Higher Priority Feminism vs race.

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Skeezy

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Higher Priority Feminism vs race.

Post by Skeezy » Wed Aug 9, 11:25 2017

Hello everyone,

Recently I read a topic about feminism and racial bias. It got me wondering peoples opinion on certain aspects of the two. Which brings me to some questions of opinion. I'm in the U.S. but am also curious about abroad.

1. Does feminism generally focus on racial issues at all? Or just women as whole?

2. Do most feel the need to eliminate gender bias outweighs our need to eliminate racial bias?

3. Do you feel racial bias has diminished to the point where the need to address it has diminished to minimal scale?

4. D you think as feminism prgresses it will naturally diminish other known biases?

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rowan
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Re: Higher Priority Feminism vs race.

Post by rowan » Wed Aug 9, 11:29 2017

1. depends, feminism is big, and the best feminists are intersectional
2. personally I think we need to tangle with our racial bias before we'll get anywhere for real with gender bias
3. hahaha no
4. it is well demonstrated that knowing about one axis of oppression does not necessarily translate into understanding on other axes; however I do hold out hope that it helps somewhat. Except white feminism has a very long history of stealing from and oppressing Black & Native women at the forefront. So it *can* but it's not a guarantee by any means.
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Re: Higher Priority Feminism vs race.

Post by Skeezy » Wed Aug 9, 12:10 2017

Lol I admit #3 seems kind of silly but Ive had some conversations where people felt that way.

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Re: Higher Priority Feminism vs race.

Post by Aum » Wed Aug 9, 12:24 2017

First wave feminism was for white women, although women at the time didn't want to admit that. They would've said that feminism was about the rights of all women, but the ensuing inner conflict about race turned feminism into a racial movement as well.

Since most of us are neither first nor second wave feminists at this point, I would say that the movement is inclusive of many different arenas. In my opinion though, as a male ally who has partaken in a lot of activism, feminism is still primarily about women.

The thing is, you can't really isolate "women" in a movement. If you champion the equality of women then it carries over into everything else in society.
The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.

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Re: Higher Priority Feminism vs race.

Post by Sonic# » Wed Aug 9, 12:32 2017

1. Agree with rowan. Focusing on "women as a whole" sometimes becomes problematic because that either lacks enough context to be useful or often only really helps white women. First wave feminism was like that - tried hard, had some good goals, but left a lot of people out. Pop-feminism also sometimes does this. So working for fairness towards all women is a fair general goal, but people need to be aware of unseen assumptions, especially if people avoid speaking specifically about groups and situations.

2. Don't know. I think the idea of competition between them is a misnomer. Both are important. Furthermore, for many people both are entangled with each other. So setting one aside to exclusively deal with the other one would miss a lot.

3. Hell no.

4. Only if a given feminism also makes addressing those biases part of a standard practice. I don't see that happening incidentally or by analogy.

PS. Will just point out that, if this discussion remains respectful, it could be in Feminism or at least Random.

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Re: Higher Priority Feminism vs race.

Post by melsbells » Thu Aug 10, 14:16 2017

1. I take it that feminisms on average don't, but the feminist circles I find myself in do, and maybe it's wishful thinking, but I think that's the type of feminism with the most growth of card-carrying members.

2. I've often gone down the armchair rabbit hole, wondering if I spent all my energy on solving one problem I see in the world, if I would even be able to do it without simultaneously working to change other problems in the world. The conclusion I always come to is, no, that there are too many interconnecting factors. But most? I've been living in Finland for the past five years, an extremely homogeneous country, so I take it that gender bias does outweigh racial bias for most people, with the excuse that gender affects the population to a greater extent. I would in turn argue that I see the country as more racist than sexist.

3. No. I'm sorry that this question needed to be asked.

4. Not naturally. I think it would take a lot of intention. Similar to what Rowan was saying, I've been in too many situations where a person can't empathize with another's oppression, despite having similar experiences. I do however think that if one is to have inner-consistency, the progression of feminism necessitates the diminishment of other biases.

Edited because the last sentence in #2 was unfinished.

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Re: Higher Priority Feminism vs race.

Post by Skeezy » Fri Aug 11, 12:15 2017

As most already know, I am biased against feminism. The thing is I'm going by what I've read and heard. This is no way to form a realistic opinion. Talking to actual feminists and finding out their views gives a better overall view.

I can relate to feminism to a degree in that feminism has to deal with anti feminism. Anti feminism can be as crude, non empathetic and stubborn as racism sometimess. As far as in need of immediate urgent necessity of addressing the issue, I say racism.

In the U.S. I say racism does have the bigger hurdle but I could entirely be wrong as its only my point of view. I grew up in a major city with high crime so thats the view I have. Without removing certain laws and practices that were made in racially motivated and divided times, and educating people on historical lies, racial progression is not going anywhere.

Feminism has a gender hurdle to overcome and I see that being almost just as stubborn as the governemnt admitting it still has enforced racist policies in place.

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Re: Higher Priority Feminism vs race.

Post by Enigma » Sat Aug 12, 7:11 2017

I really don't think it has to be a competition. Sexism and racism are terrible things we should work to reduce. If my house and your house are on fire let's not waste time arguing over who has it worse. We should work together to get both the fires out as soon as possible.
"Human beings are amazing... we might be horrible, horrible, but we're wonderful too. Otherwise, why go on?"

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Re: Higher Priority Feminism vs race.

Post by Sonic# » Sun Aug 13, 9:40 2017

There are both gender hurdles and racial hurdles in place.

In the U.S. I say racism does have the bigger hurdle but I could entirely be wrong as its only my point of view.
I respect that. Overt racism like the terrorist attack and racist protest in Charlottesville, VA yesterday shows that white supremacism is alive and well. Then there are all the tacit and insidious ways that racism manifests in policing procedures, urban planning, drug enforcement policy, retail practices, and so on.

Some of these systemic racial issues are also gender issues. The American conservative vision of someone on TANF (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families) was a black single mother who refuses to work and who has lots of sex to draw more money. That combines stereotypes against black people (perceived to lack work ethic or family values) and women (prude/whore dichotomy) in a slanderous way. There's a lot to disentangle there, but the simple strands of racism and sexism should be evident. There's a lot of room for advocacy from several angles.

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Re: Higher Priority Feminism vs race.

Post by Skeezy » Mon Aug 14, 11:46 2017

Almost demands a new topic but now Im curious as to people would go about eliminating hurdles for either or both. Meaning what do you personally think would guve either movement a large jump in the right direction?

For racism for me its the fake war on drugs which Im sure most could have guessed.

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Re: Higher Priority Feminism vs race.

Post by rowan » Mon Aug 14, 20:44 2017

Definitely need to eliminate the fake war on drugs. Also need to release everyone held on marijuana charges and erase their records and give them opportunities (instead of letting rich white kids make $$ of marijuana)

Also I'm coming to the conclusion that we pretty much need to dismantle the police system entirely. I'm not sure how to go about that though.

Plenty of other things. Reparations. Confronting our white supremacy and actually grappling with our history instead of pretending the civil war fixed everything.
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Re: Higher Priority Feminism vs race.

Post by Skeezy » Wed Aug 16, 7:24 2017

@Rowan


You know its funny all the messages you hear growing up. The older I get, the more I begin to sound like Michael from Good Times lol.

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Re: Higher Priority Feminism vs race.

Post by spacefem » Fri Aug 18, 7:34 2017

1. Does feminism generally focus on racial issues at all? Or just women as whole?
You can't focus on women as a whole without also questioning on racial issues, because racism affects women. Black women don't get to walk down the street and say "Excuse me could you JUST be sexist towards me and not racist, because I'm a woman." We're helping women, and to help *that* woman we have to fight racism.

It would be like an environmentalist saying "I don't want to think about the ocean." Um, hi, it's huge. You can pick up all the trash from your back yard but eventually you need to understand why the polar ice caps are melting, otherwise your shallow take on the cause is going to make your activism totally ineffective.
2. Do most feel the need to eliminate gender bias outweighs our need to eliminate racial bias?
No.
3. Do you feel racial bias has diminished to the point where the need to address it has diminished to minimal scale?
No. If anything it's gotten worse. I think racism and classism are keeping a lot of women in poverty. A lot of white women are clawing their way to the top of the socio-economic scale, often with the help of white men. It's a lot harder for poor and minority women to latch onto white male privilege.
4. Do you think as feminism progresses it will naturally diminish other known biases?
Only if we're doing our job.
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