Which of the following is racist or sexist?

[BeautifulFlower85]

Select from the list what you find sexist or racist. Thank you.

[helium]

YOU select from the list what you find racist or sexist!

[letyourlifesing]

Depends on context, ie whether or not a group is marginalised and has need of a group to champion its rights.

[lizpoona]

I prefer championing human rights, with emphasis on various subgroups when appropriate.

[BeautifulFlower85]

I prefer championing human rights, with emphasis on various subgroups when appropriate.

I agree.

[spacefem]

I don't know if I'd call it "racist" or "sexist" to champion the rights of men or white people, but it kinda makes you an asshole. These are privileged classes. You will not make humanity better by "fighting" for white people, because they're already in power.

Let's review... it goes:
Power + Privilege = Oppression

[BeautifulFlower85]

I don't know if I'd call it "racist" or "sexist" to champion the rights of men or white people, but it kinda makes you an asshole. These are privileged classes.

Tell that to the homeless white guy I saw the other day with half of one of his cheeks missing due to infection or frostbite.

Stop confusing top earners--many of whom happen to be white and male--with the majority of white men.

Did you know that there are more homeless men than women in the US? Oh, and nobody gives a crap. Case in point: you. You either didn't know that, don't believe it, or don't give a crap.

[Meperidine]

^ More single men are homeless than single women. Women fleeing domestic abuse with their children? Check your stats again. Families account for more than half of the newly homeless each year.

[BeautifulFlower85]

^ More single men are homeless than single women. Women fleeing domestic abuse with their children? Check your stats again. Families account for more than half of the newly homeless each year.

I never used the word single, so you're putting words in my mouth. I claimed that there are more homeless men than women in the US, period. It doesn't matter if it's a father with his family or a single man. This is a fact many people like to ignore or bullshit on. Finally, families does not necessarily translate to women, rofl.

"According to a December, 2000 report of the US Conference of Mayors:

single men comprise 44 percent of the homeless, single women 13 percent, families with children 36 percent [and this does not necessarily equate to women], and unaccompanied minors seven percent."

So where are you getting your information from?

Also, since men aren't a protected class like women are, nobody gives a crap that most homeless are single men (many don't even know it).

So, where are your stats? Are you seriously trying to tell me that there are more homeless women in the US than homeless men?

[Sonic#]

How are men a less protected class than women?

[BeautifulFlower85]

How are men a less protected class than women?

To give one example, I don't see any prominent and powerful movement or group fighting for men, despite the fact that most of the homeless in the US are men. Isn't that strange? Or what about the number of men compared to women who graduate from high school and college. More women graduate from high school and college, and yet, nobody is wondering why or cares (nobody powerful, anyway). And then there is the judicial system handing out on average lighter sentences to women than men for the same crimes. The list goes on and on...

But people have been brainwashed into thinking that being a man (worse still, a white man! *gasp*) means you're given free money, back rubs, education, food, etc. Hey: I'm a white dude. Where is my free money, back rubs, education, and food? Obviously, I'm using hyperbole here, but my main point still stands. When people are brainwashed into thinking The Game is rigged in your favor, then they will try to balance things out. But what if there was no imbalance in the first place? Or not as much as originally thought to be?

If here in the US men were truly a protected class, then men wouldn't be putting up with so much injustice.

[lizpoona]

Wow. I don't even know where to start with that.

[monk]

Start with there is a difference between class and race and there is a difference between class and gender.

Are there more "men" homeless than women? Yes, but of the homeless men, which are more likely to recieve help should they seek it, a white man or a black man? The white man will more likely get more attention if he seeks help, therefore he has privilege. Who is more likely to get hassled by the police for being transient, a black man or a white man? again the answer is the black man, therefore he has less privilege. Why are there fewer single women on the streets homeless? One of the answers is that women who find themselves on the street without resources either become the property of predatory males or get killed for resisting those same males or they motivate themselves to take full advantage of the programs and services offered to all and don't jeopardize those services by abusing them and ending up back on the street. There are programs for all homeless in every major metropolitan area in the US that anyone can get on the list for and can eventually (if the rules are followed) work their way out of being homeless. There are higher instances of mental instability in men that prevent them from working progams and that is another reason for higher homelessness in men. and I could go on and on and on.

it's mostly about class when talking about the poor, and class knows no color, but once money enters the picture unless the amount is overwhelming (rich being an equalizer of sorts) then you will notice the power structure favors white males. How do you notice? by looking.

[BeautifulFlower85]

Are there more "men" homeless than women? Yes, but of the homeless men, which are more likely to recieve help should they seek it, a white man or a black man?

I don't know. I'm presuming that under your world view you would say the white man has magical powers that allow him to persuade people to help him? What would happen if a homeless white man sought help from somebody like you? You'd probably light him on fire; after all, the homeless white man is probably a former stock broker or something who had stolen money from millions and millions of angelic women and black men.

This is also a bit of a red herring. You concede to the point that there are more homeless men than women, but still hold to the idea that men are privileged? Don't you find that strange?

How about this: who is more likely to receive help: a homeless woman or a homeless man? I'd say woman...

But this is all conjecture...

The white man will more likely get more attention if he seeks help, therefore he has privilege.

Your argument is circular. White men are privileged; therefore, white men are privileged.

But I've given you actual evidence (more homeless people are men) that points to the contrary.

Who is more likely to get hassled by the police for being transient, a black man or a white man?

According to statistics, who is more likely to commit a crime: a black man or a white man?

Or are you only fond of using statistics dealing with rape and violence against women?

Why are there fewer single women on the streets homeless? One of the answers is that women who find themselves on the street without resources either become the property of predatory males or get killed for resisting those same males or they motivate themselves to take full advantage of the programs and services offered to all and don't jeopardize those services by abusing them and ending up back on the street.

Is this your personal hypothesis?

My hypothesis is that women don't have it as bad as you think they do (case in point more homeless are men) and that people couldn't care less about men (not much media coverage, people making excuses--and if it is covered, they talk about homeless women, even though there are much more homeless men! lmao). People hate seeing women suffering (especially men). Men? Not so much, unless you're handsome or something.

There are programs for all homeless in every major metropolitan area in the US that anyone can get on the list for and can eventually (if the rules are followed) work their way out of being homeless.

Oh, so now you're saying that it's the fault of men that they're homeless and that they can stop being homeless anytime they want. They should pull themselves up by the bootstraps, in other words.

But let me guess... if the majority of homeless were women, then you wouldn't be saying it's their fault. You'd be saying it is because of sexism. Right? Uh huh. And that they need all the help in the world?

There are higher instances of mental instability in men that prevent them from working progams and that is another reason for higher homelessness in men.

Homeless people are on average more mentally unstable because they have to deal with a lot of crap. In fact, in many cases, they're homeless because they're mentally unstable.

More reason to help them though...

it's mostly about class when talking about the poor, and class knows no color

But I thought all white guys were rich and powerful? That all blacks are poor and oppressed? That all women are poor and oppressed?



Do you not realize how irrational some of you are being? You say white men are privileged... Why? Well, you didn't really give me any evidence, but I presume that you're talking about how the top earners in the US are white men. Actually, the top earners are mostly white AND asian men (I guess asian men are privileged too). Anyway, you don't see the illogic in generalizing all white men based on the richest in the country? Shouldn't you be, I don't know, looking at all white men? Lower-class, middle-class, upper-class, etc.? That's one reason I brought up homeless people. Yes, the top earners are men... but most of the homeless are men. But your conclusion is men are privileged? What!? Finally, it doesn't follow that since men are the top earners that women are being shafted. It just might be because men work harder than women (in fact many studies show that men on average do indeed work more hours than women) or that men pursue higher earning jobs. I know there are more men pursuing degrees in the hard sciences (which leads to high paying jobs) than women. Could that be a reason? The reason doesn't have to be sexism.

[Pieass]

If your claiming that evidence should be shown, back up your own statements.

[Enigma]

I'd say the legitimacy of a group has a lot to do with the level of assholery involved. Yeah sure there can be a group promoting white people but the likelihood of that group actually being an assholery promoting group is higher as generally white people as a group are doing just fine. Now if there was a specific homeless guy on the street who happened to be white hopefully the group helping him out isn't going to bypass the black homeless guy next to him.

What you aren't distinguishing between is the difference between individuals not doing well and large groups on average not doing well. When groups as a whole are disadvantaged they get groups to figure out why and fix it. Being a man or being white are not the reasons you are having problems in your life so you don't get a race or gender specific advocacy group. The groups that can help you out hopefully will be specific to whatever injustices actually have disadvantaged you (low income, mental illness, alcohol/drug dependence, etc.) There is no reason to be race specific when your race is already on top.

[Sonic#]

Read some prominent feminists and you'll see where we're coming from. But if you're not going to read Simone de Beauvoir or the like, let's see.

First, provide evidence for your own claims.

Second, no one argues that middle-class and above white men don't have problems. But their problems generally aren't associative with their whiteness or their masculinity or their wealth. The exception is when they act insufficiently masculine or insufficiently white, or as you've mentioned, when they are insufficiently wealthy. Generally, though, our culture values wealth, whiteness, and masculinity. They are assumed to share the qualities needed for succeeding at business - aggression, assertion, logic, strength, potency, self-control, and the like. All other things being equal, a black man, a white woman, or a black woman is assumed to not have these qualities, and out of these examples, the black woman is assumed to have the least. If we add the contrast, then we end up with another set of ranks, with the poor black woman again at the bottom.

Some of your comments imply that one cannot differentiate between the middle-class and up white woman and the poor white man. Both have problems. These aren't the same problems. Attention to one group need not imply lack of attention to another. You point out that there are less homeless women. But there are still a lot of both, and pointing out the slight skew of sexism against the poor white man, if we were to take it seriously, still lacks a source. I would say, as I have claimed in every other thread, that there are several forms of sexism working in these cases that work against men and women. For example, if you were to query the typical cause for sexism for men and women, the sorts of sexism that you are downplaying would become apparent.

[BeautifulFlower85]

First, provide evidence for your own claims.

That's not how it works. The burden of proof rests on your shoulders when you make claims like white men are a privileged class, or women are being oppressed. so far, I haven't seen any solid evidence to back up these kinds of claims; and since there's no good reason to believe your claims are true, then why would any fair-minded person believe they're true? All I've seen so far from the feminists on this forum is conjecture and circular arguments. Furthermore, I've provided a counter example of how--at the very least--men are not priviledged for simply being men. The example being that most homeless in the US are men by a pretty large margin. Finally, forgive me for saying so, but I think this whole idea of women sitting behind computers (invented by a man, and your particular computer most likely built by a man) burning time using hate sites on the Internet (invented by a team of men) to propagate the baseless idea that men or white men are living the life of luxury or are privileged simply for being white or male is ridiculous.

[Sonic#]

That's not how it works.

I lol'd.

Note: disputing the terms of an argument does not make your point right. Your refusal to contradict my logic further weakens your diversion away from the fact that you have no grounds for contention. Besides, you ignore your context. If you want to successfully hold an antifeminist stance on a feminist forum, the burden of proof is on you.

[BeautifulFlower85]

I lol'd.

I lol'd.

Evidently, you don't know how logic works.

You can't claim something is true, presume it to be true, and then expect me to falsify it. After all, you're the one who made the claim. So, where is your evidence?

If you want to successfully hold an antifeminist stance on a feminist forum, the burden of proof is on you.

Again, that's not how it works. I hold an "antifeminist" stance because there is no reason to believe your claims are true, since there is no evidence supporting them.

Read some prominent feminists and you'll see where we're coming from.

Translation: read our propaganda until your brain melts.

[Sonic#]

Evidently, you don't know how logic works.

Evidently, you don't know how logic works.

You can't claim something is false, presume it to be false, and then expect it to be untrue because I have not proved it. After all, you're the only one who disagrees with the claim. So, where is your evidence to the contrary?

I hold an "antifeminist" stance because there is no reason to believe your claims are true, since there is no evidence supporting them.

Again, that's not how it works. You cannot hold a stance contrary to the ethos of a particular forum unless you are able to rigorously defend your side. I gave you logic. You still haven't refuted it.

Translation: read our propaganda until your brain melts.

Translation of the translation: I fear you cannot distinguish between fact and opinion in writing. I know I cannot, which is why I make the claim that feminist writing is propaganda, without having read or thought about it.

[BeautifulFlower85]

Sonic,

I don't think you understand what the burden of proof is, so you might want to read this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophi ... n_of_proof

Now, you've made the claim that white men are a privileged class. Where is the evidence that backs up this claim? If you don't have any, then just say so. And if you don't have any, then there is no reason to believe white men are a privileged class.

[monk]

Are there more "men" homeless than women? Yes, but of the homeless men, which are more likely to recieve help should they seek it, a white man or a black man?

I don't know. I'm presuming that under your world view you would say the white man has magical powers that allow him to persuade people to help him? What would happen if a homeless white man sought help from somebody like you? You'd probably light him on fire; after all, the homeless white man is probably a former stock broker or something who had stolen money from millions and millions of angelic women and black men.

This is also a bit of a red herring. You concede to the point that there are more homeless men than women, but still hold to the idea that men are privileged? Don't you find that strange?

How about this: who is more likely to receive help: a homeless woman or a homeless man? I'd say woman...

But this is all conjecture...

So your point is that because on the very bottom of society the men outnumber women they are more privileged than men? So the side who has the bigger number wins. You've state current college graduates and homelessness where women are in the lead. Let's try some others related to welfare and wealth.
Who beats on who more?
Who kills who more?
Who rapes who more?
Who makes up the mass majority of those in power in politics?
in sports?
in religion?
in fashion? Yes, men make more money off of fashion than women do because like all major areas of business men run and own most of the corporations. You would think that this wouldn't be the case in womens fashion but it's true.

Who is more likely to get hassled by the police for being transient, a black man or a white man?

According to statistics, who is more likely to commit a crime: a black man or a white man?

Or are you only fond of using statistics dealing with rape and violence against women?

Of transient people likely to commit crimes, the statistics show it's about equally likely they will be criminals with records. When you talk about statistics about who is more likely to commit crimes as a whole population, black men or white men the answer is black men, why? because more of them are poor and homeless.

Take a look at your statistical source and it will relate crime to poverty in every scenario. As soon as an area becomes affluent of any racial mix the crime drops dramatically and evenly no matter what that mix is be it Black, Latino, white, Asian, or mixed in any combination. But because there is a privilege status attributed to the white men over the black men they are more likely to garner police attention and therefore more likely to get caught doing something. Have you not read or heard about how the police are trying very hard not to profile people? Why do they need to do this? because the profiling just makes the problem worse as it has done for many generations now.

Why are there fewer single women on the streets homeless? ... ending up back on the street.

Is this your personal hypothesis?

My hypothesis is that women don't have it as bad as you think they do (case in point more homeless are men)

How about giving us another case in point? I gave you a big list at the beginning of this post. Skip the college one unless you have some proof that the diploma gave them an advantage somewhere.

There are programs for all homeless in every major metropolitan area in the US that anyone can get on the list for and can eventually (if the rules are followed) work their way out of being homeless.

Oh, so now you're saying that it's the fault of men that they're homeless and that they can stop being homeless anytime they want. They should pull themselves up by the bootstraps, in other words.

For someone who has been homeless and worked with the homeless myself, I know it's very hard to fix on your own, thus the programs. But the programs are overcrowded thus they enforce their rules and guidelines very seriously. Who is more likely to Abuse someone with foul language or outright violonce when they're upset thus getting kicked out of the program? Men. For those who are disadvantage and working out of homelessness the success rate is dramatically higher for all programs for women than men. Even the programs that are co-ed and have both men and women the men are far more likely to drop out.
In case you think I am full of shit the program I went through after my homelessness was here

Homeless people are on average more mentally unstable because they have to deal with a lot of crap. In fact, in many cases, they're homeless because they're mentally unstable.

More reason to help them though...

it's mostly about class when talking about the poor, and class knows no color

But I thought all white guys were rich and powerful? That all blacks are poor and oppressed? That all women are poor and oppressed?



Do you not realize how irrational some of you are being? You say white men are privileged... Why? Well, you didn't really give me any evidence, but I presume that you're talking about how the top earners in the US are white men. Actually, the top earners are mostly white AND asian men (I guess asian men are privileged too). Anyway, you don't see the illogic in generalizing all white men based on the richest in the country? Shouldn't you be, I don't know, looking at all white men? Lower-class, middle-class, upper-class, etc.? That's one reason I brought up homeless people. Yes, the top earners are men... but most of the homeless are men. But your conclusion is men are privileged? What!? Finally, it doesn't follow that since men are the top earners that women are being shafted. It just might be because men work harder than women (in fact many studies show that men on average do indeed work more hours than women) or that men pursue higher earning jobs. I know there are more men pursuing degrees in the hard sciences (which leads to high paying jobs) than women. Could that be a reason? The reason doesn't have to be sexism.

Not all white men, but look at it. You say white and Asian? you realize that it's 9 out of 10 white men, with the other one out of 10 being an Asian or a woman or a black man? Look at our .....never mind, you think what you think. You're attacking and I'm defending and I'll never win as long as your bias persists.

Comparing homelessness of the very poorest one percent to the privilege that the upper 80 percent has and takes for granted is irrational. And to be honest, in the US there isn't that much of a dichotomy compared to say, 50 years ago, but in close to 2/3's of the world women are still not much more than property. Look that up and argue about it if you want.

[BeautifulFlower85]

So your point is that because on the very bottom of society the men outnumber women they are more privileged than men?

No. But I don't see how you can marry the idea that men are more privileged than women and a fact like there are much more homeless men than women, unless you're blinded with bigotry.

You've state current college graduates and homelessness where women are in the lead.

Yes, that would be another example that runs counter to the idea that men are more privileged than women.

Who beats on who more?

From the statistics I've read it's more or less about 50/50, with men fearing to report any kind of abuse for fear of being laughed at or emasculated.

Who kills who more?

More men are murdered each day than women, probably because people value a woman's life more than a man's.

But if you're talking about who murders who more: men or women? The answer is men murder women more; however, that has nothing to do with privilege or hatred of women. Men are typically bigger and stronger than women, so of course there are more men murdering women. It's harder for women to murder men, in other words. But I don't see how this translates to men are more privileged than women socioeconomically. If you want to make that argument, then go right ahead. Let's see it.

Who rapes who more?

Again, this is ridiculous. It's like asking: Who pees standing up more?

It would be rather difficult for a woman to rape a man, even if she wanted to.

Who makes up the mass majority of those in power in politics?

Who's the current US president? A black man. Herp derp, that must mean black people are in power.

I mean really... you don't see how these arguments don't follow? It's not enough to say there is a correlation. Correlation does not equal causation. You need to provide evidence for why we should think men are privileged. Let me put it this way, let's say that all those who are in power were black. Would it follow that black people are privileged? No, it wouldn't. It would just mean there are more black people in power. It doesn't follow that because there are more black people in power that they were all given special treatment.

in sports?

Again... I don't really see how because more men play sports than women (I don't even know if that's true, honestly, or if the difference is that big) that it follows men are privileged. It may be that women are just on average less interested in sports for biological reasons.

in religion?

You're going to have to explain this one to me.

Secondly, you're going to have to explain the ramifications of religious beliefs on government policies, laws, and how they are sexist against women.

in fashion? Yes, men make more money off of fashion than women do because like all major areas of business men run and own most of the corporations. You would think that this wouldn't be the case in womens fashion but it's true.

Again, correlation does not equal causation.

When you talk about statistics about who is more likely to commit crimes as a whole population, black men or white men the answer is black men, why? because more of them are poor and homeless.

I agree.

However, I was explaining why black people are more likely to be pulled over; they're more likely to be pulled over because statistically they have a higher chance of committing crimes. The police don't care why they do it. They just know that if they want to stop the most crime possible given their time and resource constraints, it is a good idea to keep an eye on black people than, let's say, 80-year old women driving around in station wagons.

It's the same thing with cereal killers. Statistically, a white guy is more likely to be a cereal killer than a black guy, asian man, etc., which is why when police are looking for a cereal killer they give white guys more trouble.

Have you not read or heard about how the police are trying very hard not to profile people?

To appease people like you.

Who is more likely to Abuse someone with foul language or outright violonce when they're upset thus getting kicked out of the program? Men.

Where is your data?

Hey, who is more likely to get drafted into a war: men.

Do you see how juvenile that is?

For those who are disadvantage and working out of homelessness the success rate is dramatically higher for all programs for women than men.

Yes, and according to your logic, that would be sexism against men. Obviously, the women are given special treatment and more attention. Right?

Imagine if these programs were more successful with men. Guess what would happen? People like you would be saying the programs aren't designed with women in mind; that they are sexist.

Comparing homelessness of the very poorest one percent to the privilege that the upper 80 percent has and takes for granted is irrational.

No, what's irrational is generalizing all white men based on who the top earners happen to be, and then concluding that white men are privileged, without taking into considering facts like more homeless are men. If this isn't the definition of bigotry, then I don't know what is.

And to be honest, in the US there isn't that much of a dichotomy compared to say, 50 years ago, but in close to 2/3's of the world women are still not much more than property. Look that up and argue about it if you want.

I think women bad in other countries, particularly in second and third-world countries. But here in the US? I don't think so.

[MFS]

I don't run much anymore, so I make a bad racist.