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When feminism is hate

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When feminism is hate

Postby Anonguy » Sat Apr 20, 11:47 2013

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... NTCMP=SRCH


When we cut right to the point of it, I don't want my feminism confused with this feminism. I have more in common with the MRA's then this garbage.
However twitter #Radfem2013 is a great place to go look at the crazy in its nature environment.

#radfem2013 BC I will stand up for women, first and last and always. And transwomen are men http://pretendbians.com/2013/03/31/dea


Because women are coerced into laying down whilst birthing for the ease of male doctors #radfem2013

....Yah damn privileged doctors.
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby great girl wonder » Sat Apr 20, 13:14 2013

Anonguy if you are concerned with childbirth and how it has changed since male doctors have taken over delivery from female midwives I suggest the movie The Business of Being Born.

There are many areas within feminism that take a special interest in birth, jobs, sex, money, violence, breastfeeding, homeschooling etc. Those may not interest you but they tend to be real issues for many women. Giving birth on your back is not comfortable for many women and when you consider that doctors often have people holding the woman's legs in place to mimic the more natural cow pose maybe the way deliveries occur is biased toward the doctor and not the patient.

Transgender is a complicated issue in so many ways. Some women feel that because a transwoman had the benefit of a male childhood they do not fully understand the issues of ciswomen. Most feminists can agree that transwomen face as many and often more issues than ciswoman as adults.

Also as an aside most people that become doctors come from a rather privileged socioeconomic status.
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby Storage and Disposal » Sat Apr 20, 14:07 2013

It seems some lesbians are shamed because they don't want to date a woman with a penis and this is a serious issue, but to report profiles because they're listed as being lesbians when they were born male sounds ridiculous. If this is the only reason they're being reported, then that's bullshit.

I'm not informed enough on the birth issue, but if a mother wants to give birth in a certain way that's more comfortable to her and safe, doctors should accommodate.
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby Anonguy » Sat Apr 20, 15:23 2013

Storage and Disposal wrote:It seems some lesbians are shamed because they don't want to date a woman with a penis and this is a serious issue, but to report profiles because they're listed as being lesbians when they were born male sounds ridiculous. If this is the only reason they're being reported, then that's bullshit.

Not wanting to date someone who used to be a man is all well and good and to each there own..... but this is Transphobia and hate.
#radfem2013 bc I can't believe the amount of time I've devoted to appeasing the feelings of queer theorists and trans activists. No more!
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Lil' RadFem Lil' RadFem ‏@LilRadFem 11 Apr

#radfem2013 bc reading about the 'cotton ceiling' made me realize transwomen are men: predatory men who demand access to women's bodies.

I am so happy to see so many other feminist (and MRA's?) coming out and supporting the Trans community here.
For example
I am a #feminist, which means I believe women are people. Trans women are women. #radfem2013 are hateful bigots & a disgrace to feminism.



Storage and Disposal wrote:I'm not informed enough on the birth issue, but if a mother wants to give birth in a certain way that's more comfortable to her and safe, doctors should accommodate.

You can give birth with dolphins if you so chose... .
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby rowan » Sat Apr 20, 15:58 2013

There have been some advances in childbirth in recent (read: last 10) years, but for a very long time it was quite clinical, and still is in many locations. I'm lucky to be in a location where there are some good birthing centers, so I was able to choose one of those instead of my closest hospital which is more in line with the "all women give birth on their back suck it up" model. Many women do not have that choice, either through health insurance, or location.
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby cwbyrvr » Sun Apr 21, 10:43 2013

Storage and Disposal wrote:It seems some lesbians are shamed because they don't want to date a woman with a penis and this is a serious issue, but to report profiles because they're listed as being lesbians when they were born male sounds ridiculous. If this is the only reason they're being reported, then that's bullshit.

Reporting their profiles period is bullshit. I honestly can't think of a single valid reason they're doing this. It's just pure hate. If you don't want date them, then don't. Period.
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby tomokun » Sun Apr 21, 13:02 2013

*nods* I certainly have my differences with the trans community (I believe that they should disclose their situation before taking on a romantic or sexual partner, because the other partner should have the option to change their mind based on... the truth); however at the end of the day, they ARE people and shouldn't be excluded any more than any other gender.

This actually ties into my MRA's VS Feminists post... this sort of feminism (which is not the sort that I've encountered in this board at all), IS why I had stayed away from an in-depth look at feminism before now. In the past I had been rebuffed and "exorcised" when I had posed questions or comments in the way that I have done here - to a much different effect I must add.

I honestly think that radical feminism (as it is so often characterized) is needlessly divisive and hateful. I wonder though, are radical feminists merely more vocal and news worthy, or are they the majority? I certainly hope for the former, and wonder what feminists and equalists can do to marginalize that group should that be the case.
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby monk » Sun Apr 21, 20:09 2013

tomokun wrote:*nods* I certainly have my differences with the trans community (I believe that they should disclose their situation before taking on a romantic or sexual partner, because the other partner should have the option to change their mind based on... the truth);
At what point do they disclose the truth? When they're introduceded? right before intercourse? before any sexual contact (like petting or kissing)? If they are post op trans and you can't tell without an xray, do they still need to disclose? This situation is too variable for a hard and fast rule, it needs to be case by case.

I wonder though, are radical feminists merely more vocal and news worthy, or are they the majority? I certainly hope for the former, and wonder what feminists and equalists can do to marginalize that group should that be the case.
I can answer this, it's the former, the radicals are a very vocal minority. The real problem is the very large group who shy away from being activist because of the minority even though they agree 95% of the moderate feminist agenda (equal pay, pro-choicce) issues. But here's the thing about the vocal radicals, they're necessary. Why? because they establish a starting point for the negotiation when we actually do sit down and discuss issues and make policy. It's like buying used car, you don't offer what they're ask or what it's worth, your opening bid should be completely unreasonable.
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby Anonguy » Mon Apr 22, 0:40 2013

monk wrote: they're necessary. Why? because they establish a starting point for the negotiation when we actually do sit down and discuss issues and make policy. It's like buying used car, you don't offer what they're ask or what it's worth, your opening bid should be completely unreasonable.

.... and so what feminism only really wants 50% of the male population to be killed off or selectively breed out as opposed to the 90% those same feminists are seeking?
There is firm negotiation and then there is standing outside throwing shit at a lamp post... You don't bargain with them so much as you lock the door and call the cops to have them removed from the car lot.
Hate will not help you get what you want... hate is never necessary
Who here wants to go tell the trans community that this hate is necessary?

This is not helping you get a good deal on that used car... this is that outstanding dept that has sunk your credit rating. A negative public perception HURTS US.
Even the MRA's know this....
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Tipping Point On Radfem Transphobia?
The British Transphobic Feminist Troika unleashed their hate speech upon the world last week probably thinking they would get pushback from the trans community they and their acolytes could spin and demonize them with until it quickly blow over.

Not this time.

This time it isn't just our British trans cousins who are pissed off about the transphobic scribblings. They got reinforcements from various trans bloggers around the world and pushback from the surprising direction of feminists, allies and other justice minded folks tired of the radfem transphobia making them, their nation and their movement look bad.

All I can say is thanks and what took y'all so long?

It also leads me to ask this question concerning the international kerfluffle that has been stirred up on the Net by the Transphobic Feminist Troika. Is this a tipping point sign that like the trans community, feminists are also tired of the transhate speech that has been said in their names for over 40 years?

We transpeeps can only hope that's exactly what is happening, but only time will tell in that regard. We still have radfems on this side of the Pond who revel in spouting hate speech on a regular basis

Are we going to see this year and from now on serious efforts to root out the cancer of transphobia in feminism, or is feminism just going to go back to business as usual, decry it in private and allow the radical feminists around the world to continue pushing trans hatred in their name?

Tomokun that is how you will know when they are the minority.... because feminists will get off there ass and join in smacking them down when they start saying hateful things. As opposed to just shrugging off our Brothers and Sisters who need help and support.
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby monk » Mon Apr 22, 7:56 2013

Anonguy wrote:
monk wrote: they're necessary. Why? because they establish a starting point for the negotiation when we actually do sit down and discuss issues and make policy. It's like buying used car, you don't offer what they're ask or what it's worth, your opening bid should be completely unreasonable.

.... and so what feminism only really wants 50% of the male population to be killed off or selectively breed out as opposed to the 90% those same feminists are seeking?
There is firm negotiation and then there is standing outside throwing shit at a lamp post... You don't bargain with them so much as you lock the door and call the cops to have them removed from the car lot.
Hate will not help you get what you want... hate is never necessary
but if you start censoring free speech you're ruining a future progressive movement that hasn't even been debated yet. As for the selective male population issue, how about instead we just let every single woman be the one who decides what is done or not done to her body at all times with no governmental interference? <--you see what I did there? I took an outrageous starting bid and made what actually should be done seem like a big concession.

Who here wants to go tell the trans community that this hate is necessary?/
No one of course.


sorry for the double post
Last edited by monk on Wed Apr 24, 17:20 2013, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby great girl wonder » Mon Apr 22, 23:46 2013

Who is even saying hate is necessary?

There are so many straw people in this thread and none of them dance or sing with me on the yellow brick road.

People are not perfect. Some feminists make mistakes or exclude people. At its foundation feminism is about creating a more equal society for all. Setting up guidelines for how to treat and include the trans community is still in progress in many areas of life. If you think one MRA is doing a great job with the trans community then break down exactly what that is and show it to every other organization so they can also be more inclusive but right now I'm not seeing it that way. Honestly I can't think of a single group political, religious, social or community that has a great frame of how to better include and reach out to the trans community effectively and I live in San Francisco. Transgender issues are complex and because it is a fairly small population they are often overlooked for a bigger ticket group not because they are less respected but because people have to make decisions for the greater good as they see it at the time.

I will never know what it is like to internalize being raised in a gendered society as a male and then becoming a female. Just like a transwoman won't be able to understand what it was like to be born and raised cis. Those experiences are different and impact women differently. I want to know more about life of transgendered people and I know excluding them won't make that happen but I can totally understand wanting groups for ciswomen only.
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby tomokun » Tue Apr 23, 10:16 2013

tomokun wrote:
*nods* I certainly have my differences with the trans community (I believe that they should disclose their situation before taking on a romantic or sexual partner, because the other partner should have the option to change their mind based on... the truth);

At what point do they disclose the truth? When they're introduceded? right before intercourse? before any sexual contact (like petting or kissing)? If they are post op trans and you can't tell without an xray, do they still need to disclose? This situation is too variable for a hard and fast rule, it needs to be case by case.


I had some lengthy discussions with members of the trans community about this, and they certainly have some real concerns that need to be taken into consideration, but I have a pretty staunch view on honesty. I'm not sure there are many instances where I would EVER advocate dishonesty, but this pretty much sums up my attitudes in that regard: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-path-of-honesty

Taking into account that revealing their situation can be dangerous, I see nothing wrong with a trans person keeping their situation private before any romantic or sexual entanglements are created. Arguably, they wouldn't want to sleep with someone who might be dangerous, but bigotry like that is generally easy to spot, but even if it weren't, the real question is when is it ok to sleep with someone whom would not sleep with you if they knew the truth? It's a difficult issue, because on the one hand there is a reasonable right to privacy, but on the other hand there is a reasonable right for disclosure prior to a sexual or intimate relationship. Some trans argue that no such right exists, because it is not a safety issue, but I disagree.

As for whether radical fems are in the minority or the majority - maybe it is as you folks have said... and maybe it isn't. That's like asking, "are most atheists smug a-holes, or is it only the vocal majority"? It's an almost impossible question to answer really, although I think Anonguy's response relies on the least amount of assertion.

At the end of the day though, I think that feminists and MRA's - the non-radicals that is - are likely both necessary. We need advocates on both sides while we continue to perpetuate the idea that there are two and three sides to these issues. We need as many advocates as there are issues, but these advocates need to be conscientious about the often divisive nature of these issues.

And everyone needs to marginalize the radicals, because showing them support merely endorses their radical ideas.
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby Rainbow Dolphins » Tue Apr 23, 11:33 2013

^I don't think it's a good idea to stereotype the majority of *any* group, whether it be "most feminists are man-haters," "most athiests are smug," or "most lesbians don't shave their legs." Let's just assume those things are all not true and judge on a case-by-case basis, without making preconceived judgements, yes?

Also, I don't necessarily share my life fucking story with someone before I get in bed with them, I don't think it's reasonable to ask trans people to do so.
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby Hannah30 » Thu Apr 25, 22:39 2013

I have a really hard time understanding trans people - I really feel like I should be open to dating them, but on a gut level it just doesn't work for me. Are there books you recommend for trying to get an understanding of the human side of the issues?
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby Aum » Fri Apr 26, 2:32 2013

The whole "well look at what THESE feminists are doing" angle is overdone. You might as well replace "feminists" with "human beings" and you might begin to understand why the whole straw feminist thing gets so old.

There's plenty of hate to go around in this world. I'm sure there are feminists out there who are prone to feelings of hatred just as there are those who are progressive and hopeful. All those qualities might even in one person. It takes all kinds.
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby tomokun » Fri Apr 26, 12:32 2013

I get what you're saying RD, and I pretty much agree, everyone should be treated as a unique case.

That being said however, it really is an unrealistic expectation. People make generalizations alot, and and EVERYONE makes these types of generalizations. If you say that you do not have any preconceived notions in regards to people who are identified with a different group, you may try to act as if you don't, but that's because you put effort into treating an individual individually.

But that doesn't mean that you don't create these stereotypes yourself, unless you aren't human.

I also agree that trans people shouldn't have to share their "life-fucking story", but is it unreasonable to expect disclosure before starting or pursuing an intimate relationship? Compare it to being a single-parent who is dating. There is nothing wrong with being a single parent, but for some people, dating someone with a child is not something they wish to do. There is nothing wrong with only wanting to date single, non-parents. Isn't it not only responsible but in that parent's best interest to disclose that they have a child before pursuing an intimate relationship? Wouldn't you want to get the deal-breakers over with as fast as possible?

And single parents are common, that is a very "normal" thing to be. Why is being Trans any different than being a parent?

That's the other thing - it's a personal safety issue. Because intimate relationships have strong emotions attached to them, being intimate and having someone find out after the fact can lead to strong, violent responses. This is not the trans person's fault, but it's a risk, so why risk that situation when disclosure can resolve the situation before it ever happens?

I'll stop commenting on this now though, but if another thread were opened up I'd certainly continue, it's an interesting subject.

As for Aum's comment - I think its important to know what a group's overall message is, and what is actually being communicated, as well as how the group is received by those that hear their message. Is it really a straw man to say that these feminists are what people think about when they think of feminism? What about groups like the Westboro Baptist Church, or the KKK? What if they claimed their message was being coopted by "hateful radicals", and that "true Scottsman" (note the fallacy) believed...whatever.

Which is why I think its important for groups to marginalize their radicals, in order to maintain the integrity of the message and reputation they wish to cultivate.
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby Aum » Sat Apr 27, 1:24 2013

tomokun wrote:As for Aum's comment - I think its important to know what a group's overall message is, and what is actually being communicated, as well as how the group is received by those that hear their message. Is it really a straw man to say that these feminists are what people think about when they think of feminism? What about groups like the Westboro Baptist Church, or the KKK? What if they claimed their message was being coopted by "hateful radicals", and that "true Scottsman" (note the fallacy) believed...whatever.

Which is why I think its important for groups to marginalize their radicals, in order to maintain the integrity of the message and reputation they wish to cultivate.


Are you fucking for real? The KKK or Westboro Baptist Church ARE RADICALS. You can't claim you've been hijacked by radicals when you ARE ONE.

What people think about feminism has a lot to do with how straw feminists are created in the media. I can't count the number of times that the popular mainstream has portrayed feminists as men hating bitches. Let alone the fact that feminists are not just women.

An angry feminist is not a radical. I don't marginalize radical feminism either. I think it has its place. My problem is when people take a radical feminist and say "this is all of feminism". Does it not occur to people like you that feminism is such such a huge, broad topic with many avenues and perspectives?

Stop trying to make me fucking responsible for everything that other feminists do. It's not my problem. They are free humans who can do what they want. I don't control them and they don't control me. The only integrity I wish to maintain is that feminism isn't some secret society where we are all in agreement, and banded together under one common message. Feminists disagree all the time.

Just take a human perspective on it. Feminists are humans, therefore they are diverse. This is not a difficult concept.
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby Sonic# » Sat Apr 27, 8:06 2013


That's the other thing - it's a personal safety issue. Because intimate relationships have strong emotions attached to them, being intimate and having someone find out after the fact can lead to strong, violent responses. This is not the trans person's fault, but it's a risk, so why risk that situation when disclosure can resolve the situation before it ever happens?


It seems unwise to get into the habit of telling trans people how best to confront the risks that they are all too aware of. You gloss over the risks that are already there when someone confides their status immediately, which may be lessened by knowing a person a little better.

There's also bigger issues involving the stigmatization of trans people, especially the expectation that a trans status be revealed immediately and the belief that failure to disclose constitutes fraud. The very standard or expectation you're setting out happens to be the same standard in the defense called "trans panic," which makes the mere discovery of one's trans status into the trigger of a crime of passion. I'm not exactly sure what the standards should be, but I'd be careful about appropriating or assuming too much.
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby monk » Sat Apr 27, 11:31 2013

tomokun wrote:Wouldn't you want to get the deal-breakers over with as fast as possible?

There are too many of those to drop on a first date. Not to mention that a deal breaker for you is not going to be universal.
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby Hannah30 » Mon Apr 29, 9:13 2013

monk wrote:
tomokun wrote:Wouldn't you want to get the deal-breakers over with as fast as possible?

There are too many of those to drop on a first date. Not to mention that a deal breaker for you is not going to be universal.


I think internet dating has really increased the expectation that people will get their deal breakers over with before they even meet - people can learn a lot on line, and only meet people who pass their criteria. That's really changed the game.
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby tomokun » Wed May 1, 15:49 2013

Wow, quite a HEATED response from Aum, which I'll get to in a second.

Monk, I do agree that no one is going to throw all of their dirty laundry out there on the first date, but the inherent objection to disclosure in the discussion I've had with trans is a fear of reprisal for BEING trans. That seems to indicate an awareness of a deal-breaker that they might expect a non-trans potential partner to have. To take the online-dating example, if a person has dwarfism, they would likely disclose that ahead of time rather than "surprise" their blind-date with that fact. Not because they have anything to be ashamed of, but because it would not be unexpected for their date to react negatively to the situation.

In the same way, being aware that being trans is not a popular trait in a sex partner for a non-trans person SEEMS to make disclosure a reasonable idea. It's objectively different from having liposuction, or a tummy tuck, and it's outside of the norm enough that culturally we haven't developed any etiquette around it. To put it another way, if you were to line-up 100 non-trans people in a room and were to ask them if they would like to know if their partner was trans before becoming intimate with them... how many would you reasonably guess would say yes? Unless the answer is in the 50% range, being trans is not the same as your average deal-breaker. It isn't worse mind you, but the onus for finding out doesn't belong on the ignorant party.

And Sonic - absolutely not I don't gloss over them - at least not in my conversations with trans folk. As I believe I said (too lazy to look back, and apologies if I didn't make this clear), but most of my discussion revolved around issues like 1 night stands, which have the potential to evolve into long-term relationships. I won't for a second say that their concerns for personal safety come secondary, but when the counter point is, "I don't see why I have to disclose ever, why should anyone care" - that seems to be a fairly inconsiderate position to take as well. Sex should be taken seriously, and being casual to the point of being inconsiderate of how a potential partner might react to discovering they have become intimate with someone they would have ordinarily never become intimate with... that seems wrong. I don't want to be unfair to trans people, but that doesn't mean there isn't a middle ground. Disclosure prior to intimacy (sex or foreplay) seems reasonable.

They can keep their privacy, but when you're going to bring someone into your bedroom, I think you have a responsibility not to do it under false pretenses. And yes, if someone thinks you are a cis man or woman, and you are not, that is a false pretense, and it is disingenuous to say otherwise. Maybe it's not important to some straight people, and maybe that can change when we start acknowledging that gender is a spectrum and not a binary concept, but we have to deal with today. I hold myself to this standard because honesty to me is a fundamental cornerstone for civilized society.

And Aum...

The KKK and Westboro Baptist Church ARE radicals... and many would argue that feminism is also a radical group because feminists seek to make fundamental changes to society.

"The term "radical" was applied to the groups because they sought to make fundamental (hence "radical") changes in institutions and remove from political life persons and institutions that threatened their values or economic interests."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_right

So yes.... I'm for "fucking" real.

Your post is the classic example of the "no-true scottsman" fallacy, and it also completely ignores most of my main points.

1) Public perception by NON-feminists OF so-called "straw feminists" is that your "straw feminists" ARE feminists. Public perception is that they represent YOU and YOUR views. Right or wrong, if that's what their perception is, it is important for feminists who are concerned with actually sending a message to realize that fact. Why? Because their perceptions is a part of your reputation, and if you care about your message, you care not only about delivering that message, but you also care about how that message is assimilated to the people you are communicating it to.

2) "People like me." I love this line... its a classic tell of someone who is so prejudiced against anyone outside of their group that they have already made many apriori assumptions about who that person is because that person is not a part of their group. "People like me" get excluded from conversations and their thoughts and opinions are marginalized - not because of the content of those ideas but because "people like me" bother question what you assert is fact.

3) "I can't count the number of times that the popular mainstream has portrayed feminists as men hating bitches. Let alone the fact that feminists are not just women." I'm sure feminists have been portrayed as man hating bitches many times - the whole point of this thread I think was to point out WHY. As someone who partially identifies with atheism, I can relate a similar dissatisfaction with how atheists are portrayed by the mainstream media. However, because I identify as part of that group, I have to also take responsibility for MY part in how the group I belong to is perceived. When you identify as part of a group, you act as a representative for that group, whether you want to be or not. The MRA's seem to understand this, which is why in spite of all the negative press that feminists get, MRA's get noticeably less. Contrary to popular belief, negative press IS bad.

4) "Stop trying to make me fucking responsible for everything that other feminists do. It's not my problem. They are free humans who can do what they want. I don't control them and they don't control me. The only integrity I wish to maintain is that feminism isn't some secret society where we are all in agreement, and banded together under one common message. Feminists disagree all the time."
By all means, the feminist message is totally not your problem, even though you self-identify as a feminist. Why should how a group you claim membership to agree on anything (including core issues), or be unified in a common goal. Oh wait. You do care. You care whether or not people think feminism is a secret society - and so you care about the overall message. No one (including me) is saying that all feminists must agree 100% of the time. But, if you are a part of the club, and someone uses your club name to endorse ideas that you don't agree with and that you feel perverts the very nature of the club you belong to, you lose the right to complain about the media's portrayal of your group. After all, if there was an atheist out there saying that we should kill all muslim babies, in order to make sure the atheist message didn't become synonymous with baby-killing, atheists would have to speak out. This is not unreasonable, so I don't understand why you are so passionate about it if you don't care about the message or feminism.

5) My problem is when people take a radical feminist and say, "this is all of feminism". - I have to point this out here. I did not say that. I didn't even imply it. I'm sure if I did I would have gotten a ton of angry responses from everyone on this forum. What I said was, "I honestly think that radical feminism (as it is so often characterized) is needlessly divisive and hateful. I wonder though, are radical feminists merely more vocal and news worthy, or are they the majority? I certainly hope for the former, and wonder what feminists and equalists can do to marginalize that group should that be the case."

I specified radical feminism, and I asked a question about which group was in the majority, later agreeing that the majority is likely the non-radicals. Yet somehow, "people like me" evidently think that all feminists are radicals.
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby Aum » Wed May 1, 16:09 2013

tomokun wrote:The KKK and Westboro Baptist Church ARE radicals... and many would argue that feminism is also a radical group because feminists seek to make fundamental changes to society.


I'm not going to argue with you over semantics. You're welcome to believe that all of feminism is radical if you choose. I can't argue against a belief, because it does not rely on logic. Feminism has radical branches, but as a holistic philosophy it is not radical, evidenced by the fact that most universities have feminist studies. Do they have KKK studies?

Honestly, it's not only disingenuous but ignorant to compare the academia of feminism to radical hate groups. The fact that you keep defending your comparison is only embarrassing for you and no one else.

tomokun wrote:So yes.... I'm for "fucking" real.


Oh, I'm aware that your agenda here is quite real.

tomokun wrote:1) Public perception by NON-feminists OF so-called "straw feminists" is that your "straw feminists" ARE feminists. Public perception is that they represent YOU and YOUR views. Right or wrong, if that's what their perception is, it is important for feminists who are concerned with actually sending a message to realize that fact. Why? Because their perceptions is a part of your reputation, and if you care about your message, you care not only about delivering that message, but you also care about how that message is assimilated to the people you are communicating it to.


Will address this further down.

tomokun wrote:2) "People like me." I love this line... its a classic tell of someone who is so prejudiced against anyone outside of their group that they have already made many apriori assumptions about who that person is because that person is not a part of their group. "People like me" get excluded from conversations and their thoughts and opinions are marginalized - not because of the content of those ideas but because "people like me" bother question what you assert is fact.


The content of your ideas is easily debunked and has been done so innumerable times. I'm not excluding you, but simply pointing out that your fallacies have been repeated ad nauseum before, and, similarly, refuse to be debunked because your standpoint is not to contribute to feminism but rather to knock it down.

tomokun wrote:I'm sure feminists have been portrayed as man hating bitches many times - the whole point of this thread I think was to point out WHY.

[irrelevancies excised]

When you identify as part of a group, you act as a representative for that group, whether you want to be or not. The MRA's seem to understand this, which is why in spite of all the negative press that feminists get, MRA's get noticeably less. Contrary to popular belief, negative press IS bad.


The reason why is that the patriarchal model has a vested interest in legitimately avoiding the grievances of feminism, which is why feminism is activism. You understand why there is a vested interest in defaming atheists, yes? Is the notion that atheism is immoral, unethical, and leading to the degeneration of society correct? Obviously not. So if you can see the injustice there then why can you not see the injustice done to feminism in the mainstream?

My problem is that you are just a little bit too ambiguous in how you discuss feminism's pitfalls, as though the mainstream's critique is filled with correctness that we feminists are just refusing to look at.

tomokun wrote:But, if you are a part of the club, and someone uses your club name to endorse ideas that you don't agree with and that you feel perverts the very nature of the club you belong to, you lose the right to complain about the media's portrayal of your group. After all, if there was an atheist out there saying that we should kill all muslim babies, in order to make sure the atheist message didn't become synonymous with baby-killing, atheists would have to speak out. This is not unreasonable, so I don't understand why you are so passionate about it if you don't care about the message or feminism.


Excuse me but who are you to create all these fallacious rules to govern my behaviour? You're drawing a lot of assumptions and conclusions based on scant evidence of my behaviour. Not to mention, my RL behaviour is NONE of your fucking business. If you want to troll me with personal attacks then you're in the wrong forum.

I contribute to feminism in my own way, and take responsibility in my day to day life. It's not my job to be your personal army and call out every false critique of feminism I see in the media. My own personal life is my activism. The way I treat other human beings is my activism.

You can't just set the bar to whatever you like and then when someone else doesn't jump that high, you get to accuse them of not taking responsibility. That's not reality, and it's obnoxious.

tomokun wrote:I honestly think that radical feminism (as it is so often characterized) is needlessly divisive and hateful. I wonder though, are radical feminists merely more vocal and news worthy, or are they the majority? I certainly hope for the former, and wonder what feminists and equalists can do to marginalize that group should that be the case."[/i]


I think you're only here to typecast feminism based on your preconceptions, while couching it in the appearance of intellectual curiosity. I don't find your questions worthy of investigation, since they are clearly so loaded.

tomokun wrote:I specified radical feminism, and I asked a question about which group was in the majority, later agreeing that the majority is likely the non-radicals. Yet somehow, "people like me" evidently think that all feminists are radicals.


I don't know, you'll have to ask a radical feminist.
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby Tookie » Thu May 2, 12:17 2013

Relevant. The people who hate/are afraid of feminism will continue hating it/fearing it no matter what allegiances we draw within the movement.

Yo, I am a trans-posi, sex-posi radical anarchafeminist. I bitch about liberal feminists all the time. I have a fucking SCUM tattoo which is kind of a joke but also not really.

Somehow, I manage to be employed in liberal institutions (social services, progressive churches, etc.) without making everyone hate me. I have friends who are liberals.

But I will not take bullshit, and I have no patience for being told to shut up and sit down. I have a place in this movement too, and I'm not down with the scapegoating of radical feminisms. Transphobia? That shit needs to be denounced, constantly. Radscum are no friends of mine. But it's also all too often us "radicals" calling out racism, classism, heterosexism etc within the wider feminist movement. We do good things for feminism. The idea that we're "holding the movement back" because of bad publicity or whatever is bullshit.

And you know what? I love it when people are like, "Yeah, all feminists don't shave their legs and hate men." Cause I'm all, "Yeah, I don't shave my legs and I hate a lot of fucking dudes and oh look, I'm just a regular person like you, because there are fucking legit reasons to not want to shave your legs and also sometimes to hate dudes."
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby rowan » Thu May 2, 12:40 2013

But not all dudes. Not even you, Tookie. :)
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Re: When feminism is hate

Postby Tookie » Thu May 2, 13:01 2013

Well I have a few that I've managed to train well enough... ;)
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