Yuck Yuck Yuck - continued from "Ranting"

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lexiewalt

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Yuck Yuck Yuck - continued from "Ranting"

Postby lexiewalt » Mon Jan 16, 8:23 2017

Had more to say and I felt this title on "Ranting" had turned into a pro and anti- guns diatribe. Anyway my comments are feminist in nature.

Just to say that following my "gent on the bus" post ("Yuck yuck yuck" on Ranting), friends and colleagues have come out of the woodwork and told me their experiences.
One said her answer to a man looking at her chest was to stare at his crotch and look disappointed!

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Re: Yuck Yuck Yuck - continued from "Ranting"

Postby Nech » Mon Jan 16, 8:37 2017

lexiewalt wrote:One said her answer to a man looking at her chest was to stare at his crotch and look disappointed!


That is gold, love it! XD
Where there's smoke, there's fire. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. So just shut up, and bring some water.

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Re: Yuck Yuck Yuck - continued from "Ranting"

Postby Taurwen » Tue Jan 17, 7:52 2017

It's really hard, I'm not sure most men really understand. My sister recently "made a friend" while waiting for the bus when a guy bummed a cigarette. He kept talking to her until the bus got there, got on with her and got off at her stop (while at the bus stop he mentioned he was going in a totally different direction and only decided to go to a friend's mid transit). He thankfully went down the street before hers so didn't follow her all the way but it really freaked her out. She was telling my mom about it and asked "What did I do wrong? How do I avoid that next time? If he had followed me all the way home would it have been better to keep walking past my building so he doesn't know where I live or to try to lose him at the door?" and all my mom could say was "Just hope it doesn't happen again." which is just so frustrating on sooo many levels.

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Re: Yuck Yuck Yuck - continued from "Ranting"

Postby Unvoiced_Apollo » Tue Jan 17, 15:05 2017

Taurwen wrote:It's really hard, I'm not sure most men really understand. My sister recently "made a friend" while waiting for the bus when a guy bummed a cigarette. He kept talking to her until the bus got there, got on with her and got off at her stop (while at the bus stop he mentioned he was going in a totally different direction and only decided to go to a friend's mid transit). He thankfully went down the street before hers so didn't follow her all the way but it really freaked her out. She was telling my mom about it and asked "What did I do wrong? How do I avoid that next time? If he had followed me all the way home would it have been better to keep walking past my building so he doesn't know where I live or to try to lose him at the door?" and all my mom could say was "Just hope it doesn't happen again." which is just so frustrating on sooo many levels.


It's heartbreaking to read your sister asking as if she were the one to do something wrong. It's also disheartening for guys like me because I do empathize (as best I can for being a guy) which means being aware of these actions by other men. But it also makes me wonder how I would be viewed if I did a cold approach.

But even though I know it sucks for me because of these guys the worst I have to worry about is perspective. It's unfortunate woman still can't feel right about men because of shit like this.

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Re: Yuck Yuck Yuck - continued from "Ranting"

Postby lexiewalt » Wed Jan 18, 5:46 2017

Taurwen, that's horrible.
But you're right - most guys don't realise how terrifying they can be.
A few times I've had "sorry I'm not worrying you am I?" as if they want to show their caring side. That on the face of it is good, BUT what am I supposed to say? "Well actually you are, I'm frightened to death and I'd rather you left me alone"?
I think there needs to be tons more education of boys and men. Not just warnings to us about going places alone or talking to strange men, but telling them not to approach females outside.
If they're DESPERATE to approach or strike up conversations with us, do it in a busy room (a pub, a club), give up IMMEDIATELY if we turn them down, and NEVER approach us if we're alone. I know men will say "that's harsh" or "it gives women too many rights", but what's more important - their machismo or our safety?
We've all had men follow us or APPEAR to follow us and we all know how frightening that can be, so it's time some rules like that were made.
Apart from anything else, if a man broke a rule, we'd know immediately that he wasn't worthy and that we were correct in calling the police!

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Re: Yuck Yuck Yuck - continued from "Ranting"

Postby Unvoiced_Apollo » Wed Jan 18, 17:24 2017

lexiewalt wrote:Taurwen, that's horrible.
But you're right - most guys don't realise how terrifying they can be.
A few times I've had "sorry I'm not worrying you am I?" as if they want to show their caring side. That on the face of it is good, BUT what am I supposed to say? "Well actually you are, I'm frightened to death and I'd rather you left me alone"?
I think there needs to be tons more education of boys and men. Not just warnings to us about going places alone or talking to strange men, but telling them not to approach females outside.
If they're DESPERATE to approach or strike up conversations with us, do it in a busy room (a pub, a club), give up IMMEDIATELY if we turn them down, and NEVER approach us if we're alone. I know men will say "that's harsh" or "it gives women too many rights", but what's more important - their machismo or our safety?
We've all had men follow us or APPEAR to follow us and we all know how frightening that can be, so it's time some rules like that were made.
Apart from anything else, if a man broke a rule, we'd know immediately that he wasn't worthy and that we were correct in calling the police!



I actually don't think that's fair to men or women, for women to continue to be afraid to be approached when by themselves. Parking lots and dark alleys not withstanding, if you're in a public place with enough people around, you shouldn't have to feel this fear about what a guy could do when he approaches should you find yourself out and about but otherwise not with anyone else. And I'm certainly not trying to dismiss your feelings because while you or any other women shouldn't have to feel scared, you are and for legitimate reasons. But to set up these rules never to be broken really IMO just allows women to continue to be scared of men and in doing so, it's actually women who have less rights as a result.

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Re: Yuck Yuck Yuck - continued from "Ranting"

Postby Taurwen » Thu Jan 19, 12:37 2017

I think there's a distinct difference between being afraid of men (which I'm not) and being afraid of men who approach me when I'm by myself (meaning not only am I personally alone but there's no one else around).
I'm also pissed off that politeness dictates that I talk back to a man who is talking to me even if I've given off all the cues of not wanting to talk, and men can get potentially angry and dangerous if we're not polite so my survival instinct tells me to humour them.

99% of men walking down the street are good guys. 97 percent of them would never bother a woman beyond asking directions. It shouldn't need to be an official rule because it's already an unspoken one. A lot of men just don't understand how important it is to women.

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Re: Yuck Yuck Yuck - continued from "Ranting"

Postby Sonic# » Thu Jan 19, 16:11 2017

Unvoiced_Apollo wrote:I actually don't think that's fair to men or women, for women to continue to be afraid to be approached when by themselves.


I don't like the underlying message to this (not assigning intention by the way), which is that women being afraid is unfair to men and women, as if they either shouldn't be afraid or (what might be the end result of this) shouldn't look afraid for the sake of men's feelings. If it is unfair, that's a direct result of behaviors that provide reason to be afraid, and not the fear itself. Regulating that fear falls back into these codes for politeness, which urge women to respond in a certain way to avoid being targeted:
Taurwen wrote:I'm also pissed off that politeness dictates that I talk back to a man who is talking to me even if I've given off all the cues of not wanting to talk, and men can get potentially angry and dangerous if we're not polite so my survival instinct tells me to humour them.


Taurwen, I hear you articulating a "rule never to be broken" (to quote Apollo) that hurts women directly: women need to be nice as a survival instinct. Is enforcing another "rule not to be broken" to address that really as bad as that? I don't know, but I'm not dismissing the advice to never approach someone who <has sign that they don't want to talk> out of hand.[1] As a social expectation, that doesn't sound nearly as bad.

[1] If anything, I may be resistant to lexie's specific idea that the police arrest anyone approaching women because it represents an uncomfortable extension of police power that would likely result in outcomes reminiscent of Jim Crow laws against black people approaching white women. I don't have faith that the law would be applied equally, just as it seems like some groups of women are more vulnerable to harassment [and have less recourse] than others.

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Re: Yuck Yuck Yuck - continued from "Ranting"

Postby lexiewalt » Fri Jan 20, 7:11 2017

Taurwen wrote:I think there's a distinct difference between being afraid of men (which I'm not) and being afraid of men who approach me when I'm by myself (meaning not only am I personally alone but there's no one else around).
I'm also pissed off that politeness dictates that I talk back to a man who is talking to me even if I've given off all the cues of not wanting to talk, and men can get potentially angry and dangerous if we're not polite so my survival instinct tells me to humour them.

99% of men walking down the street are good guys. 97 percent of them would never bother a woman beyond asking directions. It shouldn't need to be an official rule because it's already an unspoken one. A lot of men just don't understand how important it is to women.


Yes - it's an "unspoken" rule but men seem happy to forget this and force me to talk to them cos, as you say, "politeness" dictates it. I've tried ignoring them but that's worse - especially if it isn't just one guy you're suffering.
I really cannot understand why men are programmed to talk to me (and other women) when we're alone.
But I don't see why I shud take a taxi home from the station or find a "mate" to walk with me - there are usually ppl around anyway but some men still find a way of saying something to me (I mean more than the standard drunken "watcha luv" which is the least of my worries).
Taurwen, do men really ask u for directions? I would have thought that was an obvious attempt to strike up a conversation (after all men I know NEVER ask for directions!).

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Re: Yuck Yuck Yuck - continued from "Ranting"

Postby Unvoiced_Apollo » Fri Jan 20, 7:37 2017

Sonic# wrote:I don't like the underlying message to this (not assigning intention by the way), which is that women being afraid is unfair to men and women, as if they either shouldn't be afraid or (what might be the end result of this) shouldn't look afraid for the sake of men's feelings. If it is unfair, that's a direct result of behaviors that provide reason to be afraid, and not the fear itself. Regulating that fear falls back into these codes for politeness, which urge women to respond in a certain way to avoid being targeted:


I'm terribly sorry if that's the message I'm sending. Because I do agree that there are very real reasons for women to feel fearful. My argument is that these rules might keep women in the status quo of being afraid. I don't know how to express this thought any further though into an alternate solution.

Taurwen wrote:I'm also pissed off that politeness dictates that I talk back to a man who is talking to me even if I've given off all the cues of not wanting to talk, and men can get potentially angry and dangerous if we're not polite so my survival instinct tells me to humour them.
.


The problem is, everyone has different signals. An outgoing person welcoming an approach tends to have open body language. A shy person will be closed, hoping someone will open that book. Body language cues are not as universal as we make them out to be. A guy might misread your cues as testing him to see what kind of ethic he has with regard to the work he'd put into relationship (read: playing hard to get). Then you have the dreaded introverted eath stare that one might contend with that's just their neutral expression.

That said, misread cues and all, the issue I would say comes from the sense of entitlement. I'm certainly not entitled to your good graces nor is any man. While politeness dictates one action, you certainly should feel free to tell me or any other guy to "screw off" without fear of retaliation. And it's unfortunate we're still in an environment where no matter the choice you make, you still have a legitimate fear.

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Re: Yuck Yuck Yuck - continued from "Ranting"

Postby Taurwen » Fri Jan 20, 11:35 2017

I was thinking of general stranger interactions. I do live in an urban environment where it's not uncommon to double check you're on the right streetcar or how exactly to get to some landmark.
Funnily enough I dropped something yesterday and a young man chased me down a block to give it back, that was nice of him and he just went on his way afterwards.

I guess what gets me is that women don't try to strike up conversation with me. If they can go about their day without trying to make random friends on the street why do some men think it's such an important part of social interaction?
And by cues I meant earphones in, book out, pretended not to hear the first couple thing a guy says. Playing hard to get in a relationship may be a thing. Playing hard to get when someone you don't know from Adam approaches you on the street isn't a thing. We have bars, internet meet up groups, book clubs, any number of social venues for making friends, there's no reason to cold approach a single woman on the street, or bus, or park.

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Re: Yuck Yuck Yuck - continued from "Ranting"

Postby lexiewalt » Sat Jan 21, 6:36 2017

Taurwen I think we're generally in agreement - especially as you've finished with really what I was saying be4 about rules - there are places where men can approach me if they're so inclined (goodness knows why they want to!), but not on the street.
Yes women not approaching us is a good point - I know that if a woman does approach me it's a genuine query (or even, as happened once, an attempt to escape a man who was hassling HER).
The cues - I have this theory that men see me (and other women) as a challenge. So I've been wearing earphones and been aware that a man has been trying to ask me something. As you say, politeness dictates that I remove an earphone. On that occasion he said "now you're listening, which bus are you waiting for?". Of course I resisted the tempatation to say "what's it to you?" in case he took it as the start of an argument. I tried to answer without giving anything away.
But that's another example of us losing again - I feel I NEED to answer without getting annoyed, so in turn they take it that I'm a"decent" person who wants a chat! Aaaargh

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Re: Yuck Yuck Yuck - continued from "Ranting"

Postby Unvoiced_Apollo » Sat Jan 21, 9:39 2017

Taurwen wrote:I was thinking of general stranger interactions. I do live in an urban environment where it's not uncommon to double check you're on the right streetcar or how exactly to get to some landmark.
Funnily enough I dropped something yesterday and a young man chased me down a block to give it back, that was nice of him and he just went on his way afterwards.

I guess what gets me is that women don't try to strike up conversation with me. If they can go about their day without trying to make random friends on the street why do some men think it's such an important part of social interaction?
And by cues I meant earphones in, book out, pretended not to hear the first couple thing a guy says. Playing hard to get in a relationship may be a thing. Playing hard to get when someone you don't know from Adam approaches you on the street isn't a thing. We have bars, internet meet up groups, book clubs, any number of social venues for making friends, there's no reason to cold approach a single woman on the street, or bus, or park.


Thanks for the patience/insight. I personally never would approach someone with those cues then. I guess the issue is men are taught to be opportunists, to seize the moment without regard for feelings or cues.

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Re: Yuck Yuck Yuck - continued from "Ranting"

Postby Enigma » Sat Jan 21, 16:21 2017

Just had this happen to me coming back from the mother fucking women's march. I was back in my neighbourhood so no friends around. Dude got off at my stop loudly saying something about cigarettes he was selling. I ignored him and speed walked to catch a light to lose him. Dude yells STOP! really aggressively as I'm halfway across the street. So aggressively that I wonder if he's about to mug me or something. Follows me. Yells HEY!! incredibly aggressively (like if this was a movie he'd definitely have a gun on me at this point and it sounds like I murdered someone he loved or something). I continue to ignore him because engaging seems like a terrible idea at this point. There's hardly anyone around, fairly sure I'm going to die at this point. Continue speedwalking towards a women with a buddle buggy - could be an ally. Get to a corner and risk a look back. Someone's still coming up the street. Book it down the last street hoping to lose him in the fog. Get inside. Fucking full of adrenaline. Annd wasn't murdered. Today is a success.

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Re: Yuck Yuck Yuck - continued from "Ranting"

Postby Taurwen » Mon Jan 23, 7:53 2017

Lexiewalt, I think we are very much in agreement, I'm sorry I was trying to expand on your ideas not state them as my own (although I have thought the same) that wasn't clear at all. While I'm not for legislating interactions I think everything else is spot on.

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Re: Yuck Yuck Yuck - continued from "Ranting"

Postby Nech » Mon Jan 23, 8:53 2017

Enigma wrote:Just had this happen to me coming back from the mother fucking women's march. I was back in my neighbourhood so no friends around. Dude got off at my stop loudly saying something about cigarettes he was selling. I ignored him and speed walked to catch a light to lose him. Dude yells STOP! really aggressively as I'm halfway across the street. So aggressively that I wonder if he's about to mug me or something. Follows me. Yells HEY!! incredibly aggressively (like if this was a movie he'd definitely have a gun on me at this point and it sounds like I murdered someone he loved or something). I continue to ignore him because engaging seems like a terrible idea at this point. There's hardly anyone around, fairly sure I'm going to die at this point. Continue speedwalking towards a women with a buddle buggy - could be an ally. Get to a corner and risk a look back. Someone's still coming up the street. Book it down the last street hoping to lose him in the fog. Get inside. Fucking full of adrenaline. Annd wasn't murdered. Today is a success.

:\ Yup.


That is such a shitty experience. :( What a horrible end to a good march. Are you feeling better now that time has passed?
Where there's smoke, there's fire. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. So just shut up, and bring some water.

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Re: Yuck Yuck Yuck - continued from "Ranting"

Postby lexiewalt » Mon Jan 23, 10:09 2017

Taurwen - yes mutual appreciation society! No wasn't accusing you of claiming my ideas as your own - fortunately they're not original anyway. Do wish SOMETHING was done to make our lives less problematic though - not sure what - which is I guess part of the whole problem!

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Re: Yuck Yuck Yuck - continued from "Ranting"

Postby Enigma » Mon Jan 23, 16:15 2017

Nech wrote:
Enigma wrote:Just had this happen to me coming back from the mother fucking women's march. I was back in my neighbourhood so no friends around. Dude got off at my stop loudly saying something about cigarettes he was selling. I ignored him and speed walked to catch a light to lose him. Dude yells STOP! really aggressively as I'm halfway across the street. So aggressively that I wonder if he's about to mug me or something. Follows me. Yells HEY!! incredibly aggressively (like if this was a movie he'd definitely have a gun on me at this point and it sounds like I murdered someone he loved or something). I continue to ignore him because engaging seems like a terrible idea at this point. There's hardly anyone around, fairly sure I'm going to die at this point. Continue speedwalking towards a women with a buddle buggy - could be an ally. Get to a corner and risk a look back. Someone's still coming up the street. Book it down the last street hoping to lose him in the fog. Get inside. Fucking full of adrenaline. Annd wasn't murdered. Today is a success.

:\ Yup.


That is such a shitty experience. :( What a horrible end to a good march. Are you feeling better now that time has passed?

Mostly I'm just feeling really mad at this asshole and frustrated about not feeling safe in my neighbourhood. But I am feeling a bit less sweary now lol.
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Re: Yuck Yuck Yuck - continued from "Ranting"

Postby Nech » Tue Jan 24, 7:16 2017

Enigma wrote:Mostly I'm just feeling really mad at this asshole and frustrated about not feeling safe in my neighbourhood. But I am feeling a bit less sweary now lol.


Aww :( I don't know if it helps you feel safe or not, but I can show you some self defense/escape stuff if you want next time we meet. That guy is such an asshole :|
Where there's smoke, there's fire. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. So just shut up, and bring some water.


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