More explanation of rape culture

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The Other Lizard
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More explanation of rape culture

Postby The Other Lizard » Fri Dec 9, 20:49 2011

We've had a few conversations here about what rape culture actually is, and I just stumbled upon a really great example, and I wanted to share it.

from Jezebel talks about a study that had people look at a list of quotes, and try to discern which quotes were from "men's" magazines, and which ones were from interviews with rapists. Turns out... people can't tell the difference.

The article gives examples of the quotes, many of which talk about how women "want" to be the victim, and are clearly justifications of rape. the article quotes an expert who says "Rapists try to justify their actions, suggesting that women lead men on, or want sex even when they say no". And the men's magazines use the same language and description to talk about women and sex - suggesting that women WANT to be raped.

These magazines are mass-distributed to men on a daily basis... they are a whole industry, largely accepted by society. A culture that normalizes the justification of rape in this way, is rape culture.
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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby Aum » Fri Dec 9, 21:58 2011

I'm bookmarking this for newbies to feminism, or opponents. It doesn't get anymore clear than this.
The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.

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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby cwbyrvr » Sat Dec 10, 15:24 2011

I went through the section guessing where each quote came from, and oddly enough I got most of them right. The more outlandishly offensive comments seemed to come from the "lad mags" and the quotes from rapists (often, not everyone) tended to be more general. I feel like this is partly due to the way a rapist's mind works, they don't want to raise the alarm too much, they're trying to get people (other men at least) to validate how they feel. And the scary thing is that it works.

There's way too much us vs. them mentality between men and women. We are not as different as many people seem to think.

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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby Tookie » Sat Dec 10, 16:05 2011

I've been reflecting on this for a couple of days now, and I'm not convinced.

I'm going to separate the comments into two lists:

Rapist
1. There's a certain way you can tell that a girl wants to have sex . . . The way they dress, they flaunt themselves.

2. Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?

5. What burns me up sometimes about girls is dick-teasers. They lead a man on and then shut him off right there.

7. You know girls in general are all right. But some of them are bitches . . . The bitches are the type that . . . need to have it stuffed to them hard and heavy.

9. You'll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they'll do it willingly.

11. Girls ask for it by wearing these mini-skirts and hotpants . . . they're just displaying their body . . . Whether they realise it or not they're saying, ‘Hey, I've got a beautiful body, and it's yours if you want it.'

13. Some women are domineering, but I think it's more or less the man who should put his foot down. The man is supposed to be the man. If he acts the man, the woman won't be domineering.

14. I think if a law is passed, there should be a dress code . . . When girls dress in those short skirts and things like that, they're just asking for it.


Lad Mag

3. A girl may like anal sex because it makes her feel incredibly naughty and she likes feeling like a dirty slut. If this is the case, you can try all sorts of humiliating acts to help live out her filthy fantasy.

4. Mascara running down the cheeks means they've just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.

6. Filthy talk can be such a turn on for a girl . . . no one wants to be shagged by a mouse . . . A few compliments won't do any harm either . . . ‘I bet you want it from behind you dirty whore' . . .

8. Escorts . . . they know exactly how to turn a man on. I've given up on girlfriends. They don't know how to satisfy me, but escorts do.

10. There's nothing quite like a woman standing in the dock accused of murder in a sex game gone wrong . . . The possibility of murder does bring a certain frisson to the bedroom.

12. You do not want to be caught red-handed . . . go and smash her on a park bench. That used to be my trick.

15. Girls love being tied up . . . it gives them the chance to be the helpless victim.

16. I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.

-----

Without exception, the rapists' quotes reflect a (terrifying) sense of entitlement and desire for control. There is no discourse whatsoever of female desire.

The lad mag quotes, on the other hand, are a mixed bag.

"A girl may like anal sex because it makes her feel incredibly naughty and she likes feeling like a dirty slut. If this is the case, you can try all sorts of humiliating acts to help live out her filthy fantasy."

Doing what a girl likes? Doesn't sound like rape culture to me.

"Filthy talk can be such a turn on for a girl . . . no one wants to be shagged by a mouse . . . A few compliments won't do any harm either . . . ‘I bet you want it from behind you dirty whore' . . ."

Turning on a girl? Doesn't sound like rape culture to me. I'm also curious as to what was omitted from this quote. Somehow I doubt "I bet you want it from behind you dirty whore" was an example of the aforementioned compliment.

"Girls love being tied up . . . it gives them the chance to be the helpless victim."

This one is problematic because of the generalization, but some girls DO like being tied up. Playing the helpless victim is not the same thing as being a helpless victim.

"16. I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them."

Obviously entitled and creepy.

"12. You do not want to be caught red-handed . . . go and smash her on a park bench. That used to be my trick."

My guess is that this is about (consensual) sex in public. Context matters. I hadn't heard the term "smash" before, but I looked into and it definitely means sex, not violence. If it's not consensual then obviously that's not ok. But otherwise... I don't like that sex is portrayed as something he's doing to her. Other than that, there isn't enough here to convince me that's it's icky.

"Mascara running down the cheeks means they've just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out."

Yeah this one is not so great. But it's still about cheering her up. Curious again about the ellipsis.

10. There's nothing quite like a woman standing in the dock accused of murder in a sex game gone wrong . . . The possibility of murder does bring a certain frisson to the bedroom.

Context missing. Did the sex game go wrong accidentally or intentionally? I'm not willing to pass judgement without knowing that. Really this just sounds to me like black humour, probably about asphyxiation.


So I dunno. I really feel like the only lag mag comment that's as disturbing as the rapists' comments is the plasticine one. They are definitely reinforcing hegemonic masculinity (women are subs, men are doms), but there is also an explicit discourse about women's desire which is lacking in the rapists' quotes. For me, an integral part of rape culture is the way in which men are constructed as sexual aggressors and women are constructed as passive and lacking in sexual desire, and I don't see that in (most) of the lad mag quotes.

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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby cwbyrvr » Sat Dec 10, 16:28 2011

I think the big issue, Tookie, is that a lot of people apparently can't tell the two apart. I think the big issue here lies in this quote where they sum up the results of the study - "The participants couldn't reliably identify which statements came from magazines and which from rapists — what's more, they rated the magazine quotes as slightly more derogatory than the statements made by men serving time for raping women. The researchers also showed both sets of quotes to a separate group of men — the men were more likely to identify with the rapists' statements than the lad mag excerpts."

That feels like the big problem to me.

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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby Tookie » Sat Dec 10, 16:39 2011

I do actually find it concerning that they couldn't tell them apart, not because I think it's indicative of the two groups using similar discourses around sex, but because their discourses are so different. People are confusing kink with "she's asking for it"? What kind of fucked up sexual morals make that possible? That's not rape culture, that's prudery.

Also, I think the "men identifying with the statements" thing is suspicious. The lad mag's quotes are mostly about desires. If a man doesn't have those desires, of course he's not going to identify with the statements. Yes, it's upsetting that men identified with the creepy things the rapists were saying, but that's not proving that men's magazines are propagating rape culture, just that rape culture exists. I'd like to read the paper to see if they took the issues I have with the study into account, but it's not published yet.

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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby monk » Sat Dec 10, 17:11 2011


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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby Storage and Disposal » Sat Dec 10, 17:29 2011

For all I know, they just picked the creepiest responses they could find in order to shift the study towards where they wanted it to go. Studies like this do little for me. In this case, they proved that responses in a magazine like For Him Magazine can be sexist. Big surprise there. Equally shocking and horrifying things lie in magazines like Cosmo.
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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby monkeypoop » Sat Dec 10, 18:20 2011


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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby Daktoria » Sat Dec 10, 19:50 2011


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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby Sonic# » Sat Dec 10, 22:46 2011


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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby Daktoria » Sun Dec 11, 1:43 2011


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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby postfeminist » Thu Dec 15, 2:21 2011

Sorry, this is pretty much just hyperbole.

Males and rapists both seeing a woman dressing in next to nothing thinking about sex has nothing to do with men, and everything to do with women. Men and women judge everyone by how they look, we are all responsible for the way we dress, only women are fighting to have less responsibility, despite having so many more options. I've encountered a lot of girls who enjoy being submissive, this is a socialized trait, and does not mean rape is okay, but means that advice along these lines is still accurate - saying it justifies rape is just more hyperbole. Rapists speak English, if you asked a rapist to do math they would do it the same as everyone else, etc.

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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby Daktoria » Thu Dec 15, 8:47 2011

PF, I'm not sure if submissiveness is entirely socialized. For some women, it seems to be out of shame, but for others, they just have an innate emotional preference. You could probably argue it evolved out of a way to identify security. A submissive woman who's open to dominant men will be able to test which men are most protective and providing.

That said, less submissive women could be qualified as harder tests of character, so evolution could go in that direction as well. The problem less submissive women have though is they fail to attract a mate when men aren't as dominant as they expect, yet men still aren't necessarily submissive. I come across this a lot because women, or just people in general, will assume that because I'm not terribly emotionally excited that I must be a submissive masochist. I'm really not, and I hate being teased, but then people will be wise guys and say that I'm playing coy.

In reality, I don't like hierarchy at all because it's a hassle to both control people and be controlled, but simpleminded people insist on hierarchic relations in order to, "Keep it simple, stupid." If need be, I can deal with submissive women as long as they express themselves explicitly, but I really can't deal with dominant women at all. Even catering dominants get annoying over the long run because they try to make you dependent upon them in teaching you to obey. On another note, submissives who "transform" into dominants are tolerable IF they tell you about the transformation. It's a huge hassle playing guessing games over "which side" the submissive really is. They also have to let me take the dominant role simultaneously such as in a fight fuck scenario. Prior submissives who play the catering dom are marginally tolerable, but only if they're genuinely interested in being helpful rather than wanting to forge dependence.

As for dressing, what you just said is the excuse third wave feminists will take to persuade second wave feminists that third wave feminism is a necessity. The bottomline is (some) women, as much as (some) men, enjoy exhibition, so the idea of demanding that women have to repress themselves into modesty comes off as dominating, domination which is the exact opposite of what second wave feminists identify with. Therefore, third wave feminists will argue that second wave feminists must acknowledge the war of position in how the personal is political and that there's no way around it.

Unfortunately, many second wave feminists don't succeed in embracing third wave feminism. To succeed as a third wave feminist, you need to be emotionally flamboyant. You need to have a pugnaciously competitive attitude. If you don't, you're going to get shut down and disappointed unless you're happy playing second fiddle such as a woman who targets men in relationships rather than pursuing a relationship herself.

Of course, this might become the unfortunate norm of the future considering however many marriages that end up in divorce and however many children who are cuckolded or had out of wedlock. It's for this reason that I oppose the welfare state at every beck and call. Former second wave feminists who ignore beta males and claim they're satisfied playing second fiddle with an alpha male could devastate social cohesion in mandating political cuckoldry since beta males will have to pay taxes that go to serve others' children.

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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby Sonic# » Thu Dec 15, 11:04 2011


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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby Daktoria » Thu Dec 15, 13:05 2011


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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby monk » Thu Dec 15, 13:55 2011


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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby lillerina » Thu Dec 15, 14:55 2011

To elaborate on monk's naked thing: a person could fall into someone's lap, blind drunk and wearing nothing but a necklace and a sloppy grin, and the person into whose lap they fell will not rape them unless that person is a rapist. It's rape culture that says that the victim's actions dictate whether they are raped or not. It's not the victim's actions that we should be scrutinising, it's the rapists. When I was raped, I was wearing a pair of jeans and a plain teeshirt. Clothing has nothing to do with it.
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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby Daktoria » Thu Dec 15, 16:01 2011


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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby postfeminist » Thu Dec 15, 16:35 2011

Well shit.

This is pretty much covered in my saying that I do not think submissiveness means being a slave, that stuff gets saved for The Power Exchange. I never said wearing a miniskirt was reason for harassment, but if you choose to wear something which will drew attention, you can't get mad about it. The attention I am talking about are simple looks, perhaps someone trying to start a conversation. I've known girls to start a physical confrontation because a guy walked past the store they were in twice. It's a mall, stores have huge glass fronts, people look into stores, if you're in there he'll probably notice you simply because you're a person in his field of vision.

The real problem with the above example is that the guy had no clue what was going on, yet the store's employees leapt to the girl's defense without knowing what was going on, further than a hysterical girl yelling at a scared and confused guy in the... area in-between stores in the mall? Hallway? Whatever you call that area... concourse? Probably.

Someone said something about how women just want to be judged the same as men? Alright, everyone wearing a skirt right now is gay... sorry, I kind of feel like that language is worse than being called attractive.

Obviously consent matters, what? How did attention translate to harassment and rape? There is so much hyperbole going on there it's ridiculous. I'm out.
Last edited by postfeminist on Thu Dec 15, 18:33 2011, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby monk » Thu Dec 15, 16:58 2011


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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby Daktoria » Thu Dec 15, 17:29 2011


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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby Tookie » Thu Dec 15, 17:41 2011


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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby Storage and Disposal » Thu Dec 15, 17:58 2011

Wait, torture? How hard is it to get a "yes" out of someone that wants to have sex with you? If it's so hard that you have to resort to going through with it without that verbal consent, congratulations, you are a rapist.
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Re: More explanation of rape culture

Postby Daktoria » Thu Dec 15, 18:02 2011



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