The Gentrification of Standing Rock

Moderators: Enigma, Sonic#

User avatar
Aum
member
member
Posts: 3064
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 23:35 2007
Location: Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ

The Gentrification of Standing Rock

Postby Aum » Sat Apr 8, 12:39 2017

The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.

User avatar
sadsmile123

Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 5:25 2017

Re: The Gentrification of Standing Rock

Postby sadsmile123 » Sun Apr 9, 1:27 2017

Well, I'm happy these activists at least tried to. I think counting western successes is an unpopular argument, whether infrastructure, reforms, technology (which can be a bad thing as well) or medicine. Discriminatory views are accepted today as long as they are against what is perceived to be the stereotypical Western culture, i.e., white, male, western people, and whole disciplines are built around this concept. I think these kind of arguments are already discriminatory in their view, pinning down one's own identity because of one's own membership to a group. They impose identity on these officially non-discriminable groups, count up failures and do not concede successes. they put apparently unbiased identity over actual issues. The same goes for the former thread: today's mainstream discourse puts identity and personal feelings on a higher level than life-threatening issues in the Middle East (or anywhere else). Again, I don't think that it ought to be a black-or-white-issue, where either you impose laws or you remain static: I think there are many degrees towards an approach on problems in the Middle-East (one should be aware of the means used and possible conflicts of interest). However, it should be recognised that you cannot expect to have an answer in a conversation you don't take part in, anyway. Not taking any stand is not a solution.

Taurwen
member
member
Posts: 183
Joined: Sat Jul 2, 9:33 2016

Re: The Gentrification of Standing Rock

Postby Taurwen » Sun Apr 9, 18:16 2017


User avatar
sadsmile123

Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 5:25 2017

Re: The Gentrification of Standing Rock

Postby sadsmile123 » Mon Apr 17, 7:01 2017


User avatar
Sonic#
member
member
Posts: 5114
Joined: Sat Nov 7, 9:37 2009
Location: Georgia, US

Re: The Gentrification of Standing Rock

Postby Sonic# » Mon Apr 17, 7:41 2017


User avatar
rowan
member
member
Posts: 9521
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 11:01 2004
Location: US

Re: The Gentrification of Standing Rock

Postby rowan » Mon Apr 17, 21:24 2017

There are plenty of ways allies helped with Standing Rock. We did it by listening to the elders there and supporting them in the way they wanted us to: by not coming, by donating money and supplies, by going to local rallies and putting pressure on our local communities and police forces to not be complicit (or actually going there). There are a ton of activist things you can to but the thing anyone outside the community affected needs to do is FUCKING LISTEN TO WHAT THEY WANT.

Which is pretty much what we all say. We don't say do nothing. We say listen to the people who are impacted and follow their direction. I know it's hard for us white people to get that through our thick skulls but FFS it's really not that hard.


By the way I believe the current request is for legal fees, as they are still fighting in court. I haven't heard anything for a couple of weeks though, so check in with that.

Taurwen
member
member
Posts: 183
Joined: Sat Jul 2, 9:33 2016

Re: The Gentrification of Standing Rock

Postby Taurwen » Tue Apr 18, 19:01 2017


User avatar
rowan
member
member
Posts: 9521
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 11:01 2004
Location: US

Re: The Gentrification of Standing Rock

Postby rowan » Wed Apr 19, 9:31 2017

Examples of things I do:

Go to Black Lives Matter events that white allies are requested to be present for
Donate $$ and food to things that BLM, Standing Rock have requested
Go to various anti-racism things (e.g. conferences, groups, etc) that have been organized by/with impacted minoritized groups
Work on implementing anti-racist things here at my work where I have some very small amount of leverage in conjunction with and at the request of impacted groups
Make sure that I spend time educating myself about issues by reading feminist perspectives by women of color in the impacted communities so that they don't have to teach me 101 level shit all the time.

Things I do not do:
Go barging in thinking I know everything because that just fucks things up for the people impacted and draws their resources away at best and at worst endangers their lives more.

User avatar
sadsmile123

Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 5:25 2017

Re: The Gentrification of Standing Rock

Postby sadsmile123 » Fri Apr 21, 18:48 2017

Hi everyone,

In order to make it easier to reply to all of you, I have taken a normal way of quoting though copy and paste and haven't changed it (when I adapted pronouns “I”>”you”, I did it through round brackets). You can control it.
It should be noted that this thread is a follow-up to "Feminism Outside the West", where although you may have changed the place - from Middle-Eastern countries, especially Saudi-Arabia (where women were rejected for not complying to marital laws, possibly killed and the other examples shown), to North America's natives -, you still want to argue on the same concept as a whole: the limits of interaction for people who live outside that country/community/etc. (you call them "saviors", a term which I reject in the first place because of the complacently biased connotations of image over content that would again shut down any debate)

Sonic:
I generally agree that it needs planning, but I would not use the argument of planning
The answers of other users in this thread do not allow any new influence to enter a debate on foreign ground.
“Allies are tremendously useful, but diverting resources from the community they're trying to help does more harm than good. The solution isn't "never offer support." Allies need to be responsive to the conditions and needs of each locale they work with, and that requires actively listening to local leaders in the community we're trying to help.”
>Well, you concede that allies may be helpful, which is already a lot, but you don’t specify how (the modality), whose restrictions in other user comments I could not agree with. You are also simply stating that help may divert resources (which it may or may not do), which according to you does more bad than good things.

Rowan’s 1st message:
"I know it’s hard for us white people to get that through our thick skull"
> who said I’m white? And who says white people have thick skulls? This is an example of the socially accepted discrimination I was talking about earlier, perfectly embedded into a feminist discourse. It is claiming people’s attitude and intelligence based on their skin colour only because that skin colour is not socially accepted as discriminable. It is putting social (and possibly racial) membership over individual charcater. Or do you mean with "white" someone raised up in a western country or influenced by western thought? I could kind of understand that, but wouldn’t agree to the generalization.

Taurwen:
"their communities don't have the energy to walk well-meaning but hopeless people through why what they are doing is unhelpful.“
Later on, you say you "don't want to speak for other women in situations (you) don't comprehend“
> As for the first citation here, this is condemning everyone's debate or influence on any possible issue. As for the second citation, that is indeed doing nothing. It presupposes everyone outside is blind because of the cultural differences. It denies any human universality across cultures, and denies any interaction that does not do what they do. You are not allowed to bring any new elements into the debate because you are hopeless anyway if you don't do what they do, which does not make sense. Is it any better that a man punches a woman if that happens in an Arab country? Certainly laws won’t necessarily prohibit it, so it is fine up to a certain point, but I see space for debates, whether from someone who was born and raised there or not.

"It might make me feel better, and some of my friends might admire how brave and compassionate I am" > Another instance of appearance over content. Again, you are deciding for me what my thoughts are and try to put me onto some kind of chivalrous lane. I'm only interested on being able to debate over actual matters without having a feminist shitstorm coming at me, accepting blindly whatever is part of a culture, regardless of minorities in that culture who are not allowed to express themselves. I cannot take this hippie view on a cultural ecosystem, highly discriminating on other groups.

Afterwards, you blatantly divert the actual debates on a general question of giving something to charity.
Rowan says something similar in his first message: "We say listen to the people who are impacted and follow their direction." > that is not a contribution in a discourse. That is giving up the whole discourse, following what they are saying. Isn’t that covering up for actual causes? Accepting and ignoring sexism in other countries, isn't that a form of racism?

“It may not seem active enough for you, but I don't need to look like I'm helping to the detriment of the cause I've chosen. I don't think that's illogical.” > The thing is, again, I don’t care about appearance (“looking like I’m helping”). At this point, it is simply annoying. As already stated, much of feminism wouldn’t exist if women cared about having a positive or a negative image. We are still discussing matters. If you take the natives in America to support the argument that all people outside a given community/culture cannot do anything if they don’t do what the people of that community tell them to do, then actually your idea of support is, through its partiality, already harming.

Rowan 2nd message:
Just as Taurwen names a few options to be part of debates only in one’s own culture. Nobody wants to contribute to an actual debate over sexism in the Middle East, but it is helpful to divert the attention to the “white men’s guilt” through BLM protests and examples of harm to native populations.

“Things I do not do: Go barging in thinking I know everything because that just fucks things up for the people impacted and draws their resources away at best and at worst endangers their lives more.” > this is the best of idea of what could come out when you actually engage in a debate about sexism in the Middle East. A debate with you is like talking to a machine. Everything one does that is not conceded from the start is harming in a catastrophic end-of-world way.


You all seem to put an empirical barrier, where issues cannot be debated because of culture, in order to deny any interaction that does not fit. If you said that that applied only to the native populations, I would understand that because as far as I know native populations in America do not do what is done to Middle-eastern women. You want to overextent from the native example to all examples of “saviorism”, which is what I don’t agree with. You are saying to simply accept the dynamics of the culture and the concepts that are already in it. If my culture said that men could hit and possibly kill women, according to that argument one would have to follow the lead or accept the matter, and I cannot agree with that.

Taurwen
member
member
Posts: 183
Joined: Sat Jul 2, 9:33 2016

Re: The Gentrification of Standing Rock

Postby Taurwen » Sat Apr 22, 18:45 2017

I have a background in Anthropology, which has a history of being very racist, sexist (who's still pissed about the female viking warriors?
I am!) and messing with cultures, so my education has very much taught me to not make rash judgements.
If you want to argue ethics of any one act that's something. If you want to actually help people that's a more delicate dance.

There's also an difference between cultures and laws. For example: Where I live smoking marijuana is illegal. But most people do it, very people care, and the police get shit when they make a charge. Looking at our drug laws only gives you the vaguest ideas of what our culture's values.
Someone coming in and blowing pot smoke in a police officers face and screaming about how awesome marijuana is wouldn't be helping the cause of legalization at all. They'd be hampering it. Because they don't understand our culture, because they are a foreigner who didn't bother asking our opinions.

I was very general in my comments before. Because I understand how complex cultures can be and how much effort it would really take to understand what another (singular) culture really means, the idea of doing it for an entire country, or region like "the middle east" seems hopeless. And again, if you're talking about something like the normalization of violence against women (I might argye the normalization of violence) at best you might be able to make it illegal. But so? If it hasn't become so due to a paradigm shift in the culture it doesn't matter what the law books say, and I fully believe you can only have a cultural paradigm shift that was seeded from within. Years of Roman and British/French/Spanish occupation should have taught us that.

So it comes down to how you as an outsider can make real change in a culture. I told you how I decided to do it. And I'm attempting to explain why I chose those ways. I'm not sure I've followed your issues with my personal methods. If you just want a list of things other cultures find appropriate that I do not I can certainly provide it, but I don't think doing so is helpful, useful, or adds anything. L

User avatar
Sonic#
member
member
Posts: 5114
Joined: Sat Nov 7, 9:37 2009
Location: Georgia, US

Re: The Gentrification of Standing Rock

Postby Sonic# » Sun Apr 23, 18:07 2017


User avatar
rowan
member
member
Posts: 9521
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 11:01 2004
Location: US

Re: The Gentrification of Standing Rock

Postby rowan » Sun Apr 23, 20:24 2017

White people cannot be discriminated against because white people hold power. As for the "we" I was referring to my social status, not necessarily including yours. However your intentional refusal to believe that you should talk to people impacted leads me to believe that whether or not you are actually white, you certainly have steeped in white supremacy that you need to deal with (as all of us who live in white supremacist cultures have, to some degree or another). Of course I don't specify *how* to talk to those people because that depends entirely on which community you're trying to help, and also I am not the person to speak for them. You want to help someone? Ask them how.


Return to “Feminism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests