Sexy cosplay. Do you have a problem with it?

[Ama]

Here's a concrete problem I see in the cosplaying community (I was only talking about professional photoshoots before, but since everyone is talking about general cosplaying...); male cosplayers who garner praise are "cool," female are only ever "hot/sexy/etc." I mean, I'm well aware of the fujoshi phenomenon, but they're a tiny (admittedly vocal) percent of the demographic.

For the record, I was talking about both. Anyway. I think lykin is basically right about what the cosplay audience is. Women are mainly participants, men are mainly spectators. So that is a big part of where the terminology comes from. I'm certain if you talked to women about male cosplayers you would find plenty of them willing to use words other than "cool". Also I don't think I'd characterize anime fans in general as adolescent. In Japan, anime is for everyone, not just young people. It pretty much targets all demographics and it's perfectly normal for older men to watch anime or read manga. Cosplay is a completely different matter and likely tends to attract a younger audience, especially in the west which I guess is what you're really talking about anyhow.

And yeah, if you're a woman on the internet and there are visual depictions of you, you'll be objectified. Or in some cases even if there aren't visual depictions.

[sallyspacecase]

well i think the whole thing is disgraceful. god gave you a body to bear children with, not to put on a show for people on the internet. god clearly says not to covet thy naybers wife, and this is what is happening when they are looking at this stuff.

these women should be ashamed.

[Tookie]

Actually, God gave me my body to dance, ride my bike, do somersaults, fuck, jump up and down and a lot of other things that are totally up to me to decide, not up to you. And that goes for everyone. If you don't like porn, don't look at it.

[Sonic#]

Also, taking that commandment at face value, I don't see how a rule meant to regulate men's desires can be applied to blame a woman. Presumably, if a man shouldn't covet a neighbor's wife, that means that he should not covet. It doesn't imply that women should be silent and invisible.

[sallyspacecase]

i still think it's disgraceful. this is why america is in such bad shape these days. we have abandoned god for our own selfishness, and this is what happens.

[Sonic#]

How does dressing in the manner of one's choice imply abandoning God?

ETA: apologies, didn't mean to post without allowing someone else to talk.

[Ama]

well i think the whole thing is disgraceful. god gave you a body to bear children with, not to put on a show for people on the internet. god clearly says not to covet thy naybers wife, and this is what is happening when they are looking at this stuff.

these women should be ashamed.

That's a pretty simplistic way of looking at sexy cosplay. And if you want to be technically accurate, I'm pretty sure that nearly none of the people who see these pictures are neighbors of the people posing in them. But even more than that, it's impossible for a woman to be at fault here because god is clearly talking to the man here. It becomes doubly difficult when the cosplayer is not married, which I would hazard a guess is the case for most of them. So see! It's a non-issue.

Furthermore, I'm pretty sure women are expected to do a lot more than just bear children. But if that was their sole purpose in life, then clearly sexy cosplay would be an effective way of serving god's purpose by enticing men to want to have sex, if that was really the goal for the women doing the cosplaying. But there are a lot of reasons to dress sexily, and not all of them have to do with pleasing men. A lot of women dress sexily because it makes them feel stronger or more confident and good about themselves.

Edit: meh, ninja'd

[great girl wonder]

And if you want to be technically accurate, I'm pretty sure that nearly none of the people who see these pictures are neighbors of the people posing in them. But even more than that, it's impossible for a woman to be at fault here because god is clearly talking to the man here. It becomes doubly difficult when the cosplayer is not married, which I would hazard a guess is the case for most of them. So see! It's a non-issue.

Furthermore, I'm pretty sure women are expected to do a lot more than just bear children. But if that was their sole purpose in life, then clearly sexy cosplay would be an effective way of serving god's purpose by enticing men to want to have sex, if that was really the goal for the women doing the cosplaying.

So much win.
God wants sooo many babies and nerds are the best gene pool clearly for breeding.

[Hufflepuff]

That's not a problem with the cosplayers, it's a problem with the commenters. This is not a hard distinction to make.

You don't think a teenage girl who dresses up like Bayonetta and posts a pic of herself with her boobs hanging halfway out on cosplay.com and checks the little "Allow Comments" checkbox knows what she's doing? Do you honestly think she dressed that way and posed that way and posted the picture online for any other reason than to have her physical looks complimented by tons of anonymous men? Sure, there's bound to be exceptions to the rule, but that's the way it is in general.

To me, that itself is problematic. It's more of this cultural "women have to be sexy; women are judged by their looks" nonsense, and when Suzy Sexy Cosplayer plays along with it, she's participating in her own objectification.

I mean, again, there's exceptions to every rule, I'm sure there are some sexy cosplayers who do that sort of thing but aren't mentally caught up in it, but most probably are. Most of these young girls posing like this probably seek validation through compliments on their looks. Which, if it was an individual thing would be bad enough, but it's cultural, it's imposed, it's demanded.

For contrast, just look at all the vitriol fat/ugly cosplayers get. In a culture where women aren't allowed not to be sexy, pandering to the worst offenders can only be harmful.

Now, it would be very fair of you to say, "But Hufflepuff, everything you just said applies exactly the same to any sexy photos women post online, so how can you say you're okay with that, but not cosplay?"

Well, this goes back to the fact that originally, I was talking about professional photoshoots (I keep wanting to link to examples, but I don't want to give them any hits); just regular people cosplaying wasn't remotely on my mind. I was talking about when a photographer decides he (almost always "he") wants to do a cosplay photoshoot, it seems to me that a whole lot more sexism and misogyny (and honestly, misandry) underlie that decision than if he was just to do, say, a bikini photoshoot.

Because probably 99% of heterosexual men like seeing attractive women in bikinis, you know? All such a photoshoot is necessarily (<-- key word there) pandering to is the normal, healthy sexual attraction of heterosexual men. But a sexy cosplay photoshoot necessarily panders to sexist attitudes. I mean, a man might look at a swimsuit model and see just a piece of meat, but when a guy looks at a sexy cosplayer, I fear he sees a subserviant piece of meat.

Yes, a simple bikini photoshoot can be loaded with sexism and misogyny and even misandry. But it's not by default; it's possible it's just simple, innocent "naked women are nice to look at." Sexy cosplay photoshoots, however, do necessarily bring in all sorts of mental baggage, like subserviance and so forth. At least that's how it seems to me.

For the record, I was talking about both. Anyway. I think lykin is basically right about what the cosplay audience is. Women are mainly participants, men are mainly spectators. So that is a big part of where the terminology comes from. I'm certain if you talked to women about male cosplayers you would find plenty of them willing to use words other than "cool".

That's fair. I need to start chatting up some of these young sexy cosplayers. Problem is, how do I do that without coming across as one of those pathetic commenters of theirs who thinks he has a chance?

Also I don't think I'd characterize anime fans in general as adolescent. In Japan, anime is for everyone, not just young people. It pretty much targets all demographics and it's perfectly normal for older men to watch anime or read manga.

No it's not, that's a grand delusion held by Western anime fans. Yes, there's seinen and josei manga and anime, but it's not like manga and anime consumption is equiprobably distributed through all demographics in Japan. I don't have the exact statistics, but well, well above 50% of manga and anime consumed in Japan is consumed by 8-14 year olds or whatever the age bracket there is. And what's more, there's a big difference between a fourty-year-old Japanese woman who reads Kuragehime and a sixteen year old American boy whose bedroom walls are plastered with anime posters, who has two full bookshelves full of manga, another one full of DVDs, etc.

Otaku are far more loathed by the general public in Japan than in America. Because in America, it's just like any other nerd-bashing (twenty years ago it'd be D&D players, thirty years ago it'd be Star Wars fanatics, etc.), but in Japan, the attitude is, "these idiots are giving us a bad name. And attracting freaks from Europe and America." Not to mention that Japanese culture is far more conformist. An otaku is much more likely to garner a reaction of "meh, whatever floats your boat" in America. In Japan, it's more likely to garner, "ugh, freak."

Don't get me wrong, you or lykin -- there's lots of anime and manga that I like. But I'm not going to pretend there's no undercurrent of sexism or misogyny because of that. Plus, remember Sturgeon's Law. Rose of Versaille is enchanting and Lucky Star is hilarious and Wolf's Rain is beautiful and Serial Experiments Lain is intellectual, but in any given season, in any given year, 90% of what's released is unwatchable/unreadable crap. Same goes with movies, books, music, videogames, everything. Good stuff is in the minority; don't let the fact that anime isn't mainstream in America skew your vision so much you can't see that. And certainly don't let it blind you to the rampant sexism throughout anime and manga.

[Sonic#]

You don't think a teenage girl who dresses up like Bayonetta and posts a pic of herself with her boobs hanging halfway out on cosplay.com and checks the little "Allow Comments" checkbox knows what she's doing? Do you honestly think she dressed that way and posed that way and posted the picture online for any other reason than to have her physical looks complimented by tons of anonymous men? Sure, there's bound to be exceptions to the rule, but that's the way it is in general.

You can't think of any other reason for her to post that picture and allow comments? Like, maybe, to have people compliment her for her faithful recreation? Or to allow people to ask for tips on how she did it just so? To allow people to say, "Hey, I saw you at a con! You looked great!"

Because probably 99% of heterosexual men like seeing attractive women in bikinis, you know?

I prefer a one-piece and I don't like to have my desires normalized as a desire for a gender, so no.

I mean, a man might look at a swimsuit model and see just a piece of meat, but when a guy looks at a sexy cosplayer, I fear he sees a subserviant piece of meat.

They present themselves as subservient simply because they dress within a subculture that you associate with subservience? I don't have that association, and it seems fairly weighted to your own experiences. Or, rather, I don't see how the sexism within anime is any more pervasive than the sexism in literature, in comics, in video games, in fashion, and in society generally. That's not to say that all sexism is the same, but that I don't see what's special in anime that prompts your reaction, especially when you treat swimsuit posing as nonproblematic. Nor do I see the benefit of criticizing the people who pose for the photographs.

[edit the sad parts]

I was about to say, "welcome to fashion photography", but then you clarified further(not that I agree with you at all). So you are against a BDSM photo shoot as well then?

[Rainbow Dolphins]

That's not a problem with the cosplayers, it's a problem with the commenters. This is not a hard distinction to make.

You don't think a teenage girl who dresses up like Bayonetta and posts a pic of herself with her boobs hanging halfway out on cosplay.com and checks the little "Allow Comments" checkbox knows what she's doing? Do you honestly think she dressed that way and posed that way and posted the picture online for any other reason than to have her physical looks complimented by tons of anonymous men? Sure, there's bound to be exceptions to the rule, but that's the way it is in general.

OK, here's my problem with your argument: if the scenario you depicted is a good representation of the situation, what is wrong with a woman specifically trying to be sexually provocative for attention and gaining the desired outcome, if that is her choice? Some women enjoy being sexually objectified and some women enjoy feeling subservient. Your post is coming across as slut-shaming pretty hardcore.

[Ama]

...

Let's assume that the teenage girl in question does "know what she's doing" and is posting that picture up on the internet is doing so because she wants to be called hot or sexy and get a self esteem boost from doing so. I'm not sure that I care. There are much worse ways she could go about that (4chan, stickam, random sexting). Ultimately it's her body and her decision, and if she is looking for others to boost her self esteem, she probably could really use that boost to her confidence. Although I will agree, the attitude that a lot of people have that women are only of value if they're attractive is extremely problematic. What a person chooses to do of their own volition is, to me, a non-issue. But that a young girl might think that she needs to be sexy and desirable to be of any value is a problem and something I would like to see change. Posting up sexy pictures isn't causing that though. Also, having looked up some bayonetta cosplay, it's honestly not even that bad from the point of view of skin showing. Bayonetta is a bit on the fetishy side of things though, and probably not a look parents would encourage their teens to go for.

That said, I agree with sonic that there are plenty of other reasons that a person would allow others to view and comment on these pictures aside from seeking male validation of their worth, and saying that they could only be doing so for one reason is pretty simplistic. I would be willing to bet that there are as many women who have posted up photos that have been genuinely creeped out by some of the comments they've received as there are who are who post up pictures looking for external validation. But whatever a woman's reasons are for posting up pictures of herself, she is in the right and any perception of wrongness should be solely in the mind of the viewer.

And back to the topic of professional photoshoots - Firstly, unless the professional cosplaying business works very differently from the modeling world I'm familiar with, just because a man decides he wants to do a cosplay shoot doesn't mean that he can pick from just any model and say "you're going to be wearing cosplay today." He would have to look for a model that specifically was interested in doing cosplay, or listed it as something that she would be willing to do. It's a transaction that heavily depends on the model's say so, unless for some reason this model is under a long-term contract where she has no say in what sorts of things she may or may not be wearing. So there is immediately a point where she has to have at some point consented to doing a cosplay photoshoot. And if she isn't comfortable with doing it, she doesn't have to. Secondly, there's going to be girls who actively seek out photographers who would be interested in doing cosplay shoots with them, which should really be very difficult to find sexist.

I also agree with sonic that there's not really anything more sexist about wanting to do a cosplay-themed shoot to begin with than something like swimsuits. Would you think cosplay was inherently sexist if it involved a female character who didn't fit into stereotypical gender roles? It's very hard to justify a bikini photoshoot as not just blatantly catering to men and what they want to see. Sexy cosplay seems to me to actually have more for the woman to potentially take out of it than a bikini photoshoot could. But anyway. I really don't have the same ideas of subservience that you do with regards to sexy cosplay and find it difficult to look at it that way. But if the model for the photoshoot felt that there was some level of subservience involved, again I would have to imagine she was okay with that.

If you want to try chatting up the sexy cosplayers, just don't say anything creepy and you should be good. Talk to them like they're a person and not just a piece of meat. Say "I like your costume" instead of "I wish life was like hentai so I could tentacle rape you right here right now", little things like that go a long way in making you not sound like a crazy person.

American television isn't really that different, we target most of our programs at a younger audience. And most of it is just as sexist and braindead as most anime. And I would argue that most of our cartoons and shows targeted at children are worse in other ways. Anime is sometimes designed with adults in mind though, even if typical viewers are younger. Just the fact that the seinen genre exists is my point, that not all anime viewers are adolescents and older viewers are expected. If you're going to talk about american viewers though then yes, in the states we primarily keep to younger viewers. I was only talking about japan myself. Anyway, it's sad that I can honestly think american television is nearly as sexist as japanese television, but it pretty much is... our sexism is just a bit more subtle and involves less panty flashing.

I was about to say, "welcome to fashion photography", but then you clarified further(not that I agree with you at all). So you are against a BDSM photo shoot as well then?

Personally I find this a very interesting question because a friend of mine does bondage-themed photo shoots from time to time. Now obviously this would seem to have an air of subservience to it for you, but her own reasons for doing it have little to do with subservience, and she has never once gone to see a photographer just because he wanted to do a shoot with her. She is generally the one to make first contact, and she gets to decide if she wants to do a shoot with that person or not. But again, if she was doing it because she wanted to feel that way, what would be the problem with it? If it's her choice and her desire, I don't think there is anything wrong with the scenario.

And of course I have to agree with RD, as she is basically spelling out better the argument I was trying to make earlier

[lykin005]

In my mind taking validation and getting an ego boost from objectification and comments on your sexiness is inherently damaging and problematic. Regardless of whether or not you "want" to do it if your reason for doing it is the previous it is damaging to yourself, your view of yourself, and to others. At the very least it doesn't do anything to help. I agree if you want to, you should! But I would hope you want to do it for some (admittedly incomprehensible to me.) reason other than validation or ego/confidence boost.

[lillerina]

In my mind taking validation and getting an ego boost from objectification and comments on your sexiness is inherently damaging and problematic. Regardless of whether or not you "want" to do it if your reason for doing it is the previous it is damaging to yourself, your view of yourself, and to others. At the very least it doesn't do anything to help. I agree if you want to, you should! But I would hope you want to do it for some (admittedly incomprehensible to me.) reason other than validation or ego/confidence boost.

The fact remains, however, that you are not the therapist or mentor of these girls, and so if they choose to have sexy photos taken in videogame, movie or other franchise inspired costume, and then post them online, I think they should be allowed and able to go ahead and do that without fear of slut shaming or negative judgment as to the content of their characters or their motivations.

[Ama]

In my mind taking validation and getting an ego boost from objectification and comments on your sexiness is inherently damaging and problematic. Regardless of whether or not you "want" to do it if your reason for doing it is the previous it is damaging to yourself, your view of yourself, and to others. At the very least it doesn't do anything to help. I agree if you want to, you should! But I would hope you want to do it for some (admittedly incomprehensible to me.) reason other than validation or ego/confidence boost.

As I said there are plenty of other reasons you could do it, but pretty much what lilly said.

[monk]

and hopefully, someday in the future, society will be structured in such a manner that our young girls wont often grow up to seek validation in such a manner, or if they do, that sort of validation will be just one type available amongst many others that value their talent, character & intelligence also vs just their physical attributes.

[lykin005]

In my mind taking validation and getting an ego boost from objectification and comments on your sexiness is inherently damaging and problematic. Regardless of whether or not you "want" to do it if your reason for doing it is the previous it is damaging to yourself, your view of yourself, and to others. At the very least it doesn't do anything to help. I agree if you want to, you should! But I would hope you want to do it for some (admittedly incomprehensible to me.) reason other than validation or ego/confidence boost.

The fact remains, however, that you are not the therapist or mentor of these girls, and so if they choose to have sexy photos taken in videogame, movie or other franchise inspired costume, and then post them online, I think they should be allowed and able to go ahead and do that without fear of slut shaming or negative judgment as to the content of their characters or their motivations.

You don't want to help them?

[lillerina]

^I want to help them by changing society so that they're free to wear the clothes they want without people telling them that they only want to wear those clothes because they're promiscuous, or have daddy issues, or low self-esteem, and so that they're free to post photographs of themselves online without fear of being sexually targetted by creeps, and so that they're valued for their brains, hearts and skills as much as their breasts, legs and asses. I want to help them by changing society so that media shows more well-rounded, fully thought out female characters, genderqueer characters, queer and trans* and disabled characters and characters of colour, so that their choice of characters to dress up as isn't limited to the ingenue or the scheming bitch. I want to help them by changing society so that they truly have all the options available to them that we pay lip service to when we say "of course a woman can be president/an astronaut/run a company" and we ignore that it's harder for women in our society to do that, and I want society to change so that they genuinely can go as far as their ambition and their ability will take them. I want to help these girls like I want to help every oppressed and disenfranchised person in the world, lykin, by changing society, not by trying to say that they shouldn't wear these clothes or pose for these pictures or by trying to attribute to them some other motive for putting on a fun outfit and posing in a fun way for pictures.

[lykin005]

I see. I will have to think about that, thank you.

Edit: If it is a part of a deeper issue, shouldn't you try to help them with that issue? I can't see how me leaving them free to do as they please is beneficial if what they do is damaging to their psyche or their ego or self-perception or if it indeed propagates sexism or sexist attitudes. I can't speak for you (and so wont.) but I view sex as a very personal and private thing I suspect you and others may think differently. This makes it hard for us to reach common ground on this sort of issue.

[Tookie]

Sex and sexuality mean very different things to very different people. So yes, I (and likely others) don't necessarily view sex in the same way that you do.

But that said, I wouldn't appreciate unsolicited psychological advice from a stranger in any context.

[DWH]

Yeah. At some point, you realize that by not wearing a sexy costume that you actually really like because con dudes can be creepers, you're letting the patriarchy control what costumes you make, and that is the opposite of feminism. To blame women for wearing things that evoke crude comments, as though it absolves the creepers involved of all responsibility for their words and actions, is beyond ridiculous.

Do we know what we're getting into when we put on a costume? Yes, absolutely. But that some men are lewd and crude isn't going to stop me from making a skin-baring costume if it's a costume I really like and want to wear. Not to mention it's a person wearing a costume, not a walking personification of the costume, and all parties involved are aware of this. If a girl dresses up as a Twi'lek slave dancer, she is not actually a slave dancer, and it's not okay to say she was in any way asking for anything because she dressed up like that.

What I think people are missing is why people dress up in costumes. It's not always for the feedback, though hearing that you look awesome is always lots of fun. Sometimes, you really love the character that wears something. Sometimes, it's about the engineering challenges involved in constructing a costume. Sometimes, it's because no one else has done it, and you want to see if you can be the first. Costuming almost always as much about the process of making it as it is about wearing it. My roommate has a costume that requires four hours to get her into and involves using double bald caps, but she loves having made it because she's the only person with that version of the costume, and the only person who has done the bald caps well. And let's be honest- if you've put that many hours into making something, why would you not wear it, and take epic photos while wearing it?

Is it a problem that our local Twi'lek slave dancer needs multiple burly bodyguards when she's requested at a party? Hell yes it is. But that doesn't mean she shouldn't wear it. It means that people should refrain from being assholes.

[Sonic#]

What I think people are missing is why people dress up in costumes. It's not always for the feedback, though hearing that you look awesome is always lots of fun. Sometimes, you really love the character that wears something. Sometimes, it's about the engineering challenges involved in constructing a costume. Sometimes, it's because no one else has done it, and you want to see if you can be the first. Costuming almost always as much about the process of making it as it is about wearing it. My roommate has a costume that requires four hours to get her into and involves using double bald caps, but she loves having made it because she's the only person with that version of the costume, and the only person who has done the bald caps well. And let's be honest- if you've put that many hours into making something, why would you not wear it, and take epic photos while wearing it?

Thanks for that. Earlier, I replied in this thread stating a few reasons why people cosplay that don't have to go to motives of self-assurance. Then others pointed out that, really, the motives ought not be under scrutiny by us, since we are ill-positioned to judge them. Then your post rounds it out - it was unfair of many others and me to to reduce these desires to particular motives like feedback. It can be for this reason, that reason, yet another reason, and the center of it is desire itself.

Here I've been doing the very things that Eve Sedgwick would speak against, that even Freud and Lacan would do only with caution: I've been pathologizing desires. I've been trying to identify these desires and list them out, as a good-natured attempt to explain to Hufflepuff why these desires are valid and reasonable. But in doing so, I've held certain desires above others, without challenging what lies at the root of the disagreement, namely the assumptions that each of us carry about how the desires of a cosplayer, and desires generally, work.

I do not think that the content of any form (be it anime or swimsuits) is sufficient to make me object to the desires of the person wishing to wear them, nor should I try to make up hypothetical diagnoses of those desires in order to speak against them.

[Butterfly North]

You know, I've been avoiding posting in this topic cos I just so ignorant about cosplay, so thank you DWH, I feel like I understand a bit better now. With that bit of context and explanation I think re-reading the topic I'm seeing parallels with debates I've seen on makeup, i.e. should we be against makeup because we're feminists? Or, should we be against high heels because we're feminists? LOL NO.

[lillerina]

^But should we be against people being expected to wear makeup and high heels just because they're women, because we're feminists? Fuck yes. Because it all comes down to choice, and allowing people to make the choice that works for them.