Future management

[Fitzi]

I'm not judging just asking. You fight for your rights and future. Your future is very important for you (which is all right of course). Future is something what will happen and nobody has a right to take our future right ? Why then you promote taking somebody's future (yes I mean unborn kids) while fighting so much for your one and saying "My body, my decision". Don't tell me that kid will take your future because it's a big lie. Kids don't take anyone's future but may change it of course. This is a very important difference. I know that abortion is very polurar in UK which doesn't neccesarly mean it's right. In some countries majority of the people thinks that being lesbian or gay must be severly punished. Are they right ? Well no. The ussual reaction when somebody starts talking about abortion is closing the topic or shouting "It's not your business" (for the kid it's also not a good business). Is it getting blind or trying to hide ? If you've got any arguments tell it, don't escape and I can tell you mine (even if they are right or not...). In my opinion women should protect their kids (expected or not) and fight for their rights against tohose who don't like or don't want them (ex."father, grandmother, friends, boss, etc."). I would say that even giving a kid to adoption house is far better as I knew many kids who didn't have parents or had parents who didn't want them and you know what, every one of them was taking a real life and enjoyed it, even one good word was a real sign of love for them. Everyone of them wants to live, to have dreams and have a hope for a better future (like we all)... For me a raeal feminist (who I'll support by all means) is a girl who cares not only about herself.Thanks .

[Butterfly North]

Why then you promote taking somebody's future

1. A foetus is not 'someone' because it is not a person. If you want to debate this, feel free.
2. We do not promote or encourage abortion, we believe that it should be up to the individual to choose. Please refer to this thread for more details: viewtopic.php?f=40&t=44203

[Fitzi]

"1. A foetus is not 'someone' because it is not a person.". According to what ? Well it's only opinion of some people, some of them think that they are already persons (I also do), so your point of view can't be 100% truth. Even if you don't take them as persons, you can't deny that only you've got influence to let them become a person by letting them stay alive (you can't also deny that they're alive). Who are we to decide about who will become a human and who will became worse than an animal (even animals have their rights). What in your opinion makes the foetus a person ? The fact that somebody wants it, maybe you can see it, someone's imagination or maybe husband's or mother's permission ? What rules are you using to "create" and separate a person from just a meat ? This is for me a little scary and I'm a man who experienced many scary things in my life. Can 2 centimeters of difference (your skin thickness) be a difference between beign a human or a scrap ? Is somebody's child a piece of meat only when is in the woman's belly and shortly after birth becames a human ? Does it make any sense ? Not for me. Seriously, at which moment of foetus's life you agree that foetus become a person ?

2. We do not promote or encourage abortion, we believe that it should be up to the individual to choose. Please refer to this thread for more details: viewtopic.php?f=40&t=44203[/quote] OK but by doing what you do you try to give other people chance to do it so you promote it anyway.

[edit the sad parts]

"1. A foetus is not 'someone' because it is not a person.". According to what ? Well it's only opinion of some people, some of them think that they are already persons (I also do), so your point of view can't be 100% truth.

Here's the thing: under the law, a foetus is not a person. If you have a problem with this, please move somewhere where this is not true. Under the law, here, the foetus is not a person until it is outside of the womb, living and breathing on its own. Don't police other's choices. You can keep and raise as many children as you like. You could even put your money where your mouth is and start adopting.

I am glad I live in Canada where this issue will not be revisited, ever.

P.S you are kidding yourself if you think you aren't judging.

[Fitzi]

Well I may highlight that in some countries it's legal to stone somebody for beign a gay for example. During the second world war the law was allowing to kill Jews with no consequence. Still people belived they were doing the right thing. Amazing ? The law in this case means nothing for me. Even the law can be wrong sometimes don't you think ?

[Sonic#]

I give people the chance to say something; that doesn't mean that I encourage or endorse what they say. I give people the space for them to determine the answers to difficult questions for themselves; that doesn't mean I encourage them to take any one action.

Your approach to the abortion debate is declarative - a fetus fulfills your standards for what entitles it to status as a human being, and you think that rule should be universally applied. As you say, that is the opinion of some people. If you are ever pregnant, you will have every right to follow that opinion. However, that opinion is not universally shared, and (more importantly) the status of the fetus is so relative and so ambiguous, bound as it is to a pregnant person who needs no proof or argument of humanity. That's not to say we don't have deep personal convictions on the subject, but rather that we trust each other to choose birth or choose family planning.

If you've looked at the other thread, you've read this:

You can be pro-abortion or anti-abortion, and that's a personal thing that each individual has to decide for hirself, and with every pregnancy, planned or not, a pregnant person has to decide "Do I want to carry this pregnancy to term? Do I want to abort it?" For some people they'll be pro-abortion because that's the best choice for them, and for some people abortion is not ever a real option, and they'd be anti-abortion, and that's fine. But pro-abortion and anti-abortion is about personal choice in personal circumstances.

So your request for benchmarks can't be met with a single definitive answer. We generally agree that at birth an infant should be loved and protected. We also generally degree that before gametes make a zygote, the gametes are not potential humans who deserve our every protection. Beyond that, I trust others to decide for themselves where a line lies.

Edit - corrected a sentence fragment that really bothered me.

[Fitzi]

Well I try to understand your point of view. You mentioned about family planning. If I'm right you mean abortion as a form of family planning (correct me if I'm wrong as English is not my mother tongue ). If yes I can tell you that I don't think it's a family planning anymore at this stage. Family planning is avoiding to become pregnant, not stopping a pregnancy becuse it's to late. It's like going by train with no ticket, you can do it but if you are caught just pay the ticket and don't throw the controller through the window because it's not his fault but your only. You know the railway rules don't you. Why a kid (or even single foetus) has to pay price for my mistakes and inresponsibility ? Yes, it could be everyone's personal choice IF there was nobody else involved. Fore some human for some nobody.

[edit the sad parts]

If you can't keep your dirty legs closed, bitches, you're going to be mothers carry that burden to term and birth it

There, I paraphrased for you.

Coming here and trying to start this debate is going to get you no where, I'm afraid. We've had it a million times. We've heard it a million times. I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by rehashing it. If it's a new perspective, I think you're lying, based on your responses.

Actually didn't we have a rule somewhere about not debating abortion itself on this forum?

edit: I fixed it for you, Fitzi. If you don't have the anatomy to become pregnant, I care even less about your opinion on this one(that's not to say that I care about anyone's opinion on this one. As your opinion ends where my body begins).

[anonymousrabbit]

I don't think it's a family planning anymore at this stage. Family planning is

Nice job ignoring any of Sonic's real points before derailing the conversation on an irrelevant tangent about the semantics of family planning. That does so much to reassure us that you actually wish to participate in an actual conversation instead of just ranting and projecting in a troll-like manner.

Also, please read the FAQ. Double posting (posting with less than two posts after your last post) is not allowed.

[Fitzi]

There is another thing I'd like to share with you. I'm a lucky and happy father of two wonderful kids (a girl and a boy). We are not planning the third one but if my wife was pregnant again we would never (and I realy hope-never) remove even a single foetus becasue I would not handle the loss of another lovely kid who would grow from the fetous. It's like I would never allow my kids to be born - huge loss of my real I mean real life. My kids are a real treasure for me and their foetus is like a pearl which cannot be waisted by anyone at any stage. Some of the people complain that they're not ready for kids (money, money, money, etc.) but realy there will be never a perfect time to have kids in today's world and the clock is still clicking.

[Fitzi]

No. Nobody has to be a mother. You can leave the kid in hospital. Don't you ? Nobody even will ask. See the difference ?

[Fitzi]

Everyone can have unplanned pregnancy (and it's nothing wrong) but what you do next totally depends on you. There you can meet responsibility versus ego or somebody's influence.

[Fitzi]

O yes. I'm sorry I didn't read FAQ properly. My fault...

[Sonic#]

Everyone can have unplanned pregnancy (and it's nothing wrong) but what you do next totally depends on you. There you can meet responsibility versus ego or somebody's influence.

Agreed. And abortion can be a responsible decision, just like having a child can be a responsible decision. I recommend you try to address my earlier point - you can define when life begins for yourself between two general boundaries, the creation of a zygote and birth, but you can't define it for other people, because the question of choosing to keep or choosing to terminate a pregnancy is too personal and too ambiguous to have any one rule be true all the time.

[Fitzi]

Sonic. You play with my words . You know I didn't mean it...

[monk]

No fitzi, you're missing sonics point. When two people have sex it starts with millions of sperm cruising around and then one lucky sperm finds and egg and forms a zygote. That zygote is just a super cell and it's about the size of the head of a pin, Is that a baby? Of course not. When that cell grows and divides into two cells, is that a baby? of course not. As the cells continue to multiply they get more and more complicated until eventually they form and fetus and become a baby. What sonic is saying is that where in that timeline between sperm cell and baby that the thing is actually a viable person is debatable and since it is debatable you cannot dictate to others when those cells can or cannot be removed from their host and disposed of.

[Aum]

Why is it always men who are anti-choice? You say if your wife accidentally gets pregnant with a third child, that you guys will go through with it. I believe that choice is up to her, not you. She is the one who will have to endure the pregnancy, its health risks, and its changes to her body.

Whether or not you are for or against abortion is your personal choice, but when you advocate the removal of that choice from others you are entering the territory of fundamentalism. That is the root of modern America's problem, not "murdering innocents". Fundamentalists just can't leave well enough alone. There are plenty of pro-lifers out there who acknowledge that abortion is going to exist whether or not it is legal, so they relegate their beliefs to their personal lives only. It's the fundamentalists who are driving the current attacks on women who are the problem. They are also driving environmental problems, pro-capitalism and corporatism, war, etc.

Once Christian fundamentalism is dealt with in the United States, all of these problems will improve drastically, which includes taking a delusion-free look at the state of how many humans are currently inhabiting this planet and the problems it is causing.

[Fitzi]

As far as I know my wife would not stop pregnancy if she was pregnant again because of her choice (but anyway I wouldn’t let her to do an abortion even if she changed her mind...). It’s not my lack of respect for women. I do respect women and I know (well I can imagine only really – I’ve been with her all the time during our kids’ birth) how hard a pregnancy can be (I’m happy being a man ). The point is that I respect not only women but also other people including foetus (for me it’s a person with his future in parents’ hands). So in my (and many other people) point of view allowing to do an abortion is equal with permission to kill the third person involved in our mistakes but completely innocent. I can’t allow for this as in my eyes I would be responsible for my kid’s death (by not protecting him to let him become completely independent in the future). If you allow a foetus to go on living you will see it’s nothing else than a person. Even if they are 6 months old (I mean the foetus) they react for many typically “human’s” things, they suck their thumb for example. You can’t tell me that a foetus is not alive because it’s got exactly the same symptoms of live as born human (for example their hearts, brains, all the body, it’s not a plant). It’s a lie saying that you don’t stop a LIFE of a foetus as abortion DO STOP LIFE functions. The choice of women ? They’ve got plenty of choice how not to become pregnant. The thing is that sex is now common to watching TV, eating crisps and having fan by all means. The fact that it’s one of the most important and influencing “activities” in the world is not important because of our habit to care about ourselves and trying to do some charity (there is nothing wrong with charity of course) to help making opinion about us a bit more enthusiastic. Everyone knows the possible result of sex when goes to the bed and accept it in name of a pleasure only (in many cases). Why is it so easy to take this “risk” ? It’s because abortion is so common and falsely helpful these days that almost nobody cares about consequences of their own ego. We can always hear “my life, my womb, my right to have sex, my choice, etc.” which is right if people are responsible and can cope with a consequence of their “freedom” but most can’t cope so they look for an easy escape to go on their lives like they only want. To make our well being reasonable we even call this a family planning so it sounds nice (because the sound of cut legs and hands or crushed heads is not as nice - I'm sorry to write is but this is a FACT of abortion which nobody wishes to see becuse this shows the real abortion face). Summarising foetus is not a plant, it’s got the same life functions before birth as after birth. Saying it’s not a human because we can’t see it or accept it is for me horrible, sorry. I mention that the role of man should be support his women by going through but not helping with both to "escape" from a result of their inresponsibility. Don't get me wrong please. I'm not saying that people who do abortion are bad (people are usually good), but abortion itself is a very bad "staff" and idea in my opinion. Imagine what happen if your loved child will become someday a Pro-Life member and ask why you killed his brothers and sisters ? Will you tell him (or her) that it was only a piece of a useless meat ? Will you face it if he will cry for each unborn baby (what some people do) ? These are serious and difficult things committed so easily.

[Sonic#]

1. Who in this thread has said that a fetus was a piece of meat or a plant? Please cease to throw up straw arguments. No one here is arguing that an abortion should be a trivial decision.
2. Your personal disgust at what other people may reasonably believe in no way diminishes the reasonableness of it. You have said nothing that proves definitively that the fetus deserves the same rights as an independent human, or that, if it deserves some rights, its rights trump the right of the mother. At best, the qualities you list (heartbeat; mannerisms) only prove what we all already know - it is living, and could develop into a human.
3. Your argument that abortion is recent and related to a greater emphasis on sex - no and no. Abortifacents have been available since people have understood the uses of herbs. Sex has been as common as watching TV* since long before TV was common. God, in in the medieval period they had so much sex. If you wish to villify casual sex, again, that's your decision, but calling abortion the "easy way out" is both naive and wrong. (I know no one who has described it as easy.) In reference to your accusation that I twisted your words, it's true. I untwisted your suggestion that abortion is an irresponsible choice. A woman makes the choice and lives with it. It's the very definition of responsible.
4. That's an overdramatic image of abortion that you describe. I don't use the name "family planning" to sanitize abortion, but to describe its intended effects. Do you want to see an abortion? Here's one: http://www.thisismyabortion.com/
Most abortions occur before the embryo develops into a fetus. The vast majority occur in the first trimester. What you describe is extremely atypical.
5.

As far as I know my wife would not stop pregnancy if she was pregnant again because of her choice (but anyway I wouldn’t let her to do an abortion even if she changed her mind...).

It's not her choice if you won't let her choose. That's not to say that you can't say, "I will break up with you if you do X." But to say you "wouldn't let her?" How do you propose to do that without violating her responsibility for her own choice?

*hyperbole aside.

[Fitzi]

1. Who in this thread has said that a foetus was a piece of meat or a plant? Nobody said that. I just compared it in this awful way according to value (for some people) and to final (unwanted in some ways) destination of a foetus – a medical waste rubbish bin (short travel down from a jug or a plate).

2. At best, the qualities you list (heartbeat; mannerisms) only prove what we all already know - it is living, and could develop into a human. So we agree at some point foetus is living. So an abortion stops it’s life does it not? If we both here talk about a living creature than tell me why “doctors” break their Hippocrates Oath which clearly describes “I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion”. Who are this “doctors” ? The wombs’ cleaners, flesh collectors or what ? As I mentioned it’s already a human but at very early stage of live and even good doctors knows that and refuse any abortion. The difference between being in or outside a womb which makes it human or ...not human is for me unacceptable as a logic thinking. There is no logic in this. Even after a birth a baby (not foetus anymore, taaddaaa !) still requires 24 hours a day care and is completely dependable of his own mother. The difference is fact that we can see now a face so this means we just wanted that kid to be born and by this we classified it as a human even at early stage. I wonder if woman who is pregnant (even after a few abortions) and wants this pregnancy does not think about her foetus as a...kid. It’s all in our heads but not necessarily right and fair.


3. If you wish to villify casual sex, again, that's your decision, but calling abortion the "easy way out" is both naive and wrong. (I know no one who has described it as easy.) Why is it not easy ? Isn’t it only a foetus remove ? Why is it so uneasy? Because of feeling that we can make mistake by doing this ? Because we are afraid that some day we can recognise ourselves in this kid (foetus) or because we afraid to look at the truth between the eyes ? It’s still far much better situation than kid’s situation and I feel no remorse at all of those women. The only remorse I feel is the fact that they loose their baby on request.

4. Do you want to see an abortion? Here's one: http://www.thisismyabortion.com/
Most abortions occur before the embryo develops into a foetus. The vast majority occur in the first trimester. What you describe is extremely atypical. It happens more times than you think but there is no real difference. In the first trimester you can recognise eyes, hands, legs, etc. everything but smaller. The photo you wanted me to show is a nice jug of mixed legs, brain and organs. Showing it as a bloody soup does not make it nicer for eyes (anyway for some).

This what I’ll say now sounds maybe cruel but all abortion is cruel so it should not be far away. Why not to let to take a foetus out of a womb and let a woman to stop it’s life ? Is it a bad idea ? Why ? Not so hygienic ? Or maybe does not look like the thing that woman should do ? How bad am I to offer such an awful way ? I wonder how many woman would do it again after when they had to say “goodbye” to your foetus and squeeze it’s head (like vacuum machine or “pliers” used for this). Maybe someone would recognise herself in the foetus, maybe someone would notice that it moves, it looks for a warmth, reacts and has got the same ears like his “father”. Maybe one of those women would thing “what the ***k am I doing here”. Then all women would see what is a real abortion because now it’s like a SPA refreshing day.
.

[edit the sad parts]

Fitzi, you're condescending and misogynistic. Comparing an abortion procedure to a spa day? Really? Grow up.

How would you stop your wife from having an abortion if she wanted one, precisely? Did you know many women who already have children still have sex, and that some of these women do not want any more children? They responsibly take birth control and use other contraceptive methods, but guess what? Sometimes contraceptives fail.

I don't even know why we have entertained you up to this point. You are a troll. Please crawl back under your bridge.

[Sonic#]

2. We never disagreed that a fetus was living; that was another one of your straw arguments. We disagree about its status as regards the rights of the mother.

As for the application of the Hippocratic Oath, it refers to a pessary specifically. It may have been because, at the time the oath was written, use of a pessary for abortion was dangerous to the mother. In any case, herbal abortifacents were the legal and preferred treatments for doctors at the time, and today doctors typically take different oaths anyway. So abortion is a medical procedure, one which in practice depends on the doctor's expertise and beliefs.

Otherwise, many good doctors would disagree with you, as would good parents. That you find the logic unpalpable is irrelevant, and none of the shocking language employed in your favor will make your stance on this issue universal.

3. Your assumption that it's not an easy decision because it's a wrong one is unreasonable. There are many decisions we make that are hard but right, like the choice to take a good job that will move us away from home, or the choice to stay home to take care of our parents and sacrifice our finances. By the way, the feeling that we can make a mistake, the fear of recognizing ourselves in a kid - all these are fears related to keeping a child. Both decisions are hard, and both can be right, but the pregnant person is in the best position to decide. Such a decision can't be simplified with trite statements like "Isn't it only a foetus?" and "now it’s like a SPA refreshing day" because, as I have said, the belief in its state, the effects of pregnancy, and the decision of whether to keep a pregnancy depends on the pregnant person's beliefs, health, and present situation.

4. "It happens more times than you think?" Despite your paternalistic tone, no, it doesn't. The method you described, "dilation and extraction," happened in 0.17% of cases in 2000. (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3500603.html)

And your proposal that we extract an embryo and let a woman crush it herself is unnecessary, dangerous, and frankly depraved. Dangerous because such an extraction would have a high risk of complications to the pregnant person. Unnecessary because the embryo, being utterly dependent on its amniotic sac at that point, would not live long enough to be presented to the mother. Depraved because it tries to trump someone's ethical behavior with an improbable hypothetical question that ignores all medical sense while intending to shock.

[Fitzi]

3. Your assumption that it's not an easy decision because it's a wrong one is unreasonable. There are many decisions we make that are hard but right, like the choice to take a good job that will move us away from home, or the choice to stay home to take care of our parents and sacrifice our finances. Of course there are dozens of difficult decisions in our lives but how many relates directly to someone’s life or death ? How many relates to someone’s existence or nonexistence. This matter is above many other matters.

By the way, the feeling that we can make a mistake, the fear of recognizing ourselves in a kid - all these are fears related to keeping a child. Yes as I mentioned decision of taking a foetus for a human or not is influenced by many sometimes irrational factors.


Both decisions are hard, and both can be right, but the pregnant person is in the best position to decide. Well the foetus will never ever have any opportunity to say anything about it. So it’s not the best position for a pregnant person at all.

Such a decision can't be simplified with trite statements like "Isn't it only a foetus?" and "now it’s like a SPA refreshing day" because, as I have said, the belief in its state, the effects of pregnancy, and the decision of whether to keep a pregnancy depends on the pregnant person's beliefs, health, and present situation. Yes I would agree at some point but in different matter. If we were talking about a plastic surgery to make breasts hanging less (for example) I would agree totally but we’re talking about life and death where death is on a foetus’s side.

4. "It happens more times than you think?" Despite your paternalistic tone, no, it doesn't. The method you described, "dilation and extraction," happened in 0.17% of cases in 2000. (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3500603.html) Hard to believe as even a month ago you could see on TV incompetence of “doctors” from abortion clinics...

And your proposal that we extract an embryo and let a woman crush it herself is unnecessary, dangerous, and frankly depraved. Dangerous because such an extraction would have a high risk of complications to the pregnant person. Unnecessary because the embryo, being utterly dependent on its amniotic sac at that point, would not live long enough to be presented to the mother. Depraved because it tries to trump someone's ethical behavior with an improbable hypothetical question that ignores all medical sense while intending to shock.
My point by saying this was that the dirty job is done in a white gloves and nobody even wants to see the blood on the gloves because it seems to be too scary to try to understand. It’s like a dropping a bomb from a plane, you can see explosion but can’t see all those remains of death people killed by your bomb. Of course it would be destroying for people to see it because of the horrible nature of these things so it’s safer to look up to the sky and enjoy life.

Edit:
I was just thinking how smart is the rule, the gridline you mentioned that woman decides when foetus becomes a human. To cover our feelings we created some type of gridlines and we can create a human or fill in a rubbish bin and be justified in our own (and others according to law) eyes as doing nothing wrong.

[great girl wonder]

After reading all the nonsense in this thread I want to comment on the title and perhaps derail this a little more.
Controlling the rate at which the population grows is a very good method at protecting the future of this planet and all the people that will live on it. Birth control and abortion help regulate the number of people brought into this world. At the same time it also helps ensure that the children brought into this world are wanted children. Children that are well taken care of and even loved. Children that have many opportunities in the life ahead of them. Because unwanted children don't always have that, they can or might but largely they don't. A world of wanted children with a population that is not raging out of control makes a huge difference.

There are of course other forms of population control, like disease, war and famine. All of which are still in effect today. Birth control is by far a safer and more pleasant way of maintaining a manageable world population.

I look forward to seeing my words twisted and turned into pro-war or pro-aids or pro-starving babies in Africa.

[Aum]

My point by saying this was that the dirty job is done in a white gloves and nobody even wants to see the blood on the gloves because it seems to be too scary to try to understand. It’s like a dropping a bomb from a plane, you can see explosion but can’t see all those remains of death people killed by your bomb. Of course it would be destroying for people to see it because of the horrible nature of these things so it’s safer to look up to the sky and enjoy life.

Fetuses aren't people. This is true legally and culturally. Up until halfway through the second trimester a fetus doesn't even have a hypothalamus and has no experience of the world. Compare that to the fully grown, autonomous being it is inhabiting, who could die of complications at any time during pregnancy or delivery. How dare you compare bombing people in war to abortion?

Abortion is going to happen whether you want it to or not. Even if made criminal, there are plants that grow everywhere across North America that can facilitate the process, lickity split. You have zero control here, that's what you're not getting. What you DO have control over is the safety level of abortive procedures, which is what the white gloves are for.

You've already compared abortion to going to a day spa. Your ignorance is too abundant to have a proper conversation with you about this issue. You'd first have to brush up on how this is not an easy thing to go through, but is sometimes necessary. But of course, you're a man so you don't care about that. Typical.

I'm so tired of Christian fundamentalists. I wish you all would just form an island somewhere and go live on it, and let the modern world progress in peace.