How people talk about late-term abortion

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Sonic#
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How people talk about late-term abortion

Post by Sonic# » Thu Oct 20, 8:59 2016

I watched the US presidential debate last night. Besides all of the other noteworthy events, I witnessed two candidates talking about late-term abortion, in reference to Supreme Court nominees and Roe v. Wade.

Trump described late-term abortion as something that happens one, or two, or three days before birth, which struck me as an odd turn of phrase. How can one measure the time before birth, either absolutely (predicting when someone goes into labor is tough) or in specific cases (many late term abortions involve severe fetal abnormalities or other issues where the fetus may be dead or not survivable)?

Then there's the way of describing the fetus as a baby that is ripped out of the womb and torn apart. In contrast, Clinton pointed out that this was a misrepresentation, and tried to address some of the health concerns that women would have. Yet, she held back from more specific examples. I guess partly it would be a matter of tact - not appropriating someone else's particular example when one of the points is that women may have many reasons for undergoing an abortion. Yet it seems like that point is harder to make or understand than going for direct, stark, absolute condemnation of abortion, as Trump did.

Did y'all notice anything similar in this debate or other discussions?

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Re: How people talk about late-term abortion

Post by DarkOne » Thu Oct 20, 10:56 2016

Oh that entire spiel from DT made me cringe. Even if what he meant was 1-4 days before due date, it was still a gross misrepresentation of the procedure and oversimplification of the issue. But I have long stopped expecting logic and common sense from D.

On Clinton's response, I think it was less about not appropriating and particularizing to make a general point, and more about strategy. Abortion is one of the most, if not THE most, emotionally charged topic in national politics in the US. The fewer words you can use to make your point, the lesser the chance you'll misspeak and provide a chance to get misquoted or have statements blow up in your face. I've already seen an article saying 'She...acknowledged, "This is one of the worst possible choices any woman and her family has to make." ' implying that she meant the superlative of "morally bad', as opposed to "emotionally unpleasant", which is what I think she meant. So, yeah. Strategery. I think it was effective. But I'm, ya' know, biased.
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Re: How people talk about late-term abortion

Post by Taurwen » Thu Oct 20, 13:19 2016

I'm not sure it's ever worth talking about abortion really. Either you think it's morally wrong to have one on such a scale that even allowing someone else to have it is abhorrent. The other side has a lot of reasons though. I value bodily autonomy too much to want to restrict abortion, it's purely an ethical standpoint. One might think there are valid reasons to have an abortion and don't want to endanger that by restricting in general (Rape, incest, what-have-you). One might value the life of a person we've already invested in as a society over a life that hasn't been tested. One might think the government has no place in healthcare. One might acknowledge that when abortion access is restricted, women move to back alleys. One might not consider the fetus a baby until birth. One might not consider a baby a person until some other developmental stage (Incidentally my partner hates when I compare our baby to "a real person").
I could go on.
I think Hillary was avoiding stepping into the trap of making women justify their abortion. She technically even misspoke to that by saying late term abortion was often for the woman's health, but she had to say something because "I will uphold Roe v Wade" is too short an answer.

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Re: How people talk about late-term abortion

Post by DarkOne » Thu Oct 20, 14:13 2016

Taurwen wrote:I'm not sure it's ever worth talking about abortion really.
I'm not a fan of taboos or censure and I'm a big fan of intelligent debate. Problem is it's kind of hard to find much of that. Without talking about abortion, we would have never arrived at Roe v. Wade. I think talking about it is important so that people can form fully informed opinions.
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Re: How people talk about late-term abortion

Post by octarineoboe » Thu Oct 20, 14:15 2016

Taurwen, I strongly disagree that it's not worth talking about. We've seen such a huge increase in abortion restrictions since 2010 that it is absolutely relevant, especially with a SCOTUS vacancy (which is a whole other thing I could rant about but I won't for now). If we want abortion to remain legal, we have to talk about it, and I think it's a huge deal that the first female major party presidential nominee is willing to openly defend reproductive rights.

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Re: How people talk about late-term abortion

Post by lillerina » Fri Oct 21, 1:04 2016

Not in this debate, but I have seen late-term abortion referred to as 'partial birth abortion', which seems unnecessarily inflammatory and emotive to me. My best friend is pregnant right now (with a planned and wanted pregnancy, which does make a difference), and having someone close to me going through pregnancy has opened my eyes to the emotional and instinctive reaction of 'but that's a person'. But it's also really, really highlighted how incredibly invasive and uncomfortable pregnancy is, and that nobody could reasonably expect someone to go through with it as a punishment for having sex, which is what abortion bans basically seek to do.
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Re: How people talk about late-term abortion

Post by Taurwen » Fri Oct 21, 18:27 2016

I didn't mean in general, I meant that it wasn't worth it beyond whether a candidate is prolife or prochoice when discussing it in a presidential debate. It's too nuanced a topic to deal with in 20 seconds. Bringing it up just pisses off Trump Supporters with Clinton's flippant attitude towards life, and rational people with Trumps comments on a well known medical procedure.

Of course, now that I've typed that up, I guess every subject is too nuanced to get to the meat of in a presidential debate.

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Re: How people talk about late-term abortion

Post by DarkOne » Fri Oct 21, 21:34 2016

Taurwen wrote:I didn't mean in general, I meant that it wasn't worth it beyond whether a candidate is prolife or prochoice when discussing it in a presidential debate. It's too nuanced a topic to deal with in 20 seconds. Bringing it up just pisses off Trump Supporters with Clinton's flippant attitude towards life, and rational people with Trumps comments on a well known medical procedure.

Of course, now that I've typed that up, I guess every subject is too nuanced to get to the meat of in a presidential debate.
Well, even in that context, especially in that context, I think it definitely benefitted HRC that it was brought up. These debates don't way decided voters; they mostly cater to the undecided, which tend to be a more educated bunch. And any chance to get her opponent to make outrageous claims can only make those undecideds lean left. So I say, keep bringing on those hot topics.
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Re: How people talk about late-term abortion

Post by Alison369 » Wed Nov 2, 23:22 2016

I think abortion is murder. How could someone kill their own child??

You know... I heard of someone who did this 11 times. As means of birth control.
A woman had unprotected sex, and Whenever she got pregnant shed just kill the fetus.
That's freaken sick.

Abortion is NOT a "right" or a "freedom" of women. I'd never be able to do this, unless there was a genetic deformity.
It's basically like legalized-murder, of children who never had a say for their own existence.

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Re: How people talk about late-term abortion

Post by Taurwen » Thu Nov 3, 8:42 2016

That's pretty intense birth control. I got a weird kind of respect for these mythical people who prefer abortions to condoms, pretty hard core.

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Re: How people talk about late-term abortion

Post by rowan » Thu Nov 3, 9:13 2016

a) it's a zygote
b) "I heard of" = something made up
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Re: How people talk about late-term abortion

Post by Aum » Thu Nov 3, 10:40 2016

Trump won't become President... he's a prop. Hillary has been groomed for this for a long time, it's obvious. But anyway...

The late-term abortion discussion, to me, was a bait and switch issue from the real content of how abortion is being affected by reactive conservative law making. The vast majority of abortions take place before the middle of the second term.

But like everything in this election cycle, they're trying to amp up the fear as much as possible to keep people blithely unaware that the outcome of this election was pre-determined a long time ago by the real people running government.
Alison369 wrote:I think abortion is murder. How could someone kill their own child??

You know... I heard of someone who did this 11 times. As means of birth control.
A woman had unprotected sex, and Whenever she got pregnant shed just kill the fetus.
That's freaken sick.

Abortion is NOT a "right" or a "freedom" of women. I'd never be able to do this, unless there was a genetic deformity.
It's basically like legalized-murder, of children who never had a say for their own existence.
We're not talking about "abortion" but "late-term abortion".

And if I had a quarter for every time someone claimed they knew someone who used abortion as primary birth control, I'd be rich.
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