another "feminist" thread...just warning u

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another "feminist" thread...just warning u

Post by Gealach » Thu Mar 27, 19:31 2003

okay, so again i been thinkin (and plus that book "Letters to a Young Feminist" made me think of it) about the fact that if a woman tries to do a "man's job" she's generally put down...but a man that does a "woman's job" is, at least now, praised.....i mean really, if a man is a good father, and takes care of his kids and spends time with them, and does general child-raising then he's some great man...but a woman who joins the military is thought of as "butch" and just recently i read an article about how a bunch of women in one of the military academies were raped...all because they were doing a "man's job"......just doesn't make sense...
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Post by xenolai » Thu Mar 27, 19:39 2003

I think it's because most men are used to being the strongest and stuff like that, and when women come in and start doing their job, they get all mad and stuff, especially if the woman does it better. It's just the way they think.
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Post by opodgodie » Thu Mar 27, 19:44 2003

Men are taking on feminine rolls now too. There are stay at home dads. No, what happened to the women wasn't right. Throughout the years woman are thought of as the weaker sex, and that may never change. Yes, women can kill anyone as well as a man, just look at Sans.
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Re: another "feminist" thread...just warning u

Post by Green Giant Reincarnate » Thu Mar 27, 19:58 2003

Gealach wrote:okay, so again i been thinkin (and plus that book "Letters to a Young Feminist" made me think of it) about the fact that if a woman tries to do a "man's job" she's generally put down...but a man that does a "woman's job" is, at least now, praised.....
Actually I think the opposite. Women who work construction, join politics, or enter the corporate world are heralded in the media. We even have Take Your Daughter to Work Day. Meanwile, not very many people have respect for a male nurse.
Gealach wrote:i mean really, if a man is a good father, and takes care of his kids and spends time with them, and does general child-raising then he's some great man...
Taking care of your kids and spending time with them is part of being a good father. There is nothing exclusively feminine about it.
Gealach wrote:but a woman who joins the military is thought of as "butch" and just recently i read an article about how a bunch of women in one of the military academies were raped...all because they were doing a "man's job"......just doesn't make sense...
I agree with you here. Sexism is still rampant in the military.
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Post by spacefem » Thu Mar 27, 20:38 2003

I've found that the less education a job requires, the more likely you are to find sexism in it. As an engineer, I've encountered little to no direct discrimination. But I had a girlfriend who wanted to be a cop, and just got raked over the coals every day until she quit.

Men don't have it all easy... I can't tell you how many jokes I've heard about how a guy who goes into interior design just *must* be gay. Really, I think there are gender inequalities on all sides we need to fight against.

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Post by Gealach » Thu Mar 27, 23:38 2003

^ aw true, and after i posted this i realized it...but from what i've seen (or heard of) it seems more extream when toward women, like okay the men are made fun of...but the women are raped or sexually harrassed...*srugz* i know gay men are killed and so on...but it seems generally worse for the women...*srugz* maybe the bad stuff to the women is just made a bigger deal...
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Post by opodgodie » Thu Mar 27, 23:45 2003

Gealach wrote: i know gay men are killed and so on.
They aren't killed for being in the military by gun or that kind of stuff. They're sent to fix things on the roof during a bad storm or what not. It is, but it isn't being killed. If they fall off the roof, that's their own fault. To me, just discharging them for being gay would just be easier.
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Post by Gealach » Thu Mar 27, 23:52 2003

opodgodie wrote:
Gealach wrote: i know gay men are killed and so on.
They aren't killed for being in the military by gun or that kind of stuff. They're sent to fix things on the roof during a bad storm or what not. It is, but it isn't being killed. If they fall off the roof, that's their own fault. To me, just discharging them for being gay would just be easier.
firstly, i was referring to HATE CRIMES!! not the military.....

secondly what the fuck is this about sending "them" to fix roofs yet not armed combat (or that's what i'm assuming u meant when u said they didn't get killed by gun)........discharge them for being gay? aw what if i said u should be discharged (were u to join) because ur straight? what if i said...hey ur not gay, i'm gunna go over and kick ur ass? then how'd u like it huh? it's people like who that make me see the hopelessness of all i wish i could do...
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Post by KingTZ » Thu Mar 27, 23:55 2003

spacefem wrote: I've heard about how a guy who goes into interior design just *must* be gay.
lol aren't they?

I don't see how it's discrimatory to think that gays make much better interior designers and tailors and fashion consultants than straight men. It just is. Like a fact of nature.
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Post by Gealach » Thu Mar 27, 23:58 2003

KingTZ wrote:
spacefem wrote: I've heard about how a guy who goes into interior design just *must* be gay.
lol aren't they?

I don't see how it's discrimatory to think that gays make much better interior designers and tailors and fashion consultants than straight men. It just is. Like a fact of nature.
just like women are better at writing poetry and like to write it more than men....oh except wait, didn't women used to not publish anything much because they couldn't? yeah so see these stereotypes really mean nothing...
"I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything as a career. I don't want to sell anything bought or processed, or buy anything sold or processed, or process anything sold, bought, or processed, or repair anything sold, bought, or processed. You know, as a career, I don't want to do that." - Lloyd in Say Anything

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Post by KingTZ » Fri Mar 28, 0:07 2003

Well if you go and pick an example that both sexes are good at then of course it won't work.

Either sex can be good at lots of things, but there are certain things that men are better at than women and vice versa. For instance, men ARE generally stronger and are better at physical labor. That's just the way nature designed us. There's no denying it.

Ok, I can't think of something that women are strictly better at...but I'm sure there's something...
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Post by xenolai » Fri Mar 28, 0:16 2003

KingTZ wrote:Well if you go and pick an example that both sexes are good at then of course it won't work.

Either sex can be good at lots of things, but there are certain things that men are better at than women and vice versa. For instance, men ARE generally stronger and are better at physical labor. That's just the way nature designed us. There's no denying it.

Ok, I can't think of something that women are strictly better at...but I'm sure there's something...
hm, how about, HAVING BABIES!
did you know, women have 4 (or maybe it's 9, i can't remember exactly) times the pain tolerance of men?
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Post by spacefem » Fri Mar 28, 7:12 2003

the thing gealach is examining is which gender is treated better when they try to go outside those common occupations. Most women don't chose to be firefighters, but when one does, does she get a hard time about it? She shouldn't. Same with a man who wants to be a nurse or a hairdresser.

The reason that I think this is a big issue is because occupations traditionally held by women are all squat paying jobs, whereas occupations traditionally held by men all pay a decent enough amount of money to provide for a family. In this day and age, when women are providing for some families, or at least themselves, it's more important to them that they're able to break into these worlds. I hate when people make feminism look like a pure money issue, because it's really not, this issue is only a tiny sliver of what feminism is all about. But it's still there.

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Post by Jack8889 » Fri Mar 28, 10:05 2003

Men don't have it all easy... I can't tell you how many jokes I've heard about how a guy who goes into interior design just *must* be gay.
Thats funny, because the one of the interior decorators that i knew <b> was <b> gay and the other one i knew acted like it.
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Post by MFS » Fri Mar 28, 10:42 2003

Jack8889 wrote:
Men don't have it all easy... I can't tell you how many jokes I've heard about how a guy who goes into interior design just *must* be gay.
Thats funny, because the one of the interior decorators that i knew <b> was <b> gay and the other one i knew acted like it.
umm... I know a guy who does interior design, is married, has 2 kids, and plays drums. There is nothing remotely "gay" about him. Just offering this as a counterpoint.
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Post by opodgodie » Fri Mar 28, 13:46 2003

MFS wrote: umm... I know a guy who does interior design, is married, has 2 kids, and plays drums. There is nothing remotely "gay" about him. Just offering this as a counterpoint.
Something about a straight interior designer is just kind of odd. If I'm going to hire an interior designer, I guess I'd want a gay one. I can see eye to eye with a gay man better than a straight one.
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Post by Skalle » Fri Mar 28, 16:10 2003

I do a lot of "male" things, but its rare i encounter any chauvenism, actually. However, when i do see something similar to chauvenism, it usually comes from males around 10-14 and 20-25 years old. For example, ive played chess since i was six years old, and the only people that have a problem with losing to me, are insecure men that are with their friends. More mature men, (from 25 and up, generally) and guys around my age, hide their chauvenism (if they feel any) good, hehe.
It does piss me off though, when little 13 years old boys stand next to the boy im playing against and are like "omigod, its a GURRRRRL, theres noway ya gonna lose THAT!!". (this the biggest reason why i strongly dislike playing against young and immature little boys) However, the pleasure is immense when im about to beat the guy im playing against, and his friends around the table whisper "SHIT.....!" to eachother. HAHAHAHAHAH. *ahem*

I really like doing male stuff though, ive just joined a Wing Tsun club (a material art thingy) and its always a good laugh to go there, cus me and my sister are the ONLY females there, its hilarious actually to be in this all-male community, theres none of those annoying, snobby, slutty girls and theres always a bunch of cuties there, hihi. Also, being very good friends with ones computer is also rare to see among girls, and for example in online games, being the only girl in a 40 guys guild, can be quite amusing.

So, i think its just fun to be the first girl doing something reserved for males, its a challange and overcomming all of that "your a stupid girl, you cant do this better than me" stuff, makes you feel a lot stronger and proud of yourself.

The only kind of chauvenism i detest and dont want to be around is that old-man chauvenism where women are in the kitchen, barefooted and pregnant. Its ridecoules, and its frustrating to hear cus its not like you can prove the people yapping about it wrong. Like, in chess, you can just beat the guy and then HES the fool, but when its this kind of chauvenism the ONLY thing you can do is hate the person, and remove yourself from his disgusting presence.

Basicly, i think your own attitude can reduce a lot of chauvenism. If you keep a serious face, and dont laugh at yourself when you do something wrong if your new to some male-sport or whatever and just trying to learn it, then the people around you usually will take you serious too, and not be idiots - or well, atleast not to your face.

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Post by arden » Fri Mar 28, 16:48 2003

spacefem wrote:the thing gealach is examining is which gender is treated better when they try to go outside those common occupations. Most women don't chose to be firefighters, but when one does, does she get a hard time about it? She shouldn't. Same with a man who wants to be a nurse or a hairdresser.

The reason that I think this is a big issue is because occupations traditionally held by women are all squat paying jobs, whereas occupations traditionally held by men all pay a decent enough amount of money to provide for a family. In this day and age, when women are providing for some families, or at least themselves, it's more important to them that they're able to break into these worlds. I hate when people make feminism look like a pure money issue, because it's really not, this issue is only a tiny sliver of what feminism is all about. But it's still there.
I remember when I was in high school, and I changed my mind constantly about what I wanted to do after college. I remember telling my mother once that I wanted to be an architect. She said something to the affect that I couldn't do that, because it was a man's job. She went on to say that while not traditionally a woman's role, I wouldn't do very well at it or get very far. She wanted me to do something like become a paralegal. Honestly, at the time, she just didn't want me becoming anything that would move me far away from home. HA!

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Post by Gealach » Fri Mar 28, 20:15 2003

opodgodie wrote:
MFS wrote: umm... I know a guy who does interior design, is married, has 2 kids, and plays drums. There is nothing remotely "gay" about him. Just offering this as a counterpoint.
Something about a straight interior designer is just kind of odd. If I'm going to hire an interior designer, I guess I'd want a gay one. I can see eye to eye with a gay man better than a straight one.
i....*sputter*....go get some help...
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Post by opodgodie » Fri Mar 28, 22:13 2003

Gealach wrote: secondly what the fuck is this about sending "them" to fix roofs yet not armed combat (or that's what i'm assuming u meant when u said they didn't get killed by gun)........discharge them for being gay? aw what if i said u should be discharged (were u to join) because ur straight? what if i said...hey ur not gay, i'm gunna go over and kick ur ass? then how'd u like it huh? it's people like who that make me see the hopelessness of all i wish i could do...
I'm sorry for the post/misunderstanding, and no, I wouldn't like it. It's been recorded in history that since they cannot discharge a man for his sexuality, they send him to do the dangerous work.
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