I am angry

[lillerina]

Walking home from college today, I was walking down the street to my house and a car beeped its horn at me. I ignored it and walked on. Less than a minute later, another car beeped its horn and someone hung out of the passenger window and shouted "Oooh lovely!"

Today I am wearing a plain white V-neck teeshirt, a black jacket, jeans and Doc Martens, and my hair is in plaits. The shirt isn't particularly revealing, and I know it isn't see through. The jeans are not particularly tight. I could have been dressed a little more modestly, but not much.

Their reactions to me made (and make) me feel objectified, embarrassed and degraded. Part of me thinks I should feel flattered for the attention, but most of me is disgusted with them and with myself for thinking that. Their attention was unwanted. It made me feel cheap, bad, slutty.

Why did that guy honk his horn? Why did that guy hang out of his window? Where did they get the nerve?

Who in society is sending out the message that it's okay to treat other people like lumps of meat? It's definitely not okay. And as I was walking into my house, feeling horrible, the only positivity I could hold onto was, this is why feminism has to continue. Intelligent, independent women should not have to feel like this.

And I'm angry. How dare they treat anyone like that? And how dare society make me feel that attention like that should flatter me, should validate me as a woman? I am more than my breasts.

[Dragonrider]

This is always interesting. I know many females who would react exactly the same way to the situation as you would. But I know very few males who would, if given the same situation with the sexes reversed (i.e. girls honking their horn at guys, hanging out of windows, etc). Many would be flattered, actually.

So what's the difference? Is a guy treated less like meat when it happens? Is there an underlying current of fear that only goes one way? Is it just a matter of numbers, i.e. guys get hit on in such a manner so infrequently that when it does happen, it's refreshing/novel? Is it a way that girls are brought up versus how boys are brought up that makes the difference?

And if we're talking equality here, then what kind of equality are we talking about?
1) When it happens to girls, girls feel the same way guys do now?
2) When it happens to guys, guys feel the same way girls do now?
3) It doesn't happen to either sex?
4) It happens to both sexes in equal proportions and each individual gets to choose which way they feel, which will probably be about the same as it is now?

Personally, I've been um, accosted, in such a manner before, by both males and females. I can't say I minded it too terribly much, and some attempts were actually downright hilarious. Do I not care if someone considers me a piece of meat? Well, not really. I'm confident enough in my personality that I know that people will, given the time to get to know me, be able to see past whatever meatlike characteristics I have. I can't say that I'm even subconsciously afraid when it happens. But I can't rule out the possibility that if it happened every day, it'd get old... or that I was brought up differently than a girl was.

[thechocolatebanana]

Yeah, I know how you feel lill...I mean, in a way it's flattering because it's like "dang! i can walk out looking like crap and still get honked at?!" but in another way it's scary... because you think, what kind of guys are those that they would pay so much attention to me? I don't know about you, but it makes me a little scared about what kind of people they are, and a little scared to walk out alone.

And Dragonrider, I can definitely see your point...as far as the humiliation thing goes, I agree that we need to be confident enough to laugh it off. However, the fear factor, as you mentioned, is different for girls. It's much more common for a girl (even dressed plainly) to be taken advantage of/stalked/mugged by a strange guy who happens to take a bit of interest, especially if she's out by herself, than it is for a guy.

[monk]

I'm confident enough in my personality that I know that people will, given the time to get to know me, be able to see past whatever meatlike characteristics I have.

You will always have meatlike characteristics in my eye DR.

As for the making noises. My theory is that some people are just rude. Sure I enjoy the scenery of the girls walking by but I have never said or shouted at one. My thought is what's the point? Unless you're going to stop and try to pick up on the girl your attentions even if welcomed aren't going to lead to anything.

As for being offended by such attention, I am now apologizing to you Lill for the pig like actions of my gender. Though I have been known to be pig like myself I generally try to keep it in areas where at least it's amusing and harmless. One thing I would try to keep in mind is that very likely these were young men who do most of their thinking with their penises and will likely grow out of such behavior eventually especially after being trained on how to behave by a woman somewhere along the line. That's what happened to me at any rate.

[Le_Pingouin]

Are you so insecure that you can't handle being objectified? Is your identity that frail?

*shrugs*

If people actually are more than lumps of meat, then we shouldn't be so afraid when they're treated as such- we do exist on that level, even though there is more to us (well, most of us, not all [I say that totally seriously]); why do we get so scared when the "more to us" part is ignored? Will it disappear if it isn't constantly reaffirmed?

[skeptic320]

Well, Le_P, call me crazy but given that women have been treated as nothing more than pieces of meat for most of recorded history and still are in many places, it doesn't strike me as that unreasonable to be annoyed at people who still think that way.

[lillerina]

Are you so insecure that you can't handle being objectified? Is your identity that frail?

Why should I have to handle being objectified? I am a person, not a fire hydrant - they are objects. I don't like being whistled at - you whistle at dogs. Not people, thanks.

And I didn't feel threatened, more angry. I don't think that hating stuff like this makes me insecure, I just want to be respected by people as a human being. I don't think that's a lot to ask.

Monk - I hold out hope for pigs such as these. Your tale inspires me and fills me with faith.

[michan]

hmm.. this reminds me of a similar situation I was in yesterday.

I was walking up the hill to go home, and an old Mexican dude literally trailed me in his car ALL THE WAY up the hill, honking his horn and whistling. I was wearing baggy jeans, sneakers, a hoody, and a leather jacket. (not exactly "sexy.") It was so creepy, because he literally crawled along right next to me the entire way. I ignored him, but once I reached the top of the hill, I was so pissed that I flipped him off. I think this gesture just added to his excitement, but at least it made me feel a little better, like I was defending myself.

I totally agree that it sucks to be objectified and approached in this manner. I'm ok with a whistle or two when walking down the street, it makes me feel a little bit flattered, but shit like that is too much. I think the best thing a woman can do in that kind of situation is maintain her dignity and cool. It will just make the guy look like a silly buffoon.

[FernGully]

I don't have much that is useful to contribute, but I find being honked or yelled at from a vehicle really unsettling. It's unnerving. I feel vulnerable. I don't feel flattered because that person yelling doesn't know anything about me and probably can't see any defining features about me either. It's weird. I feel like they would honk or yell at anything with longish hair or a "typically" girlish figure. But what I don't understand is why they do this at all? It's obviously not to get a date, does it feel good?

Also, when you're walking quietly it's startling as all hell.

[Aum]

I've been cat called from cars by girls AND guys before. It kind of made me smile

It's all about your perspective... you can take it badly or take it well. I find that the attitude is generally based on one's own self-confidence. If you let it get to you in a bad way instead of just shrugging it off, then every little thing like that which happens to you is going to always bring you down.

Frankly, I don't know why this is in feminism. People get cat called all the time. It's not a women's rights issue, it's just people in cars being stupid/silly to people who aren't in cars. At least they didn't throw lit cigarettes at you or something... I've had THAT happen before too!

[cwbyrvr]

Plus, how do you react to that?

A quick flip of a finger would do nicely I think but I never have the courage to do that. I also tend to think I'm being made fun of when that happens.

[Ssshadow]

I played tennis in high school- in the standard tennis skirts and tanktops- and one of the local courts we played at a few times was right down the hill from a busy highway. Needless to say, that sort of thing was happening to us really often.

That said, maybe this means I'd make a bad feminist, but I really didnt mind at all. Whenever it happened, the other girls and I would always have a good laugh, and I honestly find it more flattering than anything else. But maybe thats just because that sort of thing has never really happened to me personally.

Anyway, if I were you, I wouldnt worry about it. I'm sure it wasnt brought about by what you were wearing. The way I see it, honking at a random girl on the side of the road as you speed by, never to see her again is a whole lot easier than actually giving a sincere complement to someone, face to face. And since both are generally seen as acceptable (maybe not desirable...) then I guess if I were a guy who wanted to point out a pretty girl, I'd rather do it the former way too.

[imogene the fish]

That said, maybe this means I'd make a bad feminist, but I really didnt mind at all. Whenever it happened, the other girls and I would always have a good laugh, and I honestly find it more flattering than anything else. But maybe thats just because that sort of thing has never really happened to me personally.

It's different when there's a group of you, IMHO. I'm not bothered if it happens when there are a few of us, but when I'm alone, it's worse because I have no one to laugh with. I can't turn to someone and say "what a jerk". I can still think it, but it's nice to have someone else, there.

I'm usually honked at, hit on and catcalled more when I'm wearing unflattering clothes (definitely not revealing stuff) and often when I'm sending off all the "bitch" signals. All those things happened to me more the month after my sister died than ever before (and it wasn't that rare before). Even in just people walking around who could see me glaring at them. I don't know the significance of that, just an observation. But really what you're wearing doesn't have much to do with it.

It depends on my mood beforehand. Sometimes it doesn't bother me, usually, though, it really pisses me off. Generally, I don't like being treated like a piece of meat. I'm not a piece of meat. Nor were my female ancestors, yet men got away with treating them like that. I don't want that to happen again. I don't think that's unreasonable.

[lillerina]

It's all about your perspective... you can take it badly or take it well. I find that the attitude is generally based on one's own self-confidence. If you let it get to you in a bad way instead of just shrugging it off, then every little thing like that which happens to you is going to always bring you down.

Can I make the point again that this is not me being insecure? This is me saying, I should not have to put up with this. The objectification of humans is not an acceptable act. As has been said many times, I'm not a piece of meat and don't appreciate being treated like one.

Frankly, I don't know why this is in feminism. People get cat called all the time. It's not a women's rights issue, it's just people in cars being stupid/silly to people who aren't in cars. At least they didn't throw lit cigarettes at you or something... I've had THAT happen before too!

"It happens to men, too" and "It could be worse" are not valid arguments for why something is not a feminist issue. This is a feminist issue because it's about objectification of women - an attitude in society which leads to more violence towards women, an issue that certainly is to do with feminism.

That said, maybe this means I'd make a bad feminist, but I really didnt mind at all.

I don't think it's about being a good or bad feminist, but it's an issue that I think should be addressed.

...honking at a random girl on the side of the road as you speed by, never to see her again is a whole lot easier than actually giving a sincere complement to someone, face to face. And since both are generally seen as acceptable (maybe not desirable...) then I guess if I were a guy who wanted to point out a pretty girl, I'd rather do it the former way too.

But why are both acceptable? And is it right that honking at a girl, shouting at her as you drive past should be equally acceptable as a genuine, from the heart, compliment? IMHO a compliment is very different from a random drive by honk. A compliment is a considered, personal comment. A drive by honk is the modern equivalent of a caveman throwing a rock at an attractive cavewoman.

Generally, I don't like being treated like a piece of meat. I'm not a piece of meat. Nor were my female ancestors, yet men got away with treating them like that. I don't want that to happen again. I don't think that's unreasonable.

This is exactly my point. Thank you

[Dragonrider]

Frankly, I don't know why this is in feminism. People get cat called all the time. It's not a women's rights issue, it's just people in cars being stupid/silly to people who aren't in cars. At least they didn't throw lit cigarettes at you or something... I've had THAT happen before too!

"It happens to men, too" and "It could be worse" are not valid arguments for why something is not a feminist issue. This is a feminist issue because it's about objectification of women - an attitude in society which leads to more violence towards women, an issue that certainly is to do with feminism.

It is definitely an objectification of women. And I can definitely see why that can be upsetting.

I guess I should restate my question from before. Why don't men mind being objectified as much as women mind being objectified? How can we make this more equal, and in what way?

[imogene the fish]

Frankly, I don't know why this is in feminism. People get cat called all the time. It's not a women's rights issue, it's just people in cars being stupid/silly to people who aren't in cars. At least they didn't throw lit cigarettes at you or something... I've had THAT happen before too!

"It happens to men, too" and "It could be worse" are not valid arguments for why something is not a feminist issue. This is a feminist issue because it's about objectification of women - an attitude in society which leads to more violence towards women, an issue that certainly is to do with feminism.

It is definitely an objectification of women. And I can definitely see why that can be upsetting.

I guess I should restate my question from before. Why don't men mind being objectified as much as women mind being objectified? How can we make this more equal, and in what way?

Because men weren't treated as objects for centuries. Also, as far as I can tell, this happens to women more than it happens to men. I don't know how we make it more equal other than calling men (and women) out when it happens, if you know them.

[Storage and Disposal]

Because men weren't treated as objects for centuries.

They kind of were.

[Aum]

Can I make the point again that this is not me being insecure? This is me saying, I should not have to put up with this. The objectification of humans is not an acceptable act. As has been said many times, I'm not a piece of meat and don't appreciate being treated like one.

Yes, you shouldn't have to if you don't want to, so what do you propose to do about it? People have been cat calling each other since the beginning of time. Now they do it from cars. It's humans doing the same fuckery they've always done. When people are having fun and get excited, they can sometimes do silly things. Add a car to the mix, and they can drive around and spread their silliness everywhere.

"It happens to men, too" and "It could be worse" are not valid arguments for why something is not a feminist issue. This is a feminist issue because it's about objectification of women - an attitude in society which leads to more violence towards women, an issue that certainly is to do with feminism.

Yeah but it happens to men too, so the objectification is not confined to women. I don't think that cat calling from a car leads to violence towards women. Like I said, I've been cat called before too and I'm a man, and I didn't like it either. Does that mean I'm not allowed to talk about it in this thread, because I'm not a woman who's crying about it? Sorry, but I disagree with you. For every magazine that shows a woman in a bakini, there is another one that shows a muscleman with his shirt off. The objectification goes both ways, thanks! Too bad there is no male equivalent of feminism to take up this battle with.

But why are both acceptable? And is it right that honking at a girl, shouting at her as you drive past should be equally acceptable as a genuine, from the heart, compliment? IMHO a compliment is very different from a random drive by honk. A compliment is a considered, personal comment. A drive by honk is the modern equivalent of a caveman throwing a rock at an attractive cavewoman.

Because it's easy, and you can remain anonymous. Honking at you was just something to do to pass the time, and it was silly of them. People yell all sorts of things from cars as they drive by... it's safe for them to do. Then they don't have to deal with your reaction since you're already biting their dust.

I guess I should restate my question from before. Why don't men mind being objectified as much as women mind being objectified? How can we make this more equal, and in what way?

Men DON'T like being objectified. What you just said is the opposite stereotype. Men have emotions and reactions to these kinds of things too. It's just like saying guys don't mind being hit as much because they are tougher. I don't like being hit, even playfully, and I will hit you back if you do it, regardless of your gender! Men are self-conscious about their bodies too, and their looks. The stereotype is that men SHOULDN'T mind being objectified because it puts them in a position of power since they are being admired. That puts the reverse pressure on us to take all sorts of crap from people, and then not have the right to complain about it. Whereas women are the opposite, and they are allowed to cry foul whenever the littlest things happen to them. It's all about feminism if you're a woman and you complain, and it's all about being a wimp if you complain and you're a guy. Men are objectified all the time and they aren't allowed to say boo about it.

Nice double standard!

[rowan]

Men DON'T like being objectified. What you just said is the opposite stereotype. Men have emotions and reactions to these kinds of things too. It's just like saying guys don't mind being hit as much because they are tougher. I don't like being hit, even playfully, and I will hit you back if you do it, regardless of your gender! Men are self-conscious about their bodies too, and their looks. The stereotype is that men SHOULDN'T mind being objectified because it puts them in a position of power since they are being admired. That puts the reverse pressure on us to take all sorts of crap from people, and then not have the right to complain about it. Whereas women are the opposite, and they are allowed to cry foul whenever the littlest things happen to them. It's all about feminism if you're a woman and you complain, and it's all about being a wimp if you complain and you're a guy. Men are objectified all the time and they aren't allowed to say boo about it.

Nice double standard!

This is the exact kind of thing that feminism ought to be fighting AS WELL. Men have all these pressures on them that are also not healthy, and affect men and women because of them. We need to fight all of these things. People shouldn't be made uncomfortable in the first place, there ought to be respect, AND men ought to be allowed to be uncomfortable about it and speak their minds just as much as we can.

So if you're a guy, and you get cat-called, and it makes you uncomfortable, flip 'em off!

[Ssshadow]

...honking at a random girl on the side of the road as you speed by, never to see her again is a whole lot easier than actually giving a sincere complement to someone, face to face. And since both are generally seen as acceptable (maybe not desirable...) then I guess if I were a guy who wanted to point out a pretty girl, I'd rather do it the former way too.

But why are both acceptable? And is it right that honking at a girl, shouting at her as you drive past should be equally acceptable as a genuine, from the heart, compliment? IMHO a compliment is very different from a random drive by honk. A compliment is a considered, personal comment. A drive by honk is the modern equivalent of a caveman throwing a rock at an attractive cavewoman.

I meant "acceptable" as in most people are okay enough with it to not bother taking an active stance against it. Most people wouldnt not be driven to brutally scorn or shun a guy who catcalled at girls out of his window. I dont know anyone who would even bother calmly confronting anyone about it. So, to me, that is essentially acceptable.
And no I dont think thats as good as a compliment, but like I said its much easier than saying anything thats really from the heart, and as long as no one makes a big deal about it either way, why bother getting all sentimental? Girls dont like softies, anyway, or so I've been told.

And what does "IMHO" mean?

[cwbyrvr]

Because men weren't treated as objects for centuries.

They kind of were.

Elaborate? I'm serious here, I wanna know what part of history I'm failing to bring to mind. I don't question that it's true I just want to know what you have mind.

[Storage and Disposal]

I was referencing the tendencies of wealthier men and artists dating back to the Renaissance. They all weren't by definition gay, it was just a more sexually open culture. Young men were often objectified.

[edit] I suppose she may have meant that they haven't been objectified lately when she said for centuries. I'm not sure if she's implying that women have been objectified for centuries or that men haven't been objectified for centuries. I think they still are. I've been objectified a few times in the past.

[Dragonrider]

A lot of good points on the objectification of men. With them in mind, I want to get back to how what an ideal solution would be.

Let's put it this way. Lills, let's say you have the power to change reality. With your MIND. After immediately changing reality to give Meppi the same power (she is, after all, in charge of mind prawn), what would you do to change these interactions to make them more equal? I.e. what would you have happen more often, less often, prevent from happening, have stuff happen in a different context, etc?

And what does "IMHO" mean?

IMHO stands for 'In my humble opinion.' Sometimes it's used ironically, although I don't think it was here.

[Dragonrider]

Psst, Lills! I'm genuinely wondering, I hope you didn't lose interest!

[lillerina]

Sorry, yeah, not lost interest, just been thinking a lot about it.

For me, an ideal world would involve respect for one another. So, nobody would treat each other like objects aside from in situations where it has already been established that this is acceptable (eg in some relationships).