Brexit

Bitching, whining, complaining, and general negativity

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Nachos
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Brexit

Post by Nachos » Fri Jun 24, 11:34 2016

I just can't even anymore, people. The world is full of idiots and xenophobic bigots. I am so sad and angry right now.
Ugh, I'm tired of my signature.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Bork » Fri Jun 24, 12:51 2016

I am woefully out of touch with what this means for the EU/UK/Britain, because I sort of decided not to really pay attention since I didn't actually think the yes vote would win. But then it did and now the market is going crazy and currency is dropping and this seems pretty not good.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Sonic# » Fri Jun 24, 13:37 2016

I've engaged with this issue in three ways:
1. Through my friends currently in the UK. They were against it for reasons that made sense to me. They were also alarmed at how this was an extension of anti-immigration rhetoric, and about all of the misleading factoids like how much the UK purportedly pays to the EU. I've been thinking of them today.

2. It feels like many conservatives in the US see this as a vote against immigration and international partnerships. It's weird to see Brexit discussed here in those terms - like a dog whistle, it's a quick way of saying that South Asian and Middle Eastern (read: "Muslim") immigration should be stopped. One friend distributed this pithy quote:
"... and in the end, Britain, which had colonized the world, destroyed itself in fantasies that it was being colonized in turn" - historians
. It feels like the US is going down a similar path.

3. The breakdown in who voted for what and where is morbidly fascinating. It seems like most of the impetus to Leave came from rural or economically depressed areas of England, whereas most of London, Scotland, and Northern Ireland voted to Remain. Apparently the Leave vote skewed older. Is this another example of people voting against their self-interests? Did the Remain side not make a good case? Did immigration worries override the benefits of being in the EU? I admit - I don't understand it.

I wish "Brexit" was just a bad name for a biscuit.

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Re: Brexit

Post by monk » Fri Jun 24, 13:50 2016

The way I read it is that the same ignorant xenophobic bigots that allowed Trump to be our Republican candidate for President have cousins in the UK who also don't get it. The older rural voters who are afraid of the "city folk" and their multiculturalisms are a serious force to be reckoned with when the young enlighted urbanite is too busy with life to go to the polls.

I've read some stuff in post voting interview that some people voted for Brexit out of protest thinking there's no way it could happen...I wonder how much of that made the vote a 52% win?
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Re: Brexit

Post by Tweek » Sat Jun 25, 3:35 2016

A referendum is held; one side wins with a majority of over a million and those on the losing side insult those on the winning side suggesting they are stupid, racist, small minded or failing in some other way. I can understand people being upset that their view didn't prevail but that isn't a reason to start insulting people.

We have a result and now have to make things work. The world will not end, countries will continue to trade with each other and we won't suddenly become Europe's answer to North Korea.
ARG!!! I NEED COFFEE!!!

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Re: Brexit

Post by monk » Sat Jun 25, 8:42 2016

You're right Tweek, being an American I don't know from an on the ground perspective who the people are who voted for Brexit. I'm sure they're not all ignorant, or bigots, or both. But the Americans that are voting for Trump here in the U.S. ARE ignorant, or bigots, or both and I say that with some amount of certainty for the many of them.
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And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Sonic# wrote:If these opinions don't matter to you at all, then you are unfit for conversation

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Re: Brexit

Post by Aum » Sun Jun 26, 1:54 2016

If I was there, I would've voted to split based on erosion of sovereignty, and not because of immigrants. It has always been understood that if you join a regionality, you must sacrifice some sovereignty, but Brussels keeps upping the ante. I would not want to live in a country where a democratic people could be overridden by a foreign political institution. No thank you.

Globalization is trashing this planet and causing great social inequity. I'm glad to see it scaled back. Everyone is crying about their careers and travel opportunities. Nobody cares about the poor who are impacted by supranational organizations and the wealthy elite.

The is the first time ever that I have seen democracy punch the establishment right in the gut. I jumped for joy when I read today that some of the world's wealthiest are now out $120 billion.

Britain will suffer short term. Long-term it will be better off. We need to return to being more local, not more global. The real issues have nothing to do with xenophobia. The neo-liberal controlled media are spinning stories about racism like crazy, but nobody wants to talk about sovereignty issues. I hope I never live to see a one-world government, and now the UK vote has helped me to rest a little. Hopefully Germany follows suit in the coming years.
The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Sonic# » Sun Jun 26, 5:30 2016

I don't get the "local, not global" argument. People vote for their representatives in the EU legislature. Where does locality stop? At the level of the state? The county? The town? The downside of that relentless locality is that there's nothing to step in to prevent a Flint, MI water crisis, and the costs of trade have to be reproduced in every locale.

And I don't understand how the poor benefit from either a separate UK or a UK in the EU. Is the Conservative-led government vying to help local towns if only the EU would let them? No. Would a Labour government in the EU be far less effective than a Labour government out of the EU? I don't know, but I don't see why that's the case. Would Farage and his party? I can see the connection between the Brexit vote and people's generalized grievances with globalization, immigration, and even specific issues like NHS reform. I don't see how it will help.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Aum » Sun Jun 26, 14:16 2016

Sonic# wrote:I don't get the "local, not global" argument. People vote for their representatives in the EU legislature. Where does locality stop? At the level of the state? The county? The town? The downside of that relentless locality is that there's nothing to step in to prevent a Flint, MI water crisis, and the costs of trade have to be reproduced in every locale.
In terms of federal democracy, it stops at a nation's borders. If there's no containment then democracy can't work.
Sonic# wrote:And I don't understand how the poor benefit from either a separate UK or a UK in the EU. Is the Conservative-led government vying to help local towns if only the EU would let them? No. Would a Labour government in the EU be far less effective than a Labour government out of the EU? I don't know, but I don't see why that's the case. Would Farage and his party? I can see the connection between the Brexit vote and people's generalized grievances with globalization, immigration, and even specific issues like NHS reform. I don't see how it will help.
Immigration won't change, despite grievances. The UK will still be beholden to EU demands in order to have an economy. The EU won't just let the UK slip away like that. The difference is that the EU won't be dictating UK domestic policy.

My perception is that the UK recoil is due to pace of change. As much as people hate conservatives, they slow the rate of change, which is sometimes a good thing.
The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Sonic# » Mon Jun 27, 7:48 2016

There is containment. It stops at the EU's borders - an EU where the people of the UK have representation.

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Re: Brexit

Post by melsbells » Mon Jun 27, 15:09 2016

My instinct was to be excited about the outcome of the Brexit vote, because I overall dislike the EU, despite awesome things like convenience of not exchanging currency and not being allowed to join if your country has the death penalty or some other human rights violations. I was surprised when I first heard about the referendum, since the UK has extra allowances as a founding member (sucha as being allowed to keep the £) and built in border security as an island. I had assumed the vote came from the ecomonic crisis and was unaware of the xenophobic propaganda attached to the leave campaign. I now have a hard time believing that "xenophobic bigots" didn't play a part in the referrendum passing, but I'm still inclined to think the outcome is the preferred one. I'm interested to see what follows with other countries. Finland has strong anti-EU support that has been going on long before the migrant crisis in Europe (really they voted to join the EU by small margins).

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Re: Brexit

Post by Aum » Mon Jun 27, 16:54 2016

Sonic# wrote:There is containment. It stops at the EU's borders - an EU where the people of the UK have representation.
Yeah, just like North America has "containment" yet U.S. companies get to pillage Canadian and Mexican natural resources, labor markets, and real estate.

Your argument is a bit disingenuous because we all know that individual countries have to make sacrifices to sovereignty and local markets when they join larger regionalities. Often those deals aren't equitable.

People call Britons racist and xenophobic but does anyone bother to examine the underlying cause of that? If people perceive that their culture is being eroded by porous borders and unfair treaties, then maybe that's worth looking at instead of just dismissing it as sheer ignorance. Sometimes people don't have the privilege of education to intellectualize these things but they are still perceiving a real phenomenon.

It's just like here in Vancouver, where it's politically taboo to blame the Chinese for destroying the city through rampant speculation in the housing market, yet all the statistics show it is the nouveau riche from China that are doing the greatest share of damage. I don't hate the Chinese as a culture, I am simply pointing out an economic policy that is failing people because of open access to our Canadian market. The government makes a killing on the capital gains while people who have lived here their whole lives - not to mention the younger generations just starting out in life - all have to leave and live in the boonies. Even doctors can't afford to live here now! And who benefits? The uber wealthy and the privileged institutions. Same with the EU.

The global market, once it descends onto a unique place, usually destroys it. It destroys its local culture, the ability of local people to sustain themselves affordably, and it homogenizes it with every other crappy globalized city. How can local people possibly compete with the world's entire population of wealthy? They can't. Once the global gaze turns to a place, it's done for. I've been in Vancouver for over 10 years now and it has changed DRASTICALLY because of neo-liberal policy. Without some degree of protectionism, the pace of change is excessive, and usually destructive.

The few benefit, the majority crumble. I don't blame Britain one iota for pulling out of the EU. And I thank it because it's one thorn in the side of globalists and NWO freaks who think the world is better off with regional governments instead of national sovereignties.
The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.

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Re: Brexit

Post by octarineoboe » Mon Jun 27, 19:24 2016

^ Everything I've read or heard about Brexit, though, suggests that it will be the lower classes in Britain who suffer economically. The economic frustrations you point to are absolutely real, but I don't see how leaving the EU is the solution.
Aum wrote:How can local people possibly compete with the world's entire population of wealthy? They can't.
True, but it doesn't seem viable for most local people to compete even with their locality's population of wealthy people.

What I see as particularly weird and heartbreaking about Brexit are the stories of Leave voters saying they didn't think their vote would actually count, and they wanted to make a statement but not actually leave. I don't know how many people that applies to - so that group may not have been the deciding factor - but it's both heartbreaking that people have been so disillusioned as to think their votes don't matter and simultaneously frustrating. It's the same thing I was saying in the other thread about third-party voting in the US: you should think through the consequences of your vote because it does matter.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Nachos » Sun Jul 3, 11:06 2016

What worries me is now what will happen to EU people in the UK, and UK people in the EU. There is no plan, though there are some terrifying rumours. This has a personal effect on my family, my loved ones, and I.

What breaks my heart is the hate and violence now on the streets. This is not my England.
Ugh, I'm tired of my signature.

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