A very long and complicated thought about God

[lizpoona]

I was recently reading Evilbible.com(thanks to Arcanthus), and I must say, there are alot of interesting points of veiw. I won't say facts, because I am doubtful. I can't say I've become agnostic, because I still do believe there is a God, I am still a Christian. Basically, I am just very confused. This is just after reading one or two pages of this very informative website.

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About the Bible. I could say that it is contradictory and hard to understand because of mis-translation, but the question "Why would God let that happen?" emerges. That leads to many, many other questions and such. Religion has caused pain, suffering, wars and most of the destruction on earth. And by religion, I don't just mean Christianity, but other faiths are involved. On the suffering and pain in this world: I could say that it is self-inflicted and caused by Satan, in a very complicated way that I will not go into. But again, Why would God let that happen? Why didn't God just destroy satan at the first sign of rebellion? How would an angel that God created to be a perfect worshipper do that?

Ofcourse, how can you explain all the tiny miracles that apparently happen in various parts of the world? How can you explain why some things just work out perfectly? How can you explain how some people's prayers are eventually answered? How can you explain that we, humans, with free-wills and emotions are just chemical reactions evolved from primordial soup? How did we get here? Why can't there be another theory besides the 'Big-Bang?'

Maybe we, the earth, and everything we know as reality are just toys for God, who created us for play. Maybe he created us with free-will so that we would become one big Soap-Opera for him to watch, purposely setting off chains of events so that the characters would have something to talk about at dinner. Maybe God is laughing at all the radical christians and anyone who is devoted to a religion. Or perhaps he likes it when his creation worships him, but still plays around with all the others just for fun. What if we're just one big, cataclysmic SIMs game to God?

Behold:

He who sits in the heavens shall laugh.
--Psalm 2:4

I will not renounce Jesus, nor will I become a raving, fanatical missionary bent on converting all 2 billion souls on earth. For all those who think Christianity is worse than the world being taken over Nazis possessed by evil aliens with anal-probing fetishes, I have this to say: When taken in the right way, and practiced in a reasonable, just way, being a christian is a good thing. Many charity organizations are christian-based, and a select few christians who have been taught right(like myself) are kind and really good friends, just like any other person on the planet.
I like it how one survivor of the Holocaust put it: "There are good jews, and bad jews. There are good christians, and there are bad christians. There are good athiests, and bad athiests. There are good Germans, and bad germans." Besides, You can't say that the Ten Commandments and the fruits of the spirit* are stupid and just religious rules. This applies to any religion.

Now, enough with the mini-rant. I have no idea how my initial confusion turned into this, but my point is: There might be a God, there might not be. Either way, we shouldn't bust our butts over it.
On the other hand, maybe God IS real. Then again, maybe UFOs are real. Will we ever know for sure? Probably not. When I die, I'll be sure to ask.

*But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
--Galatians 5:22-23

[angel]

smart ass....

[edit the sad parts]

There are way more "souls" on earth than 2 billion. Also, according to the Bible, if we don't "bust our butts about it" we're going to hell, aren't we?

I think there are many more good Christians than just a "select few"...however, my faith in any kind of organized religion is forever shattered. I don't need mythical crutches; especially Christian ones.

[skeptic320]

Ofcourse, how can you explain all the tiny miracles that apparently happen in various parts of the world? How can you explain why some things just work out perfectly? How can you explain how some people's prayers are eventually answered? How can you explain that we, humans, with free-wills and emotions are just chemical reactions evolved from primordial soup? How did we get here? Why can't there be another theory besides the 'Big-Bang?'

About this. Let's say you pray to find a parking space and - bingo! You find a parking space. It's a miracle! Yeah, no. The prayer has nothing to do with it. Sometimes things work out and sometimes they don't. If prayer really worked, it would work all the time. I'm suspicious of all reports of "miracles". People tend to see what they want to see, hear what they want to hear. If someone survives cancer, it's most likely because they received the right treatment and were lucky - not because someone prayed for them.

[Neko]

I'm suspicious of all reports of "miracles". People tend to see what they want to see, hear what they want to hear.

That suddenly brought to mind that one time in Florida when, after a storm, the window of some car dealership building suffered some discoloration. The discoloration supposedly formed Jesus' face. People came from all over just to look at the window.

That happens all the time. And yet, somehow, it's a freaking miracle.

[kiwi]

Ofcourse, how can you explain all the tiny miracles that apparently happen in various parts of the world? How can you explain why some things just work out perfectly? How can you explain how some people's prayers are eventually answered? How can you explain that we, humans, with free-wills and emotions are just chemical reactions evolved from primordial soup? How did we get here? Why can't there be another theory besides the 'Big-Bang?'

About this. Let's say you pray to find a parking space and - bingo! You find a parking space. It's a miracle! Yeah, no. The prayer has nothing to do with it. Sometimes things work out and sometimes they don't. If prayer really worked, it would work all the time. I'm suspicious of all reports of "miracles". People tend to see what they want to see, hear what they want to hear. If someone survives cancer, it's most likely because they received the right treatment and were lucky - not because someone prayed for them.

I agree with that....but i also don't.
I think that because people belive in praying SO MUCH, that their subconsciousness is convinced that the person they are praying for will heal, and our subconsciousness can do SO many things, including somehow transport that utter definite belief that so-and-so will be healed in somewhat of an energy that then influences the persons body that is sick to heal. This is only sometimes of course, but that could be an explanation. If you...ya know, believe in the whole our-brain-can-do-WAY-more-we-only-use-8%-of-it-thing.

And only sometimes of course, i'm not saying that we all somehow have a subconsious link over everything we do.

Geez, i really sound like a New Age-ish fanatic don't I? It makes sense if you think about it, not if it's explained to you in a freakish way like i just did.

[skeptic320]

I get what you're saying - but I think it can be more easily attributed to the placebo effect than the hand of God.

[Blackclaw]

smart ass....

?

[NUAndrew]

The human body is amazingly powerful, and amazingly resilient. Bruce Lee could control his heart rate, changing speed at will. There are Buddhist monks in tibet, that, when sitting outside in the buff, in the middle of the Himalayas, wrapped in wet towels, they were able to bring up their body temperature enough to not only survive for the next several hours, but to make the towels start steaming. It's all a matter of control. I don't have a source for the latter one, but I believe that it was included in a National Geographic special.

So I don't think that we have a subconscious link to everything we do. But I do believe that such a link can exist - it simply requires searching for it and cultivating it.

On the subject of prayer, though, it seems to me that it's really a lot of self-affirming predictions. If you pray for something, and it happens, then God did it. If it doesn't happen, then it's "Not part of God's plan."

To be quite frank, though, I'm very much an atheist/borderline deist. I guess the world makes more sense to me when there isn't a plan, and our lovely planet is just a random and terrible place where beautiful things happen.

[The Lion Rampant]

About the Bible. I could say that it is contradictory and hard to understand because of mis-translation, but the question "Why would God let that happen?" emerges. That leads to many, many other questions and such. Religion has caused pain, suffering, wars and most of the destruction on earth. And by religion, I don't just mean Christianity, but other faiths are involved. On the suffering and pain in this world: I could say that it is self-inflicted and caused by Satan, in a very complicated way that I will not go into. But again, Why would God let that happen? Why didn't God just destroy satan at the first sign of rebellion? How would an angel that God created to be a perfect worshipper do that?

Personally, I think that there is divine knowledge in works like the Bible, but it doesn't reach most people who read them--not necessarily because of mistranslation, but because of misinterpretation. People without the proper experiential "vocabulary" are not going to really know what Jesus, Moses, the Buddha, and others like them were talking about. I think that every so often, someone comes into contact with the answer to it all--life, the universe, and everything. They teach others how to find this knowledge, and somewhere along the line, it gets written down. Only, unless you've been given a framework for it, you're not really going to understand it when you read it.

Why would God "let" people remain "ignorant" of the truth? Maybe we've got a totally broken idea of what God is.

[MooseMama]

Maybe we've got a totally broken idea of what God is.

Indeed. And maybe if we could all put our different ideas together into one unified theory we'd be closer to the truth. I wish all people who profess to be Christians would actually read the book. It's fascinating, even for a non-Christian like myself.
I don't know what any of that had to do with news or Politics but it was an interesting read and reflects the confusion so many people have about life.
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[femiwhat?]

Have you ever taken a Philosophy of Religion class? If not, you might enjoy one. It's complete bullshit to argue back and forth about what God is and whether He exists, but it helps you articulate why it's complete bullshit.

Mostly, though, I think the more stuff you read, the more you can sort out what you think for yourself and why you think it. Being able to reject someone else's idea and say why is as important as forming your own and defending it.

[inept]

You're assuming of course that G-d is an omni benevolent being, of which you cannot assume. If G-d is all powerful and all reaching and hopefully, if G-d exists, a pinnacle of exquisite balance in this universe, then why would G-d be all benevolent in place of all wicked? If you believe G-d can reward you, don't you also believe it's G-d who punishes you? If you believe in Hell, isn't it still G-d who decides if you're damned, and not S---n? And even if G-d IS this wonderful manifestation of only the purest good, what good would it do us to have every prayer answered? Every death averted? Every hungry stomach fed? We can't survive as it is on this Earth. Why is it that everyone finds death such a sordid and repulsive act? If G-d exists, and his all merciful as you say, wouldn't death be a wonderful act in which the deserving, however you may define that, are taken up into G-d's kingdom of righteousness? Better that than suffering famine, or disease? Is it really the best thing for G-d's creation, if G-d itself isn't a part of and balanced with them?

To me, it's all about balance. An equilibrium between all things on Earth. "For better or for worse," even.

Aside from that.

No one will ever be sure of anything until that one moment where their form on Earth dies. At that one moment, we could all gain, or lose, everything there is. And even so, what if there is an afterlife? Is it wonderful, horrific, is it eternal or definite? Would it matter either way? 'Till death, you will never be so sure, and frankly, that would be too late.

"Eat, drink, and be merry, for tonight, we die."

[femiwhat?]

S---n?

Last time I checked, the reason for refusing to write God's name was so that no one could ever desecrate it. Are we honoring Satan in a similar way, now?

(As you can tell, I don't go for that. ^_^)

[inept]

S---n?

Last time I checked, the reason for refusing to write God's name was so that no one could ever desecrate it. Are we honoring Satan in a similar way, now?

(As you can tell, I don't go for that. ^_^)

I choose not to write the name of G-d on the principle that I'm Agnostic, and can't decide on the proper term by which to call G-d, if I should at all.

[The Lion Rampant]

I choose not to write the name of G-d on the principle that I'm Agnostic, and can't decide on the proper term by which to call G-d, if I should at all.

Refusing to name something for which we have no working metaphor is a safe practice. When we apply names to things that we do not experientially understand (or anything at all, for that matter), our minds become divorced from what that thing actually is. Everything in existence is changing constantly, and nothing is ever at rest. Further, you cannot point to anything in the universe and say, "This thing exists in and of itself," because everything is dependent on everything else. Separation is an illusion.

When you apply a static thought-moniker to anything at all, you lose touch with it. Your mind creates a denigrated copy of the thing you have labeled that does not even remotely approach the thing as it exists in reality. This is why God is not named.

It's odd that this thread is in Politics. Do we need a philosophy section?

[inept]

But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most?

And what say ye on this? Nice little conversation piece.

[Vanawathiel]

I think the belief there is that Satan isn't a sinner, Satan is pure evil. He's the one being that cannot change, the one enemy we should never love.

[edit the sad parts]

I think the belief there is that Satan isn't a sinner, Satan is pure evil. He's the one being that cannot change, the one enemy we should never love.

Isn't he just a fallen angel though? He was good at some point.

[Sporkster]

About the Bible. I could say that it is contradictory and hard to understand because of mis-translation, but the question "Why would God let that happen?" emerges. That leads to many, many other questions and such. Religion has caused pain, suffering, wars and most of the destruction on earth. And by religion, I don't just mean Christianity, but other faiths are involved. On the suffering and pain in this world: I could say that it is self-inflicted and caused by Satan, in a very complicated way that I will not go into. But again, Why would God let that happen? Why didn't God just destroy satan at the first sign of rebellion? How would an angel that God created to be a perfect worshipper do that?

Have you studied the Dark Ages of world history? Basically, the Dark Ages were "dark" because of the lack of the Bible. The Holy Roman Empire took away the Bible and told its people they would be excommunicated from the Church if they did not obey authority, which meant eternal damnation (the Catholics then believed that without church attendance, one would not be allowed into heaven). People had to buy penances to insure themselves of salvation. The Catholics screwed true, Biblical Christianity. They twisted the Bible so it could be used as their rule book. They added things to the Bible that shouldn't have been added.


Anyway, suffering and pain in this world is caused by sin. Something that no one has a lack of. We are all born with "original sin." Satan has been given authority by God to do as he wishes on this world because he pretty much owns the place. God only allows this to test us of our faith in Him. God has given everyone a free will. Even Satan, who was once an archangel, an angel of highest authority, was given the ability to choose which path he would take in life. He chose to separate from God, and God allowed him to do so. God created angels and humans, not robots; what would life be if God just controlled us and made us run courses that we didn't want to run? You can choose whatever you want to in life. God wants us to love and follow him on his own.

Ofcourse, how can you explain all the tiny miracles that apparently happen in various parts of the world? How can you explain why some things just work out perfectly? How can you explain how some people's prayers are eventually answered? How can you explain that we, humans, with free-wills and emotions are just chemical reactions evolved from primordial soup? How did we get here? Why can't there be another theory besides the 'Big-Bang?'

God has His hand in everything. He answers our prayers, and though it seems as if it's just a random probability of events, He answers every single one. The answer to your question about creation is simply: you can't. And to tell you the truth, the universe did start with a "Big Bang": "God spoke, and BANG!. It happened." The rest falls into place after that. Scientists can say whatever they want, but the Big Bang was caused by God.

Maybe we, the earth, and everything we know as reality are just toys for God, who created us for play. Maybe he created us with free-will so that we would become one big Soap-Opera for him to watch, purposely setting off chains of events so that the characters would have something to talk about at dinner. Maybe God is laughing at all the radical christians and anyone who is devoted to a religion. Or perhaps he likes it when his creation worships him, but still plays around with all the others just for fun. What if we're just one big, cataclysmic SIMs game to God?

Honestly, I dunno what to say about this one. May be true, but... I dunno. All I can say is try to read the Bible and find out from there.

You shouldn't "bust your butt" over anything, and I believe that radical Christians are into the whole "evangelism thing" for the show. I cannot stand watching evangelists on TV or Baptists. All of the Baptists I know believe that alcohol is of Satan (Jesus drank wine, not "grape juice." Shut up and get over it.) and that perfect church attendance is a must for heaven. I am a non-denominational Christian, meaning that I believe strictly in the Bible. I don't believe in religion, because most of the time, religion is someone's idea about what God wants us to do. The only thing someone should put their faith in is the Bible, and even that isn't completely accurate, thanks to the Catholics.

I hope some us this will help clear up any confusion that you have. You can talk to me any time if you have any more questions about God/the Bible/etc.

Edit Before any says I'm a "Catholic Basher":
I do not agree with Catholic teachings at all. The Catholic church of the Dark Ages was much different than the church of today, yes. But still, I believe that the Catholics put way too much emphasis on Mary, the disciples, saints, patron saints, popes, etc. and too little on Jesus Christ and God. I have nothing against Catholic people in general. I know many Catholics, most of them dear friends of mine, and I have no qualms about them at all. I just disagree with the religion, as it was used wrongly over history to control an empire that was far from holy.

[edit the sad parts]

^

Thanks, Sporkster. Everything is perfectly clear now. I have no more questions, since you are obviously right. I will now base my entire existence on a book that has been fucked with and edited numerous times.

[The Lion Rampant]

The only thing someone should put their faith in is the Bible, and even that isn't completely accurate, thanks to the Catholics.

Wait, are you sure you aren't a Protestant?

[skeptic320]

Have you studied the Dark Ages of world history? Basically, the Dark Ages were "dark" because of the lack of the Bible.

The Dark Ages were dark because people were ignorant and superstitious. The lack of adequate sanitation leading to the black plague didn't help either.

The Holy Roman Empire took away the Bible

If not for the Holy Roman Empire, Christianity would have been reduced to a fringe cult banished to the annals of history. The Romans spread it by means of conquest. You can't really say they "took away" the Bible when without them it wouldn't have left the Middle-East. Besides, most people couldn't read - a situation the Church didn't help.

and told its people they would be excommunicated from the Church if they did not obey authority, which meant eternal damnation (the Catholics then believed that without church attendance, one would not be allowed into heaven).

Isn't that the premise of Christianity? Obey God or go to Hell? In any case, the Catholic Church was not the only authority ever to issue such threats.

People had to buy penances to insure themselves of salvation.

Not quite. The word isn't penance, but indulgence; indulgences didn't ensure salvation, but reduced the time spent in Purgatory after death. You could buy indulgences. You didn't have to. Moreover, if you wanted to go to Heaven, you still had to be baptised, attend Mass, take communion, etc.

The Catholics screwed true, Biblical Christianity. They twisted the Bible so it could be used as their rule book. They added things to the Bible that shouldn't have been added.

No True Scotsman fallacy. http://atheism.about.com/od/logicalfall ... otsman.htm
Anyway, before the Catholics there was no Christianity. There was nothing for them to pervert.

Anyway, suffering and pain in this world is caused by sin. Something that no one has a lack of. We are all born with "original sin."

Lovely. So we deserve to suffer just for being born?

Satan has been given authority by God to do as he wishes on this world because he pretty much owns the place.

But God can do anything, right? So if Satan "owns" this plane of existence, it can only be because God wants him to, or at least doesn't object enough to do anything about it.

God only allows this to test us of our faith in Him.

That's kinda fucked up. What about infants and small children who are too young to have any kind of faith at all? Why does God allow them to live short, agonising lives only to die horribly? And what about followers of other faiths? The devout Hindu who believes Ganesh is testing his devotion suffers eternally for simply misplacing it?

God has given everyone a free will. Even Satan, who was once an archangel, an angel of highest authority, was given the ability to choose which path he would take in life. He chose to separate from God, and God allowed him to do so. God created angels and humans, not robots; what would life be if God just controlled us and made us run courses that we didn't want to run? You can choose whatever you want to in life. God wants us to love and follow him on his own.

But He'll send you to Hell if you don't choose what he wants. That's not free will at all. That's coercion. If I threatened you with torture and ordered you to do something - even if it's something good for you that will ultimately make you happy - no one would say you acted remotely freely.
And I won't even get into the contradictions between an omniscient god and free will.

He answers our prayers, and though it seems as if it's just a random probability of events, He answers every single one.

How convenient. The problem is, what's the difference between a prayer that hasn't been answered and a prayer that's been answered in such a way it seems not to have been?

The answer to your question about creation is simply: you can't. And to tell you the truth, the universe did start with a "Big Bang": "God spoke, and BANG!. It happened." The rest falls into place after that. Scientists can say whatever they want, but the Big Bang was caused by God.

More convenience. How do you feel about the fact that these words were typed by God? That's right, I'm God. I just go by the nick Skeptic for tax purposes. Incidentally, I, God, say the Bible is wholly inaccurate, and you should tithe all your income to Amnesty International and Oxfam.
Go ahead, prove me wrong.

All I can say is try to read the Bible and find out from there.

Do. But not if you treasure your faith. The contradictions, absurdities and atrocities have deconverted more than one Christian I know.

I don't believe in religion, because most of the time, religion is someone's idea about what God wants us to do.

So how are you any different? How do you know what God wants us to do, and why is your opinion any more accurate?

[Sporkster]

Don't really want to start a war on here...

Not quite. The word isn't penance, but indulgence; indulgences didn't ensure salvation, but reduced the time spent in Purgatory after death. You could buy indulgences. You didn't have to. Moreover, if you wanted to go to Heaven, you still had to be baptised, attend Mass, take communion, etc.

Thank you, I knew that penance wasn't the right word, but I wasn't quite sure what the right one was. Also, thank you for correcting me on that point. I've gotten quite a few things from world history mixed up... x( This is entirely true.

Anyway, before the Catholics there was no Christianity. There was nothing for them to pervert.

Uh...what? No, Catholicism came about with Roman emperor Constantine, way after the time of Christ and the early Church.

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Anyway, suffering and pain in this world is caused by sin. Something that no one has a lack of. We are all born with "original sin."

Lovely. So we deserve to suffer just for being born?

Well, thanks to Adam, Eve, and Satan, yes. But after this suffering comes, hopefully, eternal life. Then there will be no suffering.

Quote:
Satan has been given authority by God to do as he wishes on this world because he pretty much owns the place.

But God can do anything, right? So if Satan "owns" this plane of existence, it can only be because God wants him to, or at least doesn't object enough to do anything about it.

This goes back to the "free will" idea. God lets you do whatever you want to do. You can be with him, or against him. God will take care of Satan, and His divine intervention will save us from destroying ourselves entirely here on earth.

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God only allows this to test us of our faith in Him.

That's kinda fucked up. What about infants and small children who are too young to have any kind of faith at all? Why does God allow them to live short, agonising lives only to die horribly? And what about followers of other faiths? The devout Hindu who believes Ganesh is testing his devotion suffers eternally for simply misplacing it?

I have the same opinion of that. I'm not entirely sure why God does that, but who does?

Quote:
God has given everyone a free will. Even Satan, who was once an archangel, an angel of highest authority, was given the ability to choose which path he would take in life. He chose to separate from God, and God allowed him to do so. God created angels and humans, not robots; what would life be if God just controlled us and made us run courses that we didn't want to run? You can choose whatever you want to in life. God wants us to love and follow him on his own.

But He'll send you to Hell if you don't choose what he wants. That's not free will at all. That's coercion. If I threatened you with torture and ordered you to do something - even if it's something good for you that will ultimately make you happy - no one would say you acted remotely freely.
And I won't even get into the contradictions between an omniscient god and free will.

You have free will to either follow God or go against him. Baptists have this weird belief of predestination, which I think you're hitting on a bit, maybe? They believe that God knows who's going to hell and who's going the heaven, etc., and you have no way to change that. That is their religious believe, and it has nothing to do with anything in the Bible.

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He answers our prayers, and though it seems as if it's just a random probability of events, He answers every single one.

How convenient. The problem is, what's the difference between a prayer that hasn't been answered and a prayer that's been answered in such a way it seems not to have been?

You don't know. That's where your personal faith comes in.

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The answer to your question about creation is simply: you can't. And to tell you the truth, the universe did start with a "Big Bang": "God spoke, and BANG!. It happened." The rest falls into place after that. Scientists can say whatever they want, but the Big Bang was caused by God.

More convenience. How do you feel about the fact that these words were typed by God? That's right, I'm God. I just go by the nick Skeptic for tax purposes. Incidentally, I, God, say the Bible is wholly inaccurate, and you should tithe all your income to Amnesty International and Oxfam.
Go ahead, prove me wrong.

You could argue about creation vs. evolution forever and arrive back where you started. There's no way either side can prove anything in this case. You can only rely on faith.

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All I can say is try to read the Bible and find out from there.

Do. But not if you treasure your faith. The contradictions, absurdities and atrocities have deconverted more than one Christian I know.

Contradictions, yes. But only if you read the Old and New Testaments and compare them. The Old Testament is obsolete now, since Jesus Christ came to earth and died on the cross. The Old Testament was God's promise that a Messiah would come to save us from our sins. The New Testament is God's promise that the Messiah will come again to save our world from self-destruction. The New Testament is what I live by, because the Old Testament was strictly for Jews, not Gentiles like myself, and the promise of that book has already been followed through.

In order to understand why the Old Testament was strictly for the Jews and not Gentiles, you have to understand the story of Abraham and his sons. Isaac was his legitimate son who started the Hebrew nation, Ishmael was an illegitimate son who started the Arab nation. God promised Abraham's elderly wife, Sarai (Sarah) a son, but because of her age, he thought there was no possible way for her to become pregnant. Sarah gave him her handmaiden to have a son with. Sarah did have a son, as did the handmaiden. Because God had only promised the son of Sarah, Isaac was the only son blessed. Ishmael was cursed, and he and his mother were forced to live in the desert.

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I don't believe in religion, because most of the time, religion is someone's idea about what God wants us to do.

So how are you any different? How do you know what God wants us to do, and why is your opinion any more accurate?

By this, I meant that it's someone's personal belief that they try to say is THE way to follow the Bible. Like, the Catholics. They think they're right. The Baptists. They think they're the only good church. I strictly believe that the Bible is God's word and law, and I hold no other creed than the Bible. I read it, and whatever it says, I follow it. I don't really think my opinion could be/is any more accurate than any body else's. I don't entirely understand the Bible myself. I don't claim to, and I don't believe any one else does. I guess I won't ever know until I die, will I?

It just seems kind of hard to me, to see all the complexities of nature, all the beauty of the world, and the strange connection of a similar design in all things, and still not believe in some sort of Supreme Being. How can one say that nature just came about by accident? The simplest things are so wonderfully created. Math is used in everything. Pi is found in almost everything. All of creation is connected by a unique similar design, with mathematics interwoven into everything. How could all of that happened just by chance? Therefore, I believe in a Supreme Being. I don't know what more I can say.

[Sporkster]

I just took a look at evilbible.com, and I'd like to warn you that everything on that website is taken entirely out of context. Also, they take things from some book called "Wisdom" that's found in a Catholic version of the Bible. Just thought you might like me to point that out to you.