball because her boyfriend likes it), behavior (bad choice dumping him, since her biological clock must be ticking; why didn't she speak up during the meeting? why did she let herself get interrupted?), social status (she's just a lazy bum; if she'd kept her legs closed, she wouldn't be on welfare now) and "music" (of course she likes Taylor Swift; goth girls are so unapproachable) all the time. Also -

All we care about is women's approval. All we do, all we say, is all calculated to make sure girls like us. Why do you think all men have this obsession with being alpha males ? It's because we're told that's what women approve of. And we worry about our appearance too, a lot.

I've seen so many guys with shattered self-estime because they thought they weren't approves of by girls...

That doesn't hold true for me. So we (I assume you mean "men") don't care about friendships, about careers, about hobbies like sports, hunting, or carpentry? Quite frequently, I have social interactions with other people where my goal is not to be liked or validated in another person's eyes. I might be ordering a tea, or asking someone about an interesting thing I overheard, or meeting a friend for lunch in order to share interests and catch up. Validation feels good, sure, but that's not the point of most interactions, let alone all of them. Furthermore, social interactions help with self-esteem, but they're not the only source of it, such that treating heterosexual interactions as the beginning and end of social interaction is quite unbalanced. If anything, they should seek help for misplaced desire, figuring out a healthier basis for defining themselves.

Also, it's mightily presumptive to assume that all men operate compulsively and exclusively as heterosexuals, or that all men worry about being alpha males.

[Zormingash]

Rubbish. Women are also judged on a very wide range of things. Plenty of people are bothered if girls don't have many friends, for example, and plenty of people think "emo" or "goth" girls are "losers" or "weird". I agree with you that self esteem issues aren't limited to any particular gender, but I very much do not agree with your perception of female vs male experience.

All i can say is that i disagree. From my experience at least, it seems women are judged way less on a large variety of factors, but way more when it comes to appearance and percieved so-called "objective" attractiveness.

I second what Mathmo said. Women are judged on personality (why isn't she happy?; why doesn't she like men/other women?), career (can she really work in a hard science? how can she do this job if she wants to be a mother? can I speak to a man?), hobbies (gamer girls just pretend to like games to get men; she must like baseball because her boyfriend likes it), behavior (bad choice dumping him, since her biological clock must be ticking; why didn't she speak up during the meeting? why did she let herself get interrupted?), social status (she's just a lazy bum; if she'd kept her legs closed, she wouldn't be on welfare now) and "music" (of course she likes Taylor Swift; goth girls are so unapproachable) all the time. Also -

My post was replying to someone who was talking about each gender trying to appeal to the other in terms of appearance, and attractiveness, not acceptance in the workplace or in university.

That doesn't hold true for me. So we (I assume you mean "men") don't care about friendships, about careers, about hobbies like sports, hunting, or carpentry? Quite frequently, I have social interactions with other people where my goal is not to be liked or validated in another person's eyes. I might be ordering a tea, or asking someone about an interesting thing I overheard, or meeting a friend for lunch in order to share interests and catch up. Validation feels good, sure, but that's not the point of most interactions, let alone all of them. Furthermore, social interactions help with self-esteem, but they're not the only source of it, such that treating heterosexual interactions as the beginning and end of social interaction is quite unbalanced. If anything, they should seek help for misplaced desire, figuring out a healthier basis for defining themselves.

Also, it's mightily presumptive to assume that all men operate compulsively and exclusively as heterosexuals, or that all men worry about being alpha males.

Is it really necessary for every single post to have a disclaimer specifying that nothing i say applies to every single man in the world without exception ? It's such common sense that i do not feel like i have to specify it.

[lillerina]

Yes, because gay people don't exist.

[Zormingash]

Yes, because gay people don't exist.

Oh right. So now, every time i use the word "men", i have to replace it with :

"most, not all (according to my own estimations that are in no way scientific but circumstancial), entirely heterosexual, mentally capable, not otherwise romantically engaged, old enough, fully permitted to consent and/or engage in such an act men living in the countries which hold social norms closely related to mine which they abide to". Sure, that's convenient.

Or maybe people could not be pedantic about words that do not impact the overall point (why, do you think i do not know gay men exist or think that it applies to exactly every human male on Earth ?) because this is not a legal contract.

Either way works.

[Sonic#]

^ Don't be petty. If you're going to make judgments based on gross generalizations about how "all men" behave, we're allowed to point out that your definition of "all men" is very narrow and short-sighted. I'll quote you again:

All we care about is women's approval. All we do, all we say, is all calculated to make sure girls like us. Why do you think all men have this obsession with being alpha males ? It's because we're told that's what women approve of. And we worry about our appearance too, a lot.

All men. We. I'd still disagree with your points if you were saying, "Most men only care about women's approval" or "A typical man always performs to attract women," because they aren't true. I listed many other things that men care about, because so many interactions can't be reduced to the attractions between men and women. Even in the case of makeup, there are many reasons why people can wear makeup that have nothing to do with attracting someone else. When I dress in a suit and tie, I'm doing a lot of things that don't involve attracting women. Partly I just have a desire to look spiffy. Partly, I am meeting the expected dress code of an occasion. Partly, I feel more savvy socially when I'm in a suit. Your explanation excluded all of these possibilities: "All we care about is women's approval."

My post was replying to someone who was talking about each gender trying to appeal to the other in terms of appearance, and attractiveness, not acceptance in the workplace or in university.

Do you think that examples more relevant to appealing to others don't exist? Oh, they do. And from the practice of "negging" (people giving mild negative reinforcement to their partners in order to make them anxious and compliant) to all the examples I gave that actually do pertain to dating, I don't think you can question that women get plenty of negative attention. That goes counter to what you were trying to suggest: that men receive more negative judgments, and thus equality in wearing make-up would mean that women would actually be judged less.

Of course men get judged on more than their appearance. However, you have no grounds to claim that men get judged more.

EDIT: Yes, you did claim that.

But men have a wider range of things that we get judged on.

[Zormingash]

It was an oxymoron. I thought it was clear.

I mean...there is not point trying to convince me that there are all sorts of different scenarios and possibilities. I know there are. it's obvious. Everyone knows there are.

And I didn't claim men are judged more.

[Butterfly North]

Oh right. So now, every time i use the word "men", i have to replace it with...

No, just every time you use the words "all men" you should then follow it with statements you genuinely believe apply to all men. That's how words operate.

Edited so it actually makes sense!

[cwbyrvr]

Not even all straight men are constantly concerned about the approval of women. It's best to avoid broad generalizations of what all men/all women feel and believe if you want to be taken seriously.