Gender and Pronouns in feminism

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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Butterfly North » Sat Dec 24, 10:59 2011


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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Daktoria » Sat Dec 24, 11:11 2011


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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Butterfly North » Sat Dec 24, 11:36 2011


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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Daktoria » Sat Dec 24, 12:31 2011

You're generalizing every instant in life being a "one to one" relationship.

Some are "many to one", some are "one to many", some are "many to many".

Until we've experienced instances, we won't know in advance which instances are which relationships. That's why you need an ontological language.

For example, you can bake a pizza by yourself. You can also bake a pizza with others. (You can also bake many pizzas by yourself, and you can bake many pizzas with others).

"They" doesn't let you know whether someone's baking individually or collectively. If people don't care, they won't give you extra context.

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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Sonic# » Sat Dec 24, 12:35 2011


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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Daktoria » Sat Dec 24, 13:03 2011

Sonic, I know what relevance means. What you're saying about ambiguity and seldomness is actually almost offensive. but you're also telling me that the times ambiguity does happen don't deserve to be respected.

Ontological language is not a wild hare (and your comparison to programming is actually applicable if you consider how when learning from experience, people have to be "programmed"). It's what's necessary to ensure that people don't get punished for being unlucky in learning from experience. It also allows us to abstractly communicate possibilities (and assess risk) which people are yet to experience.

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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Aum » Sat Dec 24, 14:22 2011

^ I think you are too neurotic about language and that is the #1 thing preventing practical discussion with others.

You need to let it go.
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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby monk » Sat Dec 24, 14:24 2011


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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Daktoria » Sat Dec 24, 14:46 2011

Last edited by Daktoria on Sat Dec 24, 15:15 2011, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Aum » Sat Dec 24, 15:14 2011

^ Well now we're getting into spiritual questions. I don't think the difference between luck and unlock implies entitlement at all - it's just one way of explaining how people getting into good or bad circumstance. I don't believe in luck. I believe everywhere is exactly where they're supposed to be.

Speaking of entitlement, your hangups are your own and continuing to try and bulldoze through discussions with your universalist mentality is not serving you. Your views are just as subjective as anyone else's. Trying to feign universality just makes you yourself seem divinely entitled.
The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.

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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Daktoria » Sat Dec 24, 15:18 2011

Xin, you might as well say people are supposed to fail, suffer, be ostracized, go to jail, etc.

Everything in life is not in our control. Elements beyond our control are what we call luck.

Feelings are included in this. We don't choose the physical anatomy we're born into the world with, nor do we choose where in the world we're born.

Those feelings incline us to participate in certain experiences to learn from context over others. They also incline us to interpret context in certain ways.

Only ontology can get around this because only ontology allows us to understand reality independently of our feelings.

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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Aum » Sat Dec 24, 16:00 2011

Last edited by Aum on Sat Dec 24, 16:07 2011, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Butterfly North » Sat Dec 24, 16:06 2011


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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Aum » Sat Dec 24, 16:10 2011

The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.

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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Daktoria » Sat Dec 24, 16:40 2011


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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Rainbow Dolphins » Sat Dec 24, 16:48 2011

I am an athiest also, but I agree with many of the things Xinxang said. You cannot control anything in the world except your own being. You can certainly chalk up emotions to various internal biological functions (which I incidentally do, since I don't beleive in any "self" beyond the physical) but just because they are biological functions, rather than some kind of outside spiritual functions, doesn't necessarily make them outside of your control. (And it doesn't necessarily make them correlate to sex.) I can still control my emotions to an extent, BECAUSE I control my body. In fact, my body is the ONLY thing I can control. Things like meditation and positive thinking are ALL about controlling your emotional reactions. You don't have to settle for what is being DONE to you, you can have power over yourself.

I, too, feel like I was not brought up to understand social norms, and outside of this forum I have a very hard time finding anyone who understand the way I think and feel. That doesn't mean I can't learn to function in society- I can and do. But sometimes it wears on me. But the idea that happiness is something inside of me and not something anyone else has control over helps me deal with it. I want to be clear that I'm not trying to offend anyone who has suffered from depression or other emotional disorders... I mean, those things are inside of you too, they're a product of your body and not always something you have control over, because sometimes your body's chemicals work against you. I've experienced those things, too, and I know you can't just snap your fingers and be happy again. I'm just expressing my belief that just because your emotions and yourself are a product of your physical body doesn't mean they're entirely outside of you... quite the contrary. You ARE your body. Our society creates a false division between "body" and "self," and I think it encourages the helplessness we sometimes feel.
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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Aum » Sat Dec 24, 17:02 2011

The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.

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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Daktoria » Sat Dec 24, 17:07 2011


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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Aum » Sat Dec 24, 17:15 2011

The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.

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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Daktoria » Sat Dec 24, 17:19 2011


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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Aum » Sat Dec 24, 18:10 2011

The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.

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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Daktoria » Sat Dec 24, 18:21 2011

...

Rape victims have pasts. They don't want those pasts repeated, and they don't want others to suffer what they felt.

Rape victims also want to be engaged so they can get over their loss of sense of self and feel secure again.

Both of those deal with generating a general awareness.

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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Rainbow Dolphins » Sat Dec 24, 21:44 2011

For god's sake, no one LETS themselves be raped. It's not a motherfucking choice. I don't know how many times everyone has said this.
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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Butterfly North » Sun Dec 25, 18:12 2011

^Exactly.

Also, note, justice doesn't necessitate remuneration and I'm not sure where you've got that idea from. Your example with the contract isn't analogous to this situation because in the your case a) the person/people to blame for any injustices against you are not the same as those you are expecting compensation from (for example, me) and b) the thing that was taken from you is not something that can be directly transferred back in the manner of money anyway. All you're arguing is that those who were responsible for teaching you these things still hold that responsibility. I was never part of any such explicit or implicit contract with you. Your position is more analogous to someone who lost their lovely house due to the mistakes made by bankers in the financial crisis. If you're totally homeless society owes you some social housing to meet your right to shelter (just as it would owe any homeless person), but you do not have a right to the exact same beautiful house at the expense of totally random strangers even though you not having that house is the result of injustice. I can sympathise with you but I don't owe you anything above what I owe to other people.

If you don't get that then you are speaking a different language to me, so the conversation appears a bit pointless. In this case you could do some research on political theory which might bring you to a more mainstream understanding of rights.

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Re: Gender and Pronouns in feminism

Postby Aum » Sun Dec 25, 18:34 2011

The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.


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