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"nice guys" !

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"nice guys" !

Postby 08lightning » Thu Dec 20, 17:19 2012

I bring you the definitive test for "nice guys"!

(i fell down at owning a fedora, and i refuse to get rid of it so there)

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c/o http://niceguysofokc.tumblr.com/

the obliviousness and entitlement is staggering! (seriously though, you'll all sleep with me now, right?)
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby Sonic# » Thu Dec 20, 17:30 2012

I got "fucktruck," one of the more interesting Transformers.
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby 08lightning » Fri Dec 21, 7:49 2012

Sonic# wrote:I got "fucktruck," one of the more interesting Transformers.


Oh i think i've seen one of those..



ya know , that's a weird film.
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby Stedric » Fri Dec 21, 16:01 2012

I don't use "friendzone" (I've always thought it was a stupid expression) but I have neglected to correct male friends when they used it. So there, an admission of guilt for you. :)
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby Zormingash » Sat Dec 22, 5:50 2012

I have a girlfriend and some girls seem to like me. I believe myself to be a nice guy. However, I know a disturbing amount of girls who are mainly (though not exclusively) interested in "jerks" precisely BECAUSE they are jerks. Bad boys, dangerous, unconventional, mysterious. They want the drama, they think "real love means crying both of joy and sadness" (word-for-word quote from a friend of mine, I couldn't believe it).

That's not all girls, that's not most girls, but it is SOME girls. Girls can be very stupid too. Being an idiot isn't gender-restricted.

And yes, nice guys (yes, it is a thing) want to feel like there is a reward for being nice. They are not nice BECAUSE they expect a reward however, it's just the way they are. But everywhere, from birth, we're told that we should be nice. Nice guys are always the hero. Then we look around and see that in real life...it really doesn't matter. Assholes also get girls, jobs, friends, no penalty, no karma for hurting other people. It can suck to come to that realization.

Again, i'm not a bitter guy who is in love with a girl dating an asshole. I have never even personally been in that situation, ever. It just sucks for me to see my lady friends stay in crappy relationships because they like the drama, even though they could perfectly be dating any nice guy. I just don't understand it.

One could argue that if a girl wants drama, good on her if she's found something that fulfills what she is looking for. They are old enough to know what they want. But what really is frustrating is the rationalizations I hear to justify themselves (I actually have heard a couple times the "maybe I can change him" thing, which I didn't believe actually existed). If that relationship is what they're looking for and they're happy in it, why try to rationalize it ?

Also the friendzone IS a thing. A girl friend of mine (who I have no romantic interest in) is a relentless flirter because she has a deep need for attention (we're really close, she's admitted it to me, it's not like I'm pretending I can read her mind). So guys, stupidly thinking that a girl flirting with them means that she likes them (I know, how crazy a leap that is to make) end up falling in love with her and being rejected. They were not originally friends with her because they want to date her, she's just a girl in their friend group who seems to be flirting with them and they get to like her. And they do get friendzoned.
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby lillerina » Sat Dec 22, 6:35 2012

Congratulations on entirely missing the point, Zormingash.
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby Storage and Disposal » Sat Dec 22, 14:19 2012

Zormingash wrote:Being an idiot isn't gender-restricted.

Does this imply that something is gender-restricted? Because I would argue otherwise.
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby CuriousGuy » Sat Dec 22, 14:46 2012

I read a forum thread one time titled "girls, what do you like in a guy?" (not on spacefem.com). An overwelming number of women ranked "masculinity" as the number one trait they like in a guy.

I think maybe these so-called "nice guys" (the one's not having much luck with women) are confusing this attraction to masculinity with attraction to "jerkhood".
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby Stedric » Sat Dec 22, 15:36 2012

Also the friendzone IS a thing. A girl friend of mine (who I have no romantic interest in) is a relentless flirter because she has a deep need for attention (we're really close, she's admitted it to me, it's not like I'm pretending I can read her mind).


So she's internalized the sexism. Just because she "admitted it" to you doesn't make the friendzone any less of a stupid concept.

So guys, stupidly thinking that a girl flirting with them means that she likes them (I know, how crazy a leap that is to make) end up falling in love with her and being rejected. They were not originally friends with her because they want to date her, she's just a girl in their friend group who seems to be flirting with them and they get to like her. And they do get friendzoned.


I don't understand this. I have a number of female friends with whom I sometimes flirt playfully, but I understand that flirting is just a part of how adults interact with one another and that it doesn't necessarily mean anything. Men do it too. If a girl wants to be with you, she'll tell you so. If she doesn't you'll get rejected--and rejection sucks, but it's no reason to make up a whole complicated system by which the woman (and by extension all women) was purposefully trying to manipulate you.

They were not originally friends with her because they want to date her,


That's a really dumb reason to not become friends with someone, just like it's a really dumb reason to try to get to know someone. Why not just interact with her like you would any other human being that winds up being part of your social circle? Romantic/sexual interest is a strong human compulsion, but that's no excuse for anyone (man, woman, Romulan, whatever) to let it dominate their interactions with other people.
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby Zormingash » Sat Dec 22, 16:28 2012

Does this imply that something is gender-restricted? Because I would argue otherwise.


No...

So she's internalized the sexism. Just because she "admitted it" to you doesn't make the friendzone any less of a stupid concept.


What sexism ? Guys and girls both have the capacity to (and do) do that. The "friendzone" isn't restricted to one gender, and neither is wanting attention.

I don't understand this. I have a number of female friends with whom I sometimes flirt playfully, but I understand that flirting is just a part of how adults interact with one another and that it doesn't necessarily mean anything. Men do it too. If a girl wants to be with you, she'll tell you so. If she doesn't you'll get rejected--and rejection sucks, but it's no reason to make up a whole complicated system by which the woman (and by extension all women) was purposefully trying to manipulate you.


Let's put it this way: most people I know don't tell someone outright they like them, because of shyness mostly, or fear of rejection. So they test the waters, one of the ways being flirting. There is nothing wrong with thinking flirting means the person likes you, because otherwise, short of the person coming to you and saying "hey, i like you", there is no way of knowing who has feelings for who.

I completely agree that it is silly and that people should tell each other outright what they feel, no question about that. I try to as much as I can. But that's not what happens, and in the mean-time, there's flirting.

I read a forum thread one time titled "girls, what do you like in a guy?" (not on spacefem.com). An overwelming number of women ranked "masculinity" as the number one trait they like in a guy.


This might be complete bs on my part, but I do believe if that wasn't the case, alot of problems would be solved.
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby CuriousGuy » Sat Dec 22, 18:56 2012

Zormingash wrote:
This might be complete bs on my part, but I do believe if that wasn't the case, alot of problems would be solved.


If what wasn't the case? If women didn't like masculinity? How would that solve any problems?
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby Neko » Sat Dec 22, 19:53 2012

I don't know a single woman who is attracted to someone THEY would classify as a jerk. I DO know a lot of women who date men that OTHERS perceive to be complete assholes. I can't speak for everyone but I know that there's a sizeable population of people (male and female) who can't see themselves leaving someone they care about regardless how those of us outside the relationship judge their partner's character. (Also, abusive relationship pro-tip: Sometimes people are in situations where they cannot leave the relationship out of fear/coercion/guilt/etc.) I've watched a number of male AND female friends stand on the receiving end of what I would call total asshole behavior and they would feel that it's something that they deserved, something that they're willing to work through with their partner, or they don't even notice/care about it.

Notice how we judge women WAY MORE than we judge men for dating people we consider asshats? It seems an awful lot like that self-righteous entitlement to women that "nice guys" have. Hmmmm. OH, WAIT! Because it is.


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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby Stedric » Sat Dec 22, 20:22 2012

I can't speak for everyone but I know that there's a sizeable population of people (male and female) who can't see themselves leaving someone they care about regardless how those of us outside the relationship judge their partner's character. (Also, abusive relationship pro-tip: Sometimes people are in situations where they cannot leave the relationship out of fear/coercion/guilt/etc.) I've watched a number of male AND female friends stand on the receiving end of what I would call total asshole behavior and they would feel that it's something that they deserved, something that they're willing to work through with their partner, or they don't even notice/care about it.


Oh hell yeah. I've seen this so many times. The thing is, abusers are generally excellent manipulators. They can employ violence to abuse, but they are also very good at manipulating the abusee's emotions. This applies to both male and female abusers (although men are doubtlessly more likely to use violence).

I once worked with a girl who had broken up with her boyfriend six months prior to when I met her. In the months in between she had improved her life considerably compared to when they were together (got in shape, got promoted at work, starting eating better and feeling more confident). And that drove her ex CRAZY--that her life was improving while he continued being a stagnant piece of shit. So he went on a campaign of insulting her, proclaiming his love to her, and then insulting her again (telling her she would always be fat, that the only person that could ever love her was him, the usual filth). The end goal was to chip away at her self-esteem until she felt low enough about herself to take him back.

There are reasons why people end up with jerks, but Neko is right--women seem to disproportionally get criticized for it, even though they are by no means the only ones to engage in it.
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby Zormingash » Sun Dec 23, 2:29 2012

Notice how we judge women WAY MORE than we judge men for dating people we consider asshats? It seems an awful lot like that self-righteous entitlement to women that "nice guys" have. Hmmmm. OH, WAIT! Because it is.


That's just not true. I have known a lot of guys in crappy relationships, and everyone thought they were stupid for staying in them (tbf they were). "men only date bitches" is a thing, a friend of mine used to sleep around with everything that moves before settling down with a girl and being completely honest and straight-up great to her who ended up cheating on him...alot. People HAVE asked "he could have anyone, why does he date that bitch ?"

But I usually don't judge either male or female friends for their crappy relationships, strangely, usually we judge the abuser...

If what wasn't the case? If women didn't like masculinity? How would that solve any problems?


For one, "effeminate" gay men wouldn't be seen as inferior due to not being masculine, if being masculine wasn't seen as the one top biggest priority in being a man.
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby Anonguy » Sun Dec 23, 5:12 2012

I think I use friendzone differently then others...

If a women wants a romantic relationship with me but I only want to be Friends... she is in the friendzone. I will go to movies and hang out but she can not expect more, she will need to simply except that she is just a friend ie has been friendzoned.

Is that the way other people read that word?
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby Rainbow Dolphins » Sun Dec 23, 5:31 2012

^That is the generally accepted usage of the term, yes. Sometimes it's used in a way that denotes entitlement to a woman's body because so much time has been put into being her friend... as in, "how dare she friendzone me? I spent so much time and energy getting to know her and buying her things and being nice to her, she ought to go out with me" or in other words, "she ought to sleep with me," if we're going to really get into the meat of the thing.

Neko wrote:"Men are only attracted to complete BITCHES, man. They don't even notice a nice person like me! Are they blind??" -- Said no one, ever

:heart:

Anyway, I have heard "he could have anyone he wants, what is he doing with her?" but it's not usually because the woman is a bitch, it's usually because she's ugly or nasty somehow. (I'm guilty of making judgements like this myself.) So, it's again more of a value judgement on the woman rather than the man. So basically, if a man makes what we see as poor choices in dating women, we blame the women, and if a woman makes what we see as poor choices in dating men, we blame the women. I think both of these lines of thinking are distinct from the sentiment of "ze could do better," though. Saying to someone "you know, your boyfriend or girlfriend kind of treats you like shit, you don't need to settle" is a case-by-case judgement, whereas "she always goes for assholes" is a judge of character, one that has become gendered.
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby Zormingash » Sun Dec 23, 5:52 2012

"how dare she friendzone me? I spent so much time and energy getting to know her and buying her things and being nice to her, she ought to go out with me"


Said no one, ever.

No one ever said "ought to". They do say "should want to", as in "that's how I thought things worked", but in no way will a man go "yep, ive done my Mandatory Pretend Friendship Duties for X days, I think I would like that sex now !" I have known a lot of friendzoned men and women, not a single one ever acted like that. I have actually never seen that behaviour outside of its description on these boards.

Anyway, I have heard "he could have anyone he wants, what is he doing with her?" but it's not usually because the woman is a bitch, it's usually because she's ugly or nasty somehow. (I'm guilty of making judgements like this myself.) So, it's again more of a value judgement on the woman rather than the man. So basically, if a man makes what we see as poor choices in dating women, we blame the women, and if a woman makes what we see as poor choices in dating men, we blame the women. I think both of these lines of thinking are distinct from the sentiment of "ze could do better," though. Saying to someone "you know, your boyfriend or girlfriend kind of treats you like shit, you don't need to settle" is a case-by-case judgement, whereas "she always goes for assholes" is a judge of character, one that has become gendered.


I guess I can just disagree - I have known men in a chain of crappy relationships whom we told to stop getting with women who are bad for them. Not as often, but women usually do have more options than men, in my experience and according to some of my female friends.
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby Butterfly North » Sun Dec 23, 7:43 2012

^Right, me too, but I haven't known all that many women who react to seeing a hetero man in a sucky relationship by being like 'why do ALL men only like unpleasant women...' As others have already said, what I do see on a regular basis is women reacting by saying 'why is she so controlling and manipulative of him?' etc etc.

Quite honestly, I think you have to be pretty emotionally immature to come to the conclusion that because a few people of one gender are with people who are bad for them it must be that all of them love to be hurt. Almost everybody, apart from an extremely lucky few, have been happy in a relationship and then years later gone 'wait, wtf, that person was terrible.' Unless you're genuinely attributing that to you having loved being hurt by a horrible person, for you to turn around and think that of other people you notice who are in crappy relationships is just dumb. I don't think that's a plausible explanation for why people do the 'nice guy' thing, I think there's got to be something else going on there (in all likelihood it's the male entitlement thing that's already been discussed above).

Oh and also: http://niceguysofwesteros.tumblr.com/
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby Sonic# » Sun Dec 23, 9:04 2012

Zormingash wrote:No one ever said "ought to". They do say "should want to", as in "that's how I thought things worked", but in no way will a man go "yep, ive done my Mandatory Pretend Friendship Duties for X days, I think I would like that sex now !" I have known a lot of friendzoned men and women, not a single one ever acted like that. I have actually never seen that behaviour outside of its description on these boards.


The difference between "ought to" and "should want to" is very slight. I know you're trying to say that men's expectations don't come true, and as a result they're confused. That's true. Of course, it's painful to be unable to go out with someone who you want. The "nice guy" trope speaks to a particular negative response to rejection, which includes a combination of a persecution complex, binary thinking about good/bad women and women/men, and a blindness to one's own manipulative tendencies. "Should want to" also implies a vision of how the world should work - that women should like "nice guys," and that they are "nice guys," and that they are owed attention in return. In the process, they're buying into preconceptions that:
a. rejection is all about them.
b. they are better judges of the motivations all women take into relationships. ("what women really want")
b1. most women can be judged based on preconceptions, justified by the behavior of a few.
b2. ultimately, the reasons why a woman sticks with a relationship are less important than the reasons the "nice guy" thinks that relationship is bad.*
c. doing nice things should end with a reward of attention.
c1. whether or not they are owed a response, they should receive one in a fairer world.
d. they and the women they desire are in a minority.
d1. most women make stupid decisions, but a few are Good Women
d2. most men are stupid men, but a few are Good Men.
e. they are the nice guy.
e1. whether or not they are kind.

If you look at "Nice Guys of Westeros" or "Nice Guys of OKCupid," you'll see these and other preconceptions at once. These preconceptions needn't happen at once. However, combined, they speak to the sexist expectations and patterns of behavior which hurt men and women: that heterosexual attraction matters most, men and women behave according to a binary, men's expectations and desires matter more in a relationship, niceness or aggressiveness alone are sufficient for success in a relationship, and men seek sex and women control it.

*even if the relationship is bad, if you start a discussion or intervention by dismissing the other person's motivations, you're going to have a cold reception.
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby Zormingash » Sun Dec 23, 10:20 2012

Quite honestly, I think you have to be pretty emotionally immature to come to the conclusion that because a few people of one gender are with people who are bad for them it must be that all of them love to be hurt.


I completely agree. But I don't think all, or even most, "nice guys" claim that.

in all likelihood it's the male entitlement thing that's already been discussed above


This expression kind of makes me cringe, it's a bit of an all-applying buzzword that i see thrown around. I think things are more complicated than that and it is slightly insulting to be told "you say you've been friendzoned ? You're sexist and a horrible person because you think you're entitled to sex."

What I dislike is leaps of logic like these, or those below :

a. rejection is all about them.
b. they are better judges of the motivations all women take into relationships. ("what women really want")
b1. most women can be judged based on preconceptions, justified by the behavior of a few.
b2. ultimately, the reasons why a woman sticks with a relationship are less important than the reasons the "nice guy" thinks that relationship is bad.*
c. doing nice things should end with a reward of attention.
c1. whether or not they are owed a response, they should receive one in a fairer world.
d. they and the women they desire are in a minority.
d1. most women make stupid decisions, but a few are Good Women
d2. most men are stupid men, but a few are Good Men.
e. they are the nice guy.
e1. whether or not they are kind


I just disagree with that assertion that you can decide what other people think based on one thing about them. What I especially dislike is the claim to know what they think better than they do themselves. As in "you're an asshole, you don't think so but trust me I know you better than you do".


Those assertions might all be true, I don't know, but it's a bit harsh to decide what a person thinks.

I also agree that some guy likely ARE exactly like that. I have just never met any.

I'm sorry if I seem rude, I'm not trying to be :)
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby CuriousGuy » Sun Dec 23, 10:38 2012

Zormingash wrote:For one, "effeminate" gay men wouldn't be seen as inferior due to not being masculine, if being masculine wasn't seen as the one top biggest priority in being a man.


There's a difference between a woman being attracted to masculinity and masculinity being seen as the one top biggest priority in being a man. The former is simply a desire (and most likely biological) whereas the latter is a value judgement or attitude or belief. I don't think we can fault someone for their biologically predispositions to liking X for trait Y.

Also to all: I think we have to be careful here in distinguishing between what we know about "nice guys" and how we're interpreting what's going on in their minds based on the things they say and do. I don't think we can judge based on the subtleties of the exact words they use. "Why does she go out with such a jerk" need not necessarily imply blaming her, or self-righteous entitlement (it might, but we don't know that).

I used to be one these "nice guys" myself. I would get frustrated every time some girl I was trying to impress would reject me and then the next day jump into the arms of some guy whom she had told me previous was "such a jerk". This was frustration, not self-righteous entitlement or blaming her. (it's hard to imagine I was self-righteous considering my self-esteem at the time was quite low). I don't ever remember being angry at the women who rejected me, just confused and frustrated at what I had been taught women wanted. I was taught that women wanted a kind, gentle, sensitive guy and to find all my expectations constantly being thwarted made me very frustrated and confused over what I had been taught. Of course, since then I have come to realize I was probably misinterpreting what I had been taught, but that's what I was thinking at the time.

Anyway, I forgot to mention: I failed the test at "are women obligated to do anything". I had to answer "yes" because, technically, we're all obligated to be decent, moral human beings (men and women). I realize that's probably not what they meant (I'm guessing they meant "are women obligated to do anything that men aren't obligated to do") but I read things very technically and I respond to that reading. :D
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby Butterfly North » Sun Dec 23, 12:40 2012

Zormingash wrote:
Quite honestly, I think you have to be pretty emotionally immature to come to the conclusion that because a few people of one gender are with people who are bad for them it must be that all of them love to be hurt.


I completely agree. But I don't think all, or even most, "nice guys" claim that.


The definition of 'nice guy' as used in this context, i.e. the definition of nice guy that we are discussing in this thread, involves a guy who complains that women won't get with him because all women prefer to be in relationships with horrible men who are bad with them. So erm... yeah, 'nice guys' claim that. That's the point.
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby Neko » Sun Dec 23, 15:50 2012

Butterfly North wrote:
Zormingash wrote:
Quite honestly, I think you have to be pretty emotionally immature to come to the conclusion that because a few people of one gender are with people who are bad for them it must be that all of them love to be hurt.


I completely agree. But I don't think all, or even most, "nice guys" claim that.


The definition of 'nice guy' as used in this context, i.e. the definition of nice guy that we are discussing in this thread, involves a guy who complains that women won't get with him because all women prefer to be in relationships with horrible men who are bad with them. So erm... yeah, 'nice guys' claim that. That's the point.

This ^^^^ is what needs to be taken home.

There's a difference between a man who you would call nice and a Nice Guy™. We had a thread ages ago about a pretty extreme example of a Nice Guy but he has since cleaned up the insane shit he wrote on his website. I do remember an update before the site changed hands to another anonymous person on the internet, where he said that he was finally happy dating a Japanese girl because they're more subservient. I'm only mildly paraphrasing, the subservience point was made loud and clear using that word several times, subservient. Now the site just bitches about women in general and women the author can't stand. It hasn't been updated in a year but the forum is... something.
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby Anonguy » Tue Dec 25, 0:34 2012

Thinking about it, I have never asked a women out, I have literally hidden from women so I would not have to turn them down however.
I have been called a manipulative jerk before by a "nice guy" who caught on to my methods of picking up women and did not approve.
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Re: "nice guys" !

Postby lykin005 » Mon Dec 31, 13:10 2012

Hey, I've been gone awhile. Wanted to reflect for awhile and let things calm down seeing as how I was sort of disliked here.

To Lillerina: What then was the point from your perspective?

To Stedric: I disagree about flirting. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/flirting?s=t Here flirting is defined as something done with the intent of pursuing either romance or a mere encounter without committing to anything. Playing with the idea. It's not just something you do. You may treat it that way and that's fine but to claim that as a universal truth is incorrect. Your claim that men do it too may apply to you and many others but not to all. I don't flirt with women unless I've decided I'd like to date them, even then I don't do it often or even well.

As for women telling men they like them. Some perhaps, and I applaud that, but not all. Many women feel as if it is "unbecoming", "unladylike", etc to be so "forward." Some are merely too shy or afraid of rejection. (By the way none of this is restricted to women.) My brother once tried to tell this girl he liked about his feelings and she rejected him because they were such good friends. Or as she put it like brother and sister. In my experience it's common for people to think that being friends for too long precludes a romance starting later on. Which is foolish and pointlessly limiting on yourself.

So it's unreasonable to feel really hurt and rejected after allowing yourself to be vulnerable and admit attraction or interest in someone romantically and as a result cease being friends with that person?

To Neko: What are some trait's one might enjoy while others would see as a trait an asshole would posses? I'm genuinely unsure. The way I define an asshole or otherwise (and more pertinent to this particular discussion) someone who I would be surprised to hear someone was willingly dating (Notice how I didn't say instead of a nice guy. One doesn't NEED to date anyone they merely shouldn't date an asshole seeing as that is bad for them.) is as a person who consistently treats others and the person with whom they are in a romance with indecency, disrespect, and discourteousness.

As for abusive relationship's. I wouldn't say they "can't" leave the relationship. That implies powerlessness or that there is no hope. It's difficult, scary, and requires fortitude but there is always hope and a way out of an abusive relationship and anyone can find the strength from within to do something to help their situation improve.

In regards to judging men's relationships. I would say the stereotype is actually that "All men date only hot, stupid, slutty bitches." I've consoled some of my girl friends who have said that or similar things. Go on Meetme. TM, make some female friends and watch your feed flood with comment's of a similar nature.

To Rainbow Dolphins: What makes you say that a "nice guy" expects sex and not merely a romance which may or may not include sex? Because that seems like a biased judgement to me. Personally I would be willing to date someone (Yes gender neutral someone, in my time of reflection since my leaving I have... become? pansexual.) who is not interested in sex because a relationship with love, trust, and emotional and intellectual intimacy means far more to me than sex. Sex could be a part of such a relationship. Indeed I believe that such a relationship might lead someone to change their mind on the issue due to the inner healing and comfort from such a relationship.

To CuriousGuy: What evidence is there that biology decides what one is attracted to and further what force is stopping you from expanding your understanding of what is attractive. I'm naturally attracted to women but I have recently begun to see some men as attractive as a direct result of me deciding that the person is more important than the gender.

To Zormingash: I just wanted to say I'm not ignoring your posts but I generally agree with what your saying and so don't have much interesting to add when it comes to your posts.
"Bravery is not a function of firepower." JC Denton.

“I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or a prostitute…”
–Rebecca West

If you can't observe something directly, observe what it affects.
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