Feminism for men/Effective activism

Moderators: Enigma, Sonic#

humankinda

Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 20:31 2016

Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by humankinda » Mon Sep 12, 6:39 2016

As a male feminist, I think a good thing I can do is to talk to other men. Has anyone here have any success?

How important is it for men to be feminist?

One of my interests is communication, and since becoming vegan and now a feminist, what interests me is effective activism.

What do you think helps convince people to be a feminist?

I am personally against using academic terminology. I think expressing concepts in a concrete form without any possible baggage of the term could help bypass cognitive bias.

User avatar
Sonic#
member
member
Posts: 5363
Joined: Sat Nov 7, 9:37 2009
Location: Georgia, US

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by Sonic# » Mon Sep 12, 7:37 2016

I think mentorship and role-modeling is a beneficial form of outreach.

For me personally, the goal is not to make someone a feminist but to move people towards doing specific things like thinking about consent, considering how they treat women compared to men in daily life, or providing education about how healthy relationships work. I like efforts focused on specific questions or interests because that gets people directly into some form of action or positive change. Programs focused on problems directly explain their own usefulness and can bring people along who might reject a more abstract discussion of women's rights. Men Stopping Violence is one program local to where I live. A lot of this stuff is local, so ask around.

The academic language has a place. It's good for providing more context on problems that people already recognize, or in developing a better understanding of gender and its many intersections in society.

Taurwen
member
member
Posts: 352
Joined: Sat Jul 2, 9:33 2016

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by Taurwen » Mon Sep 12, 7:41 2016

Personally I think having men feminists is really important, though I know plenty of people disagree. The truth is as a woman there are plenty of spaces I'm not going to be able to get into. Not necessarily physical spaces but the more nebulous "guys time" type thing. I've spent a lot of energy in the last decade talking to my dad about feminism (If not in those words), he works in a factory with a lot of young men and the stories he tells me of changing the mind of the men about this or that and seeing it spread are great, and are absolutely not something I would have been able to do in his place.
I'm also uncomfortable with the idea of keeping someone out just because of their sex, I find sexism pretty insulting no matter if it's misogyny or misandry. Besides, I had a lot (A LOT) of internalised misogyny growing up and it was a boy who finally shot me down and told me what an ass I was being which started my feminist journey.

humankinda

Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 20:31 2016

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by humankinda » Mon Sep 12, 8:18 2016

Sonic# wrote:I think mentorship and role-modeling is a beneficial form of outreach.

For me personally, the goal is not to make someone a feminist but to move people towards doing specific things like thinking about consent, considering how they treat women compared to men in daily life, or providing education about how healthy relationships work...
I like this a lot.

Could you give me an example of a situation where I can do this? I assume there are some situations that are more appropriate than others.

User avatar
Angelica
member
member
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 8:36 2016
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by Angelica » Mon Sep 12, 8:39 2016

humankinda wrote:As a male feminist, I think a good thing I can do is to talk to other men. Has anyone here have any success?
I'm not sure if you're limiting this question to males, but in any case, I've had no success convincing them to be feminists. They seem to mostly consider us "man-haters" and believe that we already have equal rights and are treated equally.
humankinda wrote:How important is it for men to be feminist?
Extremely important.
humankinda wrote:One of my interests is communication, and since becoming vegan and now a feminist, what interests me is effective activism.
I don't personally think veganism is important enough for activism, but effective feminist activism is the key to saving as much of humanity as possible.
humankinda wrote:What do you think helps convince people to be a feminist?
Being female. As far as convincing males, I have no idea, someone please tell me.
humankinda wrote:I am personally against using academic terminology. I think expressing concepts in a concrete form without any possible baggage of the term could help bypass cognitive bias.
Fair enough.

User avatar
rowan
member
member
Posts: 9567
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 11:01 2004
Location: US

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by rowan » Mon Sep 12, 9:11 2016

One thing I've really found helpful in my daily life is for men to call out other men. You don't have to do it in a confrontational way, but an example that really impacted my working group once was when one guy would coopt all my ideas during group discussion of how to handle some issue we were trying to solve. Because it was a group discussion with lots of ideas flying around, he would come back to something I proposed earlier, and then propose it again himself, and then take credit. One of the other guys noticed and started speaking up. He would say something like "Hey, yeah, now that you say that again, I agree. Glad you brought up Rowan's idea again." or "Rowan said that earlier, yeah, good idea". After a couple of times the higher ups in the meetings started to notice, pay more attention to who was actually saying what (and I think maybe actually listen to what I was saying more?) and the guy stopped coopting my work. It completely changed the work dynamic of the group, from more confrontational to more listening in general, which I think benefited the projects a lot.

So while that's not quite answering your question, paying attention to some of the actual issues women face and then combating them in your own spaces can really help, and change dynamics involved. Maybe once you change the dynamics of a toxic environment a little bit then also you can talk about why.
Angelica wrote:
humankinda wrote:As a male feminist, I think a good thing I can do is to talk to other men. Has anyone here have any success?
I'm not sure if you're limiting this question to males, but in any case, I've had no success convincing them to be feminists. They seem to mostly consider us "man-haters" and believe that we already have equal rights and are treated equally.
I generally find men have internalized misogyny, and the best way to combat the "man hater" stereotype is to be someone reasonable when you talk about feminism. However, as you know, you can come across as pretty antagonistic, and some of the things you say do seem kind of man-hating even if you don't mean them that way, so I imagine you're just perpetuating what they think they know about feminists. It's a fine line: I'm against tone policing, but also recognize that there's a lot of baggage that comes with being female in this society.
spacefem wrote:All your logical argue are belong to us!

humankinda

Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 20:31 2016

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by humankinda » Mon Sep 12, 9:48 2016

rowan wrote:One thing I've really found helpful in my daily life is for men to call out other men. You don't have to do it in a confrontational way, but an example that really impacted my working group once...


Thats great they were able to make a difference without direct confrontation. Thats my kind of style.

I have noticed some similar misogyny. When a woman brings up an opinion or idea, some men seem to intentionally miss her point and ignore its value, but I could imagine if it was spoken by a man it would be taken more seriously. I've noticed things like that also from reflecting on my own internalized misogyny.

I guess in this situation I could vocally express how I find her opinion valuable, or ask her questions if she seems to be ignored?

User avatar
Angelica
member
member
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 8:36 2016
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by Angelica » Mon Sep 12, 10:07 2016

rowan wrote:I generally find men have internalized misogyny, and the best way to combat the "man hater" stereotype is to be someone reasonable when you talk about feminism. However, as you know, you can come across as pretty antagonistic, and some of the things you say do seem kind of man-hating even if you don't mean them that way, so I imagine you're just perpetuating what they think they know about feminists. It's a fine line: I'm against tone policing, but also recognize that there's a lot of baggage that comes with being female in this society.
You're right. I apologize. I'll try to be more careful about how I address certain topics. I'm not a hater of males, however I am convinced that they are intellectually inferior and only morally good because of feminine influence. I love feminine males, they're adorable. It's too bad for me that they're almost always gay. Lucky gay people. I find gay people even more feminine than a lot of females. Due to masculine influence, females aren't always good.
humankinda wrote:Thats great they were able to make a difference without direct confrontation. Thats my kind of style.

I have noticed some similar misogyny. When a woman brings up an opinion or idea, some men seem to intentionally miss her point and ignore its value, but I could imagine if it was spoken by a man it would be taken more seriously. I've noticed things like that also from reflecting on my own internalized misogyny.
I tend to take the confrontational approach. Mansplaining really gets me started.
humankinda wrote:
rowan wrote:I guess in this situation I could vocally express how I find her opinion valuable, or ask her questions if she seems to be ignored?
Definitely!

User avatar
rowan
member
member
Posts: 9567
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 11:01 2004
Location: US

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by rowan » Mon Sep 12, 11:23 2016

Angelica wrote:I'm not a hater of males, however I am convinced that they are intellectually inferior and only morally good because of feminine influence.
Yeah, see, that's kind of off-putting if you're trying to get them on your side.
spacefem wrote:All your logical argue are belong to us!

User avatar
Angelica
member
member
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 8:36 2016
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by Angelica » Mon Sep 12, 12:05 2016

What can I do about it since it's what I believe? I can't change what I think just to please them; I'd be lying to myself and everyone else. You might be wondering why I think this. It's because of personal experience with males and knowledge of them from lots of sources (not studies, I mean sources of information about what people have said and done) over my nearly 29 years of life. I've found feminine people to be morally and intellectually superior to masculine people. I consider everyone to have a certain percentage feminine spirit and the rest of the person is masculine spirit. The higher the percentage of femininity, the better the person, no matter her/his gender.

Now, you may ask at this point how I define femininity and masculinity. They're subjective and vague concepts, but I know them when I observe them. I can correctly label behaviors as feminine or masculine. Femininity in my view is dominant, but not physically aggressive. Masculinity uses physical aggression to overpower feminine intellectual dominance.

User avatar
Sonic#
member
member
Posts: 5363
Joined: Sat Nov 7, 9:37 2009
Location: Georgia, US

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by Sonic# » Mon Sep 12, 12:41 2016

Angelica, I suspect much of your trouble is that you're as willing to stereotype other people's gender and sexuality as sexists are willing to stereotype yours and mine.
humankinda wrote:
rowan wrote:One thing I've really found helpful in my daily life is for men to call out other men. You don't have to do it in a confrontational way, but an example that really impacted my working group once...


Thats great they were able to make a difference without direct confrontation. Thats my kind of style.

I have noticed some similar misogyny. When a woman brings up an opinion or idea, some men seem to intentionally miss her point and ignore its value, but I could imagine if it was spoken by a man it would be taken more seriously. I've noticed things like that also from reflecting on my own internalized misogyny.

I guess in this situation I could vocally express how I find her opinion valuable, or ask her questions if she seems to be ignored?
Rowan's example is great because it shows that partly it's about consciously redirecting attention when someone does something sexist. So yes, you could do these things. In a few meetings I've done signal boosting - asking questions of or seconding support for an idea a woman brings up. At one meeting I had to refuse credit being given to me and basically say: "No, that's not my idea, that's [hers or theirs]."

It comes up in more mundane situations though. I've seen trivia teams shut down what women on the team are saying, or otherwise speak over them. I've been in groups that discussed a woman as a slut even though there was a guy in the same group who probably slept with more people in the same period. I find it useful to call that out. It need not be condemning, but like, "Come on, Bob has slept with more people than that and he's not a slut; why are we even calling her that?" and then conversing from there. Be the voice that doesn't let it go without at least acknowledging a double-standard.

Pikachu
member
member
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 9:22 2016

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by Pikachu » Tue Sep 13, 17:28 2016

Men support Christina Hoff Sommers and Liana K's feminism with lots of reason and independent statistics.

As opposed to Laci green and Anita Sarkeesian feminism with it's wild conjectures and shallow analysis.

To support feminism men should dress up in women's fashion! While saying I'm no less a man. :dance2:
Masculinity uses physical aggression to overpower feminine intellectual dominance.
*snort*

haruru
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Aug 1, 1:18 2015
Location: Tokyo Japan
Contact:

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by haruru » Tue Sep 13, 23:47 2016

This is my first post. Nice to meet all of you :)

I find that men speaking up to problematic behavior of other men could be very effective because it is usually a lot of baggage for a woman to speak up who is already enduring everyday oppression to begin with. I've came across men on a couple occasions talking about how feminism is all about man hating and how it damages society, and I have simply pointed out how the default conception of gender and its influence could be extremely woman hating and detrimental to civil society (citing statistics of international total fertility rates, research on correlations of sexual objectification and mental health, the dark figure of sexual assault and so on), they could hardly come up with a reasonable rebuttal. It took me some courage to call someone out, but if you have done some research and have some idea of the kind of arguments an anti-feminist would make, it turned out better than i thought it would.

Relating to this topic, I'm reading a book called "Getting off" by Robert Jensen. It's about the negative effects of pornography which I disagree with some of his stances, but what he writes on men participating in feminist activism has helped me out to come to terms with being aware of my privileges and making sure that I'm not getting in the way of the cause. Check it out if this interests you.

User avatar
Aum
member
member
Posts: 3008
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 23:35 2007
Location: Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by Aum » Wed Sep 14, 4:09 2016

I'm fortunate to live in a progressive city where there's a higher percentage of men on the wavelength of being able to talk about these things. I've seen men call each other out on many occasions, and I've been someone who does that too. Actually the worst recent case of misogyny I saw was woman on woman. I was walking home and a woman of minority race with obvious mental health issues was walking up the street screaming at every white woman, calling them... well, really bad stuff. I saw a lot of male strangers be protective, and make sure the victims knew it wasn't their fault.

I've seen men kick the crap out of other men for putting the moves on drunk women, or for touching women inappropriately. I abhor violence, but just showing the feminist ethic that exists here. There's still all the lovely misogynist crap though. I live in a very feminist part of town and I've seen more than my fair share of misandry too, but it's not as common.

The issue for me is that I don't tend to hang out with low level thinkers who need educational intervention. I might see something on the street or in general public, but among the venues I hang out at and the social circles I run with, misogyny, at least blatantly, does not happen. Most of my friends are gay or queer.
Angelica wrote:What can I do about it since it's what I believe? I can't change what I think just to please them; I'd be lying to myself and everyone else. You might be wondering why I think this. It's because of personal experience with males and knowledge of them from lots of sources (not studies, I mean sources of information about what people have said and done) over my nearly 29 years of life. I've found feminine people to be morally and intellectually superior to masculine people. I consider everyone to have a certain percentage feminine spirit and the rest of the person is masculine spirit. The higher the percentage of femininity, the better the person, no matter her/his gender.

Now, you may ask at this point how I define femininity and masculinity. They're subjective and vague concepts, but I know them when I observe them. I can correctly label behaviors as feminine or masculine. Femininity in my view is dominant, but not physically aggressive. Masculinity uses physical aggression to overpower feminine intellectual dominance.
All that you're doing though is stating a personal preference, also known as providing an anecdote. There's nothing scientific or sociological about your assertions, other than it's a personal belief that you "can't change". A lot of men claim that their "personal experience" with feminism is that it's bra-burning, man-hating, social justice warrior non-sense. That's the double-edged sword of "personal experience"... nobody can tell you that your experience is wrong. But your conclusions may be.

There's also no way to parse your perspective or interpretation. I've met guys who are macho in public but in private spaces they are really gentle, vulnerable and forthcoming. What you see superficially may not indicate true character. Again... patriarchy. It turns people into things they're not.

It just seems so bizarre to me to promote one sex to the preclusion of the other. Humanity obviously needs both, not just reproductively, but sociologically. Your approach is cutting off the nose to spite the face.
The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.

User avatar
Nech
member
member
Posts: 517
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 13:50 2015
Location: Canada

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by Nech » Wed Sep 14, 4:55 2016

humankinda wrote:How important is it for men to be feminist?

One of my interests is communication, and since becoming vegan and now a feminist, what interests me is effective activism.

What do you think helps convince people to be a feminist?

I am personally against using academic terminology. I think expressing concepts in a concrete form without any possible baggage of the term could help bypass cognitive bias.
I think it's definitely important to bring awareness to issues and change the image that certain minorities have created for the Feminist movement. If a person can look at things/topics objectively, I'd argue they are very likely to become or at least consider/not condemn Feminism.

But I'm a fan of adjusting my sales tactic of Feminism for the "audience". Some people don't get the academic side of things so I'll use a more practical or "old-school friendly" approach. Or vice versa.

Though my father is pretty stubborn, so I've been having to use a confused tactic whenever he says stuff that is racist/sexist/LGBT-unfriendly. The other day he was talking about his girlfriends brother (ftm trans) but kept using the female pronouns. So I'd be all "confused" and be like "Wait, Girlfriend did what? I thought her brother did that?" or something along those lines. Only took 2 tries for him to use correct pronouns. But that's a little manipulative so not sure how ethical a tactic that is...
Where there's smoke, there's fire. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. So just shut up, and bring some water.

humankinda

Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 20:31 2016

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by humankinda » Wed Sep 14, 5:49 2016

Nech wrote: Though my father is pretty stubborn, so I've been having to use a confused tactic whenever he says stuff that is racist/sexist/LGBT-unfriendly. The other day he was talking about his girlfriends brother (ftm trans) but kept using the female pronouns. So I'd be all "confused" and be like "Wait, Girlfriend did what? I thought her brother did that?" or something along those lines. Only took 2 tries for him to use correct pronouns. But that's a little manipulative so not sure how ethical a tactic that is...
Sounds like a good tactic to me. I assume most people can handle direct criticism without getting defensive and ignoring what you have to say. I dont know, correct me if I'm wrong because I dont have much experience confronting people.

User avatar
rowan
member
member
Posts: 9567
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 11:01 2004
Location: US

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by rowan » Wed Sep 14, 9:32 2016

Aum wrote:nobody can tell you that your experience is wrong. But your conclusions may be.
This is the best phrasing I've heard ever.
spacefem wrote:All your logical argue are belong to us!

filmmakingally

Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 0:40 2016

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by filmmakingally » Mon Sep 19, 3:26 2016

Sonic# wrote:For me personally, the goal is not to make someone a feminist but to move people towards doing specific things like thinking about consent, considering how they treat women compared to men in daily life, or providing education about how healthy relationships work.
+1

The things I'm doing now, as a feminist, would never have happened if it weren't for the fact that a coworker (woman) kept pointing out to me the fact that I was interrupting women. It took me a while to realize that I actually was doing that. It was a bit of an awakening, me not realizing the sexist behaviors that I had been doing. When I realized that I had been doing that, it got me thinking about other things I might be doing that were messed up, and how I might be able to not just change myself but also affect positive change on other people. And it all started with a coworker expressing frustration about me interrupting her.

So, that particular interaction might not, on the surface, seem applicable to the original question of how a man can help another man become feminist, but I think it does -- it starts with small things. It starts with learning how to recognize that we (American men) have been conditioned to feel superior, even when we don't realize that we're doing that. Like, maybe that dude you want to bring over to our side only needs to hear about why he shouldn't ever say "bitch", even in the confines of a man-only setting.
Sonic# wrote:The academic language has a place. It's good for providing more context on problems that people already recognize, or in developing a better understanding of gender and its many intersections in society.
Definitely. I use it whenever I feel necessary, and I don't dumb anything down for anyone.
rowan wrote:I generally find men have internalized misogyny, and the best way to combat the "man hater" stereotype is to be someone reasonable when you talk about feminism. However, as you know, you can come across as pretty antagonistic, and some of the things you say do seem kind of man-hating even if you don't mean them that way, so I imagine you're just perpetuating what they think they know about feminists. It's a fine line: I'm against tone policing, but also recognize that there's a lot of baggage that comes with being female in this society.
American men definitely have internalized misogyny, I can tell you that from personal experience. And though I appreciate what you're saying about being conscious of trying find the balance between being appropriately confrontational, vs. coming across as a "man-hater", I actually think there is a pretty clear line:
Angelica wrote:I'm not a hater of males, however I am convinced that they are intellectually inferior and only morally good because of feminine influence.
THAT is exactly the attitude that drives men AND women away from feminism. Men are not all the same. I am an individual, and I don't like being told that I'm inferior. I too have feelings. I too have a conscience and have been guided not just by my feminist mother but also by all the male role models in my life, including my feminist step-father.

So, back to the original question -- I'm contemplating becoming one of those weirdos who stands on city street corners, holding politically or religiously motivated signs. They just stand there, hoping people will see their message, and maybe start a conversation.

The idea I had was to make a large sign that is a rainbow-colored drawing of the American flag, with superimposed text, "Smash the Patriarchy".

I'm hesitant to do this because I'm new to the feminist movement, and so I've not done much reading. I kinda just have the knowledge I've gained via conversations with friends. So who the fuck would I be to try and educate people? But then on the flip-side, maybe some of the people who might want to talk to me would be 0% educated on the subject, so at least I'm farther along than they are. And also, maybe some more educated feminists might want to talk to me and educate me. Maybe I could kill two birds with the same stone -- help educating others while also educating myself? Your thoughts?

User avatar
rowan
member
member
Posts: 9567
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 11:01 2004
Location: US

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by rowan » Mon Sep 19, 9:13 2016

filmmakingally wrote:Definitely. I use it whenever I feel necessary, and I don't dumb anything down for anyone.
As an academic, I have to fight myself hard on this, but using everyday language isn't "dumbing things down," it's just another way of expressing things and that's ok. I think that this idea that certain ways of speaking are "better" is very problematic, particularly when it comes to very racist ideas of what's "ok" and what's "not ok". A bit off topic but an important point.


I will also note that Angelica has been banned and does not represent the majority of opinion on this forum.
So, back to the original question -- I'm contemplating becoming one of those weirdos who stands on city street corners, holding politically or religiously motivated signs. They just stand there, hoping people will see their message, and maybe start a conversation.

The idea I had was to make a large sign that is a rainbow-colored drawing of the American flag, with superimposed text, "Smash the Patriarchy".

I'm hesitant to do this because I'm new to the feminist movement, and so I've not done much reading. I kinda just have the knowledge I've gained via conversations with friends. So who the fuck would I be to try and educate people? But then on the flip-side, maybe some of the people who might want to talk to me would be 0% educated on the subject, so at least I'm farther along than they are. And also, maybe some more educated feminists might want to talk to me and educate me. Maybe I could kill two birds with the same stone -- help educating others while also educating myself? Your thoughts?
If I walked past you holding a sign like that chances are I'd give you a thumbs-up but not stop to talk; not sure how many feminists would stop to chat? Maybe that's just introverted me, though.
spacefem wrote:All your logical argue are belong to us!

User avatar
Sonic#
member
member
Posts: 5363
Joined: Sat Nov 7, 9:37 2009
Location: Georgia, US

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by Sonic# » Mon Sep 19, 10:59 2016

There's some merit to sign-standing. I guess I'd ask you what you hope to accomplish with a sign like that. You'll certainly rile people up - some in support, and some decidedly not. You'll probably provoke some good conversation. I imagine that some people would dismiss it, or use it to further a perception that feminism is violent, contrarian, and Other.

Personally I like issue-related displays better, as it at least grounds the general statement in a place of focus. It gives a more tangible thread to follow up in conversation. If people come away disagreeing, they've at least put forth some minimum bit of thought to recognize equal pay, expanded access to women's healthcare, a right to gender expression, or something else. Rather than going it alone, is it possible to find your people, so to speak? If you're living near a city, there are probably protests, activist events, or discussion groups open to you. That's the part I can improve at (introvert too *waves*), but the vigils and protests I have gone to have sparked valuable conversation and provided good models for activism. Effective activism often takes a village.

Otherwise, continuing to learn more is good. I like that there are a number of feminism 101 threads and blogs out there and that they don't all say the same thing. There are also a lot of articles and books out there.

filmmakingally

Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 0:40 2016

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by filmmakingally » Tue Sep 20, 2:00 2016

rowan wrote:If I walked past you holding a sign like that chances are I'd give you a thumbs-up but not stop to talk; not sure how many feminists would stop to chat? Maybe that's just introverted me, though.
Actually, my very inspiration for maybe doing this is the dude whom I walked past who was holding a sign that read, "No Dakota Access Pipeline."

I didn't stop to talk to him, just pointed and said, "right the fuck on, brother."

So perhaps if I start sign-holding, I might not actually get to talk to many other feminists. I guess there's only one way to find out, but to be honest, I'm kinda scared to do it, simply because I worry how people will perceive me.
Sonic# wrote:There's some merit to sign-standing. I guess I'd ask you what you hope to accomplish with a sign like that.
I live in Seattle. This is easily the most liberal city in America. So holding a sign like this for other Seattleites to would be like preaching to the choir.

However, the corner of 1st & Pike gets TONS of foot-traffic, and most of it is tourists. 1st & Pike is right in front of Pike Place Market (the place where they throw the fish), and tourists are constant. A great deal of these tourists are families, with teenagers in tow.

Maybe one of those teenagers is unfamiliar with feminism, and has never heard the phrase, "Smash the Patriarchy". I think most teenagers aren't even familiar with the term "patriarchy".

But they are familiar with hashtags. If I put a hashtag in front of it, maybe they'll whip out their smartphone and do some googling. Maybe. I don't know, I'm still formulating this idea, and like I said earlier, I'll probably wimp out.
Sonic# wrote:Personally I like issue-related displays better, as it at least grounds the general statement in a place of focus. It gives a more tangible thread to follow up in conversation. If people come away disagreeing, they've at least put forth some minimum bit of thought to recognize equal pay, expanded access to women's healthcare, a right to gender expression, or something else. Rather than going it alone, is it possible to find your people, so to speak? If you're living near a city, there are probably protests, activist events, or discussion groups open to you. That's the part I can improve at (introvert too *waves*), but the vigils and protests I have gone to have sparked valuable conversation and provided good models for activism. Effective activism often takes a village.
I'm still considering the sign-holding, and perhaps it might be a good idea for me to make it issue-specific. Thanks for the recommendation! As far as joining a group, for sure, I'm interested in that. My biggest hurdle in doing that right now is that I'm a restaurant worker, so my schedule conflicts with the schedules of the rest of the world. Very few of these events are arranged at times that I can attend. But you're right, I should make an effort to do that.
Sonic# wrote:Otherwise, continuing to learn more is good. I like that there are a number of feminism 101 threads and blogs out there and that they don't all say the same thing. There are also a lot of articles and books out there.
Thanks for the suggestion. Of course I know how to google, but if there are any in particular that you recommend, I'm all ears.

User avatar
rowan
member
member
Posts: 9567
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 11:01 2004
Location: US

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by rowan » Tue Sep 20, 12:18 2016

filmmakingally wrote:I live in Seattle. This is easily the most liberal city in America. So holding a sign like this for other Seattleites to would be like preaching to the choir.
There are some really serious horrible racist things going in Seattle that are worse than other locations that are liberal. Given the area was settled based on explicit white supremacy that's not so surprising. Not that we're perfect here (or anywhere), certainly we are not. But as a friend of mine noted when she went back to the east coast after living in Seattle, PoC in Seattle look grim and frustrated all the time, whereas people elsewhere there's some joy still even if things are hard.

Just sayin' things are not all sun and roses even up here in the North.
spacefem wrote:All your logical argue are belong to us!

filmmakingally

Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 0:40 2016

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by filmmakingally » Wed Sep 21, 4:14 2016

rowan wrote:
filmmakingally wrote:Just sayin' things are not all sun and roses even up here in the North.
Of course not. All I said is that we're probably the most liberal city in America. :)

I think your friend might be a bit naïve to the struggles of ethnic minorities in America. I've spent the last ten years in the South, most of that time living in predominantly black neighborhoods. That doesn't make me an expert on all things black, but it's certainly a more educational experience than that of your friend who spent some time in one of the whitest cities in America (Seattle), and then reported their findings on how they felt ethnic minorities must be living.

I assure you, there's plenty of black people who walk around with grimaces on their faces in the South. That'd be the ones living in poverty. Guess what? White people who live in poverty also walk around with grimaces on their faces.

I live in a neighborhood that has very few white residents. The high school that is two blocks from my home has very few white students. I see many of these students on my commute. I don't see any grimaces on their faces. The local owners and operators of the family-run operations, restaurants, corner-stores, etc, I don't see any grimaces on their faces.

My best guess is that your friend was basing their opinion on their experience in downtown Seattle only. Your friend probably spent most of their time in the neighborhood that they lived in, which was probably very white, and then only encountered ethnic minorities when they went downtown. Downtown is not an accurate representation of the city as a whole, as most people don't frequent downtown. I'll betcha your friend has never hung out in my neighborhood.

filmmakingally

Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 0:40 2016

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by filmmakingally » Wed Sep 21, 4:21 2016

Back to subject, I'm probably going to chicken-out on the solo sign-standing. Maybe better that I find a group who holds rallies and stuff. I'm looking into a career change, so maybe the timing of my political awakening is right on time.

User avatar
Sonic#
member
member
Posts: 5363
Joined: Sat Nov 7, 9:37 2009
Location: Georgia, US

Re: Feminism for men/Effective activism

Post by Sonic# » Wed Sep 21, 5:49 2016

(1) Try not to double post, please.

(2) I understand that you may have wanted to explain your perceptions of race in your area, but did you really have to call rowan's friend naive in order to do so? On the basis of so little information about her friend? Would it be fair to me to say that you don't really know the South, as you don't currently live here, and probably only went into certain neighborhoods which don't represent the general composition of the city?

Locked