MGTOW: Introduction

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SimpleMan
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Re: MGTOW: Introduction

Post by SimpleMan » Tue Jan 9, 10:20 2018

Sonic# wrote:
Tue Jan 9, 9:29 2018
These comments seem substantially similar to the 12th century writer Andreas Capellanus, who dressed his warnings against love in similar misogyny or woman-hating.

And on and on. His arguments are similarly misogynistic, as they rest in saying that women in general love poorly, so men should be fearful when loving and marrying them. Then he piles on the stereotypes, creating a false image of every woman. He does all this so that you (the reader) should be sure to marry Jesus (the "Bridegroom") instead. It's hard to take seriously, except as a reminder of how a male cleric could think so basely of women and sex.

Taurwen's answer is the level-headed and quick counter. We choose the best we can and don't fall into hasty misogynistic generalizations.
Neighbors next door just had a baby about a month ago... they looked like the most happy people I have seeing in a long time... A couple of nights ago they had a big argument, someone was throwing plates all over the apartment, I can hear the man screaming "stop, stop please..." and sometimes he also scream "fuck you, fuck you, fuck you..." back and forth between the 2 screams, the woman also scream but I was not able to make what she said...

They even broke the window of their apartment, now there is a piece of cardboard taped on the hole, I figure it is too cold at this time of the year for holes on the windows?

I talked to my mother about this, because she knows about this kind of things better...

So far the options are:

A. That the woman changed after delivering the baby, my mother call it something like postpartum depression.

B. That the man have being for a long time without sex and probably he wanted it but the woman maybe was not ready yet for it. And he was not taking a no...

I saw the guy around he looks very embarrassed, for sure he figures out I hear all that noise... I am a bit noisy... he have being sleeping in a sofa since the argument.

Anyway, whatever the problem was about... It is definitely a situation I would like to find myself in... I don't know if both of them figure out their stuff yet, or if they are thinking this could be the end of it...

So I have to try to have to do the benefit/risk analysis about his situation... in one hand he was working double time to afford all the bills that the baby menas... but he was very happy about it, he seamed like he never resent it, all worthy he would say... now stuff is not as nice... I am still trying to figure out... if I balance it out, did the good was more than the bad? or they cancel it out? or the bad was more than the good?... I am now counting days to see if they figure out their stuff and go back to happy, or if it is all over...

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Re: MGTOW: Introduction

Post by Taurwen » Tue Jan 9, 11:28 2018

Or they are human and have a new stressor in their life AND are running on little to no sleep.
It happens, hormones and stress run high after a baby is born. Add in PPD or PPA (or someone blaming everything a woman does on them) and you have a shit show waiting to happen.
Partnership isn't always easy or happy. But if you've chosen well the rough patches are temporary.
You're looking too far into a snap shot of a couples situation and making assumptions on the whole. It's not fair or logical.

Edit: you're in the U.S. Right? That adds another level of fucked up as there's so little parental leave. This may have been an issue with both parents having to go back to work, or something like that.

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Re: MGTOW: Introduction

Post by SimpleMan » Tue Jan 9, 11:34 2018

Taurwen wrote:
Tue Jan 9, 11:28 2018
Or they are human and have a new stressor in their life AND are running on little to no sleep.
It happens, hormones and stress run high after a baby is born. Add in PPD or PPA (or someone blaming everything a woman does on them) and you have a shit show waiting to happen.
Partnership isn't always easy or happy. But if you've chosen well the rough patches are temporary.
You're looking too far into a snap shot of a couples situation and making assumptions on the whole. It's not fair or logical.

Edit: you're in the U.S. Right? That adds another level of fucked up as there's so little parental leave. This may have been an issue with both parents having to go back to work, or something like that.
Yeah, all that I work with is snapshots... a thing I see in the supermarket, a thing I see in a street... and so on, even stuff I see on TV... then I kinda stitch it all together and try to imagine the full picture that way... I admit it, it is not scientific or anything like that...

It is just the best I can do... But I do consider what other people tell, me about their own experiences... because they are giving insight information that I would not obtain any other way, so that is very valuable for me.

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Re: MGTOW: Introduction

Post by DarkOne » Tue Jan 9, 12:03 2018

SimpleMan wrote:
Tue Jan 9, 11:34 2018
...
It is just the best I can do...
Is it, though? Saying you can only fill in the blanks with scenarios that support your narrative might be selling yourself short. Challenging those with views different than yours (like, say, posting here) and taking some of their input into account might be more on the right track of "the best you can do".
"Winston Churchill once said 'The eyes are the windows of your face.' " -A man who's very scared of plants.

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Re: MGTOW: Introduction

Post by jamiehood » Tue Jan 9, 12:22 2018

SimpleMan wrote:
Mon Jan 8, 21:39 2018
jamiehood wrote:
Mon Jan 8, 19:56 2018
Hi SimpleMan,
I'm not too familiar with MGTOW, who they are, their ideas, but I am eager to learn more.
From what I've heard, MGTOW are similar to MRAs, a group I used to consider myself a part of. I think the work that both feminists and MRAs do is invaluable to society, because of the issues they solve, but the problem I ended up having with more radical MRAs was one of the same problems I had had with radical feminists: I felt they emphasized the male perspective and male issues over female perspectives and issues when I feel like both of these issues are equally important: men's and women's issues. I don't want to use the word intersectionality, as I've heard it thrown around as a buzzword, but my current stance is that men and women should not be fighting over who has it worse, because some men's issues and some women's issues are very similar, and can be solved together. We should try to solve these issues in harmony, and not try to turn it into a contest of who is more oppressed. This is simply my take. But please let me know a little more about MGTOW, as I am almost completely new to this topic aside from the few things I know about the Men's Rights Movement. I am young, open, and still finding my beliefs, so I am perfectly content to have a discussion and hear your points, as I'm constantly adjusting what I believe. I guess that's just a part of being a naive little teen, lol.
Hi Jamie thanks for your comment,

MGTOW and MRAs are totally different.

MGTOW does not do any form of activism. We basically separate ourselves from society and that is pretty much it... there is different levels of separation, all the way down to the guy living off the grid in some forest.

The MGTOW trick is basically to do what we call a cost/benefit analysis.. if the cost is greater or equal than the benefit, then just don't engage in that... if you see that the benefit is greater and you want to engage in society, that is fine too... though you will not be a MGTOW.

This is a rather long video, this guy is doing the cost/benefit analysis... just keep in mind that this guy just had a standard divorce deal, that is why he is living in an RV in a walmart parking lot... so he wil say some few angry things in the video, but for the rest of it, he really do an interesting breakdown of the analysis, though his analysis looks somewhere between PUA and MGTOW... but at least you get to see how it is done, you can do your own... for everything, no just for marriage...

For instance College education, it have got so expensive that for some degrees you will be better of taking a blue collar job instead... and so on... always compare what is the cost, what is the risk you are taking, and what is the benefit you goign to obtain, make it in dollars if you can, so it is more simple... then decide for yourself if it works for you or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp1nUtYgTjU
Ok, thanks for clearing that up. So, do MGTOW's beliefs just revolve around this cost/benefit philosophy? From what I had heard, MGTOW revolved around men, but I don't know much else, so I'll watch the video soon, and ask you if I have any more questions.

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Re: MGTOW: Introduction

Post by Taurwen » Tue Jan 9, 13:13 2018

I'm with Dark One here. It's not the best you can do. You heard a fight and didn't even use your own reasoning skills to try to be empathetic, unless you know absolutely nothing about babies, and never came across the idea that they need a lot of care that might inhibit sleep. OR you've never gotten too little sleep and been short with someone.
Heck, even after asking your mom you can only say
called it something like postpartum depression
You didn't bother to look into that more. Something like postpartum depression. Heaven forbid you try to look out of your small circle of experience. There are millions of articles on PPD, it's been known for quite awhile. A cursory glance and a bit of critical thinking would lead you to believe a forum based largely on feminism and parenting would know about this so-called-phenomenon.

Don't just look think. Don't just watch, pursue information. You can probably do it! Believe in yourself!

Also, if your mom thinks the only reason a man might be upset is because he hasn't gotten laid in a bit... She needs to rethink how she views men as well. That's insulting as hell.

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Re: MGTOW: Introduction

Post by SimpleMan » Tue Jan 9, 19:00 2018

DarkOne wrote:
Tue Jan 9, 12:03 2018
SimpleMan wrote:
Tue Jan 9, 11:34 2018
...
It is just the best I can do...
Is it, though? Saying you can only fill in the blanks with scenarios that support your narrative might be selling yourself short. Challenging those with views different than yours (like, say, posting here) and taking some of their input into account might be more on the right track of "the best you can do".
I do take the feedback I get into account.

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Re: MGTOW: Introduction

Post by SimpleMan » Tue Jan 9, 19:02 2018

jamiehood wrote:
Tue Jan 9, 12:22 2018
Ok, thanks for clearing that up. So, do MGTOW's beliefs just revolve around this cost/benefit philosophy? From what I had heard, MGTOW revolved around men, but I don't know much else, so I'll watch the video soon, and ask you if I have any more questions.
That is correct, the cost/benefit is one of the main pillars... the other one, if I have to pick, would be unreasonable high social expectations... ans in knowing that I will never will be able to be as good as people imagine I should be just kinda makes me don't even want to try in the first place...

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Re: MGTOW: Introduction

Post by SimpleMan » Tue Jan 9, 19:09 2018

Taurwen wrote:
Tue Jan 9, 13:13 2018
I'm with Dark One here. It's not the best you can do. You heard a fight and didn't even use your own reasoning skills to try to be empathetic, unless you know absolutely nothing about babies, and never came across the idea that they need a lot of care that might inhibit sleep. OR you've never gotten too little sleep and been short with someone.
Heck, even after asking your mom you can only say
I can see why you say I have not empathy... most of the people think it is because autism, but I personally think I am just a jerk.

Anyway, now I am in a moral debate.... if this situation happens again, should I call the cops or not? will they help prevent a tragedy or will they make it worse for them?
You didn't bother to look into that more. Something like postpartum depression. Heaven forbid you try to look out of your small circle of experience. There are millions of articles on PPD, it's been known for quite awhile. A cursory glance and a bit of critical thinking would lead you to believe a forum based largely on feminism and parenting would know about this so-called-phenomenon.

Don't just look think. Don't just watch, pursue information. You can probably do it! Believe in yourself!
You are correct I don't feel I need to educate myself about postpartum depression... my little head is already full of useless information no need to put in more of the same... what should I do with a lot of information about postpartum depression?
Also, if your mom thinks the only reason a man might be upset is because he hasn't gotten laid in a bit... She needs to rethink how she views men as well. That's insulting as hell.
Probably I did not explain this correctly... as I understood it, the woman was upset in both situations. The difference is that in the first situation the man didn't necessary did something to upset her, she is just that way because postpartum depression... in the second possibility the man did something to upset her, as in.. trying to have sex with her when she doesn't want to.

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Re: MGTOW: Introduction

Post by Taurwen » Tue Jan 9, 19:30 2018

Why are you here? You admit to not knowing or caring about anything directly out of your circle of experience and yet you want us to know and care and it looks like agree with your circle of experience and life plan. You view everything in such a binary it's flummoxing.

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Re: MGTOW: Introduction

Post by Sonic# » Tue Jan 9, 22:09 2018

^ I agree. Why engage someone unwilling to learn?
SimpleMan wrote: what should I do with a lot of information about postpartum depression?
You would understand more about the people you ostensibly reject but feel free to judge from the glass bubble of your own ignorance. Logically, an unknown factor would invite learning more about the factor, figuring out how it fits in one's worldview and, if it doesn't fit, revising prior assumptions about the situation. In your version, you place your own assumptions above information that could confirm or deny it, making your claims radically unreliable.

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Re: MGTOW: Introduction

Post by SimpleMan » Fri Jan 12, 0:20 2018

Sonic# wrote:
Tue Jan 9, 22:09 2018
You would understand more about the people you ostensibly reject but feel free to judge from the glass bubble of your own ignorance...
That is why I ask my mother, she have a lot of wisdom in that regards... after that... I don't really think I need to do a PhD in maternity histeria... there is nothing practical for me to use on such topic... I am never going to be pregnant, and if a woman starts to scream a trough objects around the only thing for me to understand is to get out of there as fast as I can... that is a much as practical knowledge I need... the rest is some pleyades that have not use for me. Had I have an interest on the topic, then maybe... but I honestly find it a boring topic... so...

But for what it is... one of my mom's theories... I am pretty much satisfied with it, not need to dig more... I already know what "depression" is and I already know what "postpartum" is.
Logically, an unknown factor would invite learning more about the factor, figuring out how it fits in one's worldview and, if it doesn't fit, revising prior assumptions about the situation. In your version, you place your own assumptions above information that could confirm or deny it, making your claims radically unreliable.
Giving you updates on the neighbors sage:

After the fight they were not longer sleeping in the place, up to today now they are back... I asked my mother what this could means, and she says that if the woman was so stressed out it is possible that she could have severe health problems, for instance bleeding... my mother also says that other option is that after the argument the man left and so the woman that just have a baby can't really be alone and could have go to the house of a relative... but for the kind of fight this was, mom is almost sure this gave the woman some complications...

So... should I pick up some medicine book and start to cramp that stuff up too?

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