Transwomen and Sports?

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Transwomen and Sports?

Post by Soldier » Fri Dec 2, 2:51 2016

In a perfect world sports would be gender neutral but in reality, that would exclude women from most competitive sports with a few exceptions such as auto racing, horse racing. Even in sports that you'd think there would be no male competitive advantage such as skiing, shooting sports, chess, billiards, and putting men still out perform women.

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This is Fallon Fox and transgender MMA fighter and in spite of having low testosterone she is still strong like a man and her larger hands also give her an advantage over Cis women fighters. A man in combat sports will never have to face that.

Critics are scrutinizing mixed martial arts (MMA) competitor Fallon Fox, after the transgender fighter gave her opponent a concussion and broke her eye socket.

Fox defeated her opponent, Tamikka Brents, by TKO at 2:17 of the first round of their match. Brent’s eye injury resulted in a damaged orbital bone that required seven staples.

In a post-fight interview this week, Brents told Whoa TV, “I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life.”

“I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not, because I’m not a doctor,” she stated. “I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life, and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right. ”

Fox’s “grip was different,” Brents added. “I could usually move around in the clinch against…females but couldn’t move at all in Fox’s clinch.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9XU4QOqVbQ

http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/trans ... -opponent/

It seems to me that M2F athletes would dominate women's sports. What do you think.

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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by garbage videos » Fri Dec 2, 19:43 2016

An individuals stance on Transgenders, in the context of sports, will usually depend on the importance of sports to the individual.

I myself, do not really care about sports, I view it as a futile activity on a dying planet, there are more important issues. And there are other more entertaining pasttimes, such as paintball and videogames.

Since the goal of sports is fun, I would say that adding transgenders to sports would increase the fun of the sports, because people love variety, and people enjoy seeing heroes leading the pack, transgenders would be great dominators.

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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by Soldier » Fri Dec 2, 22:34 2016

garbage videos wrote:An individuals stance on Transgenders, in the context of sports, will usually depend on the importance of sports to the individual.

I myself, do not really care about sports, I view it as a futile activity on a dying planet, there are more important issues. And there are other more entertaining pasttimes, such as paintball and videogames.

Since the goal of sports is fun, I would say that adding transgenders to sports would increase the fun of the sports, because people love variety, and people enjoy seeing heroes leading the pack, transgenders would be great dominators.
Sports in the US is heavily monetized and a lot of people make a living in sports and sports related fields. I think we should apply common sense. If a woman for instance could kick 60 yard field goals and that is in the realm of possibilities I can see her play pro football. I can't see a man or a boy playing women or girls sports though.

We certainly as a species have our priorities quite messed up. While I think there is a place for competition there is a bigger place for cooperation.

I think that maybe trans people are a third gender.

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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by rowan » Fri Dec 2, 22:51 2016

Trans women are women.

Trans men are men.

Full stop.
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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by Sonic# » Sat Dec 3, 7:45 2016

^ Agreed.

The history of sex testing for the Olympics seems to show that verifying for sexes is terrifically flawed because both chromosomal testing and hormonal testing don't really test what we think gender is. They test the presence or absence of individual features that may give false positives. A woman may have a Y chromosome but be perceived as female all of her life due to being insensitive to her own androgyns. A woman may have a higher level of testosterone, but that doesn't make her not a woman. As for hormone (androgyn) testing, that's the current method employed by Olympic committees, but it's terribly flawed: someone can have a lot of androgyns and look like a woman. What they're really testing for is hormonal differences, but that doesn't make much sense since there's no evidence androgyns directly give a performance advantage to elite women in sports.1

I bring all that up because once you say that trans women or trans men shouldn't be in the sports corresponding to their gender, you bring up the issue of verification. Basically, you're telling a sporting committee to determine a rule for gender that excludes trans people but somehow lets all cis people participate in their gender's sports. Whatever rule or rules you end up developing end up being the underlying criteria for participating in a sport rather than gender. Height, muscle mass, bone density, weight, hormones: once someone tries to define gender more precisely than mere social conventions, they create sports that are no longer dividing men and women.

I'd be theoretically okay with rules based purely on a physical parameter, like weight classes in boxing. However, I'm not okay with coming up with those rules exclusively to exclude trans women from women's sports. That seems analogous to gerrymandering, changing the boundaries of gender in order to benefit cis people and exclude trans people.

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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by Pikachu » Sat Dec 3, 9:58 2016

Brent saw her frame and bulk beforehand. Brent saw the transwoman's one sided matches beforehand where she crushed all opposition.

MTF's usually have larger frames and larger frames allows for more muscle. Usually that doesnt matter as the transwoman's muscle is limited by her estrogen dominant hormone profile. But that limit no longer applies considering these fighters are all on steroids.

Brent saw all that and still decided to fight her in a "sport" that allows ground and pound.

It also goes to show how little ingenuity is involved in these matches. It's all the same old crap. Go for the take down ground and pound win. I much prefer boxing. Which brutal as it can be, it at least somewhat civilized. MMA is disgusting.

So don't whine now after you lost.

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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by Ana » Sat Dec 3, 12:47 2016

If transwomen are in average stronger than the other women, then the competition doesn't seem to be fair. Perhaps they could have their own category. But in a competition in which a cis woman fights against a transwoman or even against a man, for argument's sake, perhaps some diferent rules could be created for each fighter, in order to balance the competition.

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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by rowan » Sat Dec 3, 14:58 2016

Ana wrote:If transwomen are in average stronger than the other women
Ahem:
Sonic# wrote:there's no evidence androgyns directly give a performance advantage to elite women in sports.1
There will always be someone who has some kind of random advantage. No one is saying "ban the Russian people who have 8 abs instead of 6 from gymnastics competitions."
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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by Soldier » Sun Dec 4, 5:31 2016

rowan wrote:Trans women are women.

Trans men are men.

Full stop.
Why? Because you said so?

Oregon Resident Legally Recognized As Third Gender - NPR
http://www.npr.org/2016/06/17/482480188 ... ird-gender

Some see themselves as a third gender. Other people see themselves as gender fluid.

What about people who are inter gendered?

Why pigeon hole people with that arbitrary label?

When you cross a male horse and a female donkey you get a Hinny but when you cross a female horse with a donkey you get a mule. The mule is more desirable than the hinny for all practical purposes. The mule has more desirable traits.

Perhaps the transman is more like a hinny and the transwoman is more like the mule? The Hinny is neither or horse or a donkey and the mule is neither a horse or a donkey. The mule is better suited for most tasks than the donkey or the horse. Neither the Hinny or the Mule can reproduce. For what many men want perhaps the transwoman fits the bill better? Reproduction is not a big deal like it was several generations ago. Some men find transwomen more attractive than Cis women. They are more available for sex since they don't get periods. They are socialized in childhood as males so men could find them easier to understand. They are more stable mentally because their hormones are stable like a man's. They don't have menopause.

The trans man cannot impregnate a woman and a lot of women want to get pregnant. A trans man can look virile but since they have a woman's bone structure they may be less suited for certain manly pursuits. They don't really have a penis and women tend to like the feel of a good size penis inside them and the male ejaculation. The fact that transmen tend to be short and have vagina may be a turnoff to a lot of women. They may be able to relate better emotionally with a transman.

Given the above, I think the jury is still out on this one.

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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by Soldier » Sun Dec 4, 5:44 2016

Pikachu wrote:Brent saw her frame and bulk beforehand. Brent saw the transwoman's one sided matches beforehand where she crushed all opposition.

MTF's usually have larger frames and larger frames allows for more muscle. Usually that doesnt matter as the transwoman's muscle is limited by her estrogen dominant hormone profile. But that limit no longer applies considering these fighters are all on steroids.

Brent saw all that and still decided to fight her in a "sport" that allows ground and pound.

It also goes to show how little ingenuity is involved in these matches. It's all the same old crap. Go for the take down ground and pound win. I much prefer boxing. Which brutal as it can be, it at least somewhat civilized. MMA is disgusting.

So don't whine now after you lost.
The men are on roids and Chris Cyborb went from looking like a woman to looking like a dude but I don't think Rhonda Rousey, Holly Holm and Miesha Tate are on anything.

Image

Chris Cyborg's facial bones look very male and her musculature is very manly.

Image

Miesha Tate is very womanly and is Rousey and Holm.

I don't mind seeing the men beat the crap out of each other but I get queasy seeing the women get hurt.

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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by Sonic# » Sun Dec 4, 8:49 2016

Warned for double-posting.
Why pigeon hole people with that arbitrary label?
Alright, let's add a little nuance. Some people do consider themselves transmen and transwomen and therefore men or women. That's what rowan was talking about. Some people identify as a third gender or as intersex. This still doesn't mean you should pigeonhole who they are or their participation in sports.

Your comparison of transpeople to hinnies and mules is both disrespectful and inaccurate. Mules and hinnies are cross-species mixtures; trans people are not of a different species. Men and women are not of a different species. Making such an analogy implies that trans people are less than human, or stock animals primarily valued for their breeding. It's also an insult I've personally encountered, one used to attack people who can't conceive or reproduce. Do you see why that's offensive? Then your specific comparisons make a lot of sweeping generalizations about what transpeople can do and what partners might want. To pick out two points specifically, I don't think everyone is heterosexual; I don't think women are less emotionally stable than men. Also, this:
Soldier wrote:women tend to like the feel of a good size penis inside them and the male ejaculation
Some may, but do you really have enough information that you can say this about all women? Can you say with certainty that trans men can't do this? (I know of a sex toy... ) Generalizing about what women and men prefer is not a solid basis for comparison. That only confirms that there's a great range in what men and women want, and thus (because they *are* men and women) a great range in what transmen and transwomen do and want.

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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by Pikachu » Sun Dec 4, 10:16 2016

Soldier wrote: I get queasy seeing the women get hurt.
I don't, seeing how they choose to be there. However there are steroids female athletes and figure competitors can take that by and large retains their feminine features. I cant remember their names but I know for a fact not all steroids are harsh. But someone who takes the harsh stuff has a big advantage over one who limits themselves to the milder ones.

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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by Meperidine » Sun Dec 4, 11:08 2016

rowan wrote:
There will always be someone who has some kind of random advantage. No one is saying "ban the Russian people who have 8 abs instead of 6 from gymnastics competitions."
This is what my bio professor said. Doesn't make sense to assume estrogen and testosterone are making all the difference in these competitions.
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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by Storage and Disposal » Sun Dec 4, 11:21 2016

Yay! Been awhile since we had a picture thread.
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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by Ana » Sun Dec 4, 16:25 2016

rowan wrote:Ahem:
Sonic# wrote:there's no evidence androgyns directly give a performance advantage to elite women in sports.

There will always be someone who has some kind of random advantage. No one is saying "ban the Russian people who have 8 abs instead of 6 from gymnastics competitions."
Yes, but the differences between women and men are not only about quantities of certain hormones. In average, men are taller and have broader shoulders than women, for example. If a man changes sex, things like height won't change.
Soldier wrote:I don't mind seeing the men beat the crap out of each other but I get queasy seeing the women get hurt.
I don't see a problem in men beating the crap out of each other or women beating the crap out of each other if they do it in a fighting-based sport in which they agreed to be in. But I find it a bit disturbing someone who was once a man fighting a woman.

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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by Meperidine » Sun Dec 4, 17:25 2016

Trans women weren't once men though.
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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by Amuro » Sun Dec 4, 23:29 2016

No you can change your gender but you can't change your sex. So no I don't think somone born a male should be able to compete against someone born a female in competitive sports. If you mean inter-mural sports or just a quick pick up game of basketball or game of baseball between friends on the weekend well that's completely fine because it's just for fun on the weekend. But if you mean organized sports leagues no males are physically stronger than females even if you get the average small male he could still beat the shit out the average female.

I'll give you an easy example I used to work at a grocery store and there was small but young man who came into the store and people thought he was acting suspicious walking around and he had a backpack on. He's about to leave the store without buying anything and one of the managers demands to see his bag he basically ignores her and keeps on walking. She grabbed him he pulls away she grabs him again and he pulls then the third time she grabs him she wont let him go so does a one arm shoulder throw and the manager is on the ground. She was a good 5 inches taller than him and he threw around like it was nothing. (I will also add that security showed up and took him down but they didn't find anything on him)

So no if your born a male then you shouldn't be able to compete with females. This isn't about gender it's about biological sex which is something you can't change.

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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by Soldier » Mon Dec 5, 5:02 2016

Sonic# wrote:Warned for double-posting.
Why pigeon hole people with that arbitrary label?
Alright, let's add a little nuance. Some people do consider themselves transmen and transwomen and therefore men or women. That's what rowan was talking about. Some people identify as a third gender or as intersex. This still doesn't mean you should pigeonhole who they are or their participation in sports.

Your comparison of transpeople to hinnies and mules is both disrespectful and inaccurate. Mules and hinnies are cross-species mixtures; trans people are not of a different species. Men and women are not of a different species. Making such an analogy implies that trans people are less than human, or stock animals primarily valued for their breeding. It's also an insult I've personally encountered, one used to attack people who can't conceive or reproduce. Do you see why that's offensive? Then your specific comparisons make a lot of sweeping generalizations about what transpeople can do and what partners might want. To pick out two points specifically, I don't think everyone is heterosexual; I don't think women are less emotionally stable than men. Also, this:
Soldier wrote:women tend to like the feel of a good size penis inside them and the male ejaculation
Some may, but do you really have enough information that you can say this about all women? Can you say with certainty that trans men can't do this? (I know of a sex toy... ) Generalizing about what women and men prefer is not a solid basis for comparison. That only confirms that there's a great range in what men and women want, and thus (because they *are* men and women) a great range in what transmen and transwomen do and want.
Transwomen have a performance advantage that cis women in the sport consider unfair. Female MMA fighters are in danger same as male MMA fighters when they face a guy who is on steroids. Also, they have heavier hands and mass times acceleration plays a big role. Also, because of bone structure and leverage they will develop more hand speed.

Let's say that you could train a chimpanzee or a gorilla to fight like an MMA fighter. A Chimpanzee is 3 times as strong as a man. The man would be killed.

They were hyping up Ronda Rousey saying she could beat Floyd Mayweather. It was all bull. The problem is Rousey believed it.

Women exhibited about 40 percent less upper-body strength and 33 percent less lower-body strength, on average, And a 2006 study revealed that men had much stronger grips than women — the difference was so big that 90 percent of the women scored lower than 95 percent of the men.

As to generalizing, some things are what they are and women and men in general fit my generalizations. Not all but most. We can put out false narratives and blue pills but that won't change reality. Most women like having a penis in them when they have sex and it's a good thing because if they didn't there would not be babies. Most women I know, prefer the real thing. It may be different with a transwomen because she may have had bottom surgery and if not she may be into anal. Guys love anal sex.

The truth is, size matters to a lot of women and there are biological reasons for why that is true. A lot of women prefer a mate who are taller than them and that also is biological. From an appearance POV facially transmen look very manly but when the rubber hits the road they have some disadvanatages IMO.

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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by rowan » Mon Dec 5, 10:35 2016

Holy shit you are conflating some serious social conditioning into your "natural biology" argument. Eesh.
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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by Meperidine » Mon Dec 5, 13:02 2016

You super can change your sex though.
Last edited by Meperidine on Mon Dec 5, 16:38 2016, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by Sonic# » Mon Dec 5, 15:24 2016

^ Also, there's some semantic difficulty regarding "changing sex." In some cases (particularly with people who could be identified as intersex), it might be more accurate to say that the sex was misassigned at birth by doctors. In other cases, one or more of the features people use to judge sex is being changed, and it feels more like someone is changing to the sex they better fit. In other words, it's not the kind of change where someone is male and decides to be female, but where the initial determination of "male" turns out to not fit that person.

Plus, Amuro, it ought to be evident that when a doctor judges someone's sex at birth, almost everyone is inclined to see that as the baby's gender as well. That attitude is pervasive. So "changing sex" is often about reclaiming one's own gender and sex from a social system that has worked from birth to erase or normalize an incorrect identification. I consider women's sports to be an extended battleground for that fight, one adopted by critics of trans people because of the evident (to them) sex differences present in sports performance.
Soldier wrote: Let's say that you could train a chimpanzee or a gorilla to fight like an MMA fighter.
:/ It's this kind of comparison that's troubling. Before, you were comparing to a mule or a hinny. Now it's a chimpanzee or gorilla. Even if you don't intend it, the undercurrent of these comparisons is that trans people constitute a different species, either in their identity or ability. Rather than resorting to hyperbole via metaphor, why don't you address the actual abilities of current people in sports? I don't like MMA fighting that much, but it seems premature to pronounce that Fallon Fox has a strict advantage, when her record is roughly equivalent to the one fighter to beat her in a major fight, Ashlee Evans-Smith (5-1 each). With a sample size of 1, it seems fair to say that Fallon Fox is a good women's MMA fighter, but that like every other fighter in her weight and gender division, she's beatable.

Again, if you're concerned about the relative strength of participants, then I'm fine with (say) using body mass indexes as a supplemental class measure. However, if you design those measures intentionally to keep transpeople out of sports, then that's no longer focused on actual bodily differences but on your conceptions of gender and sex. That's making physical evidence bow to your own qualms and presumptions about gender (like not wanting to see a woman hit, or not believing a transwoman is a woman).

And yes, you're continuing to generalize about what women and men like. It doesn't seem to be supporting your points about participation in sports.

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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by Soldier » Fri Dec 9, 3:06 2016

Sonic# wrote:^ Also, there's some semantic difficulty regarding "changing sex." In some cases (particularly with people who could be identified as intersex), it might be more accurate to say that the sex was misassigned at birth by doctors. In other cases, one or more of the features people use to judge sex is being changed, and it feels more like someone is changing to the sex they better fit. In other words, it's not the kind of change where someone is male and decides to be female, but where the initial determination of "male" turns out to not fit that person.

Plus, Amuro, it ought to be evident that when a doctor judges someone's sex at birth, almost everyone is inclined to see that as the baby's gender as well. That attitude is pervasive. So "changing sex" is often about reclaiming one's own gender and sex from a social system that has worked from birth to erase or normalize an incorrect identification. I consider women's sports to be an extended battleground for that fight, one adopted by critics of trans people because of the evident (to them) sex differences present in sports performance.
Soldier wrote: Let's say that you could train a chimpanzee or a gorilla to fight like an MMA fighter.
:/ It's this kind of comparison that's troubling. Before, you were comparing to a mule or a hinny. Now it's a chimpanzee or gorilla. Even if you don't intend it, the undercurrent of these comparisons is that trans people constitute a different species, either in their identity or ability. Rather than resorting to hyperbole via metaphor, why don't you address the actual abilities of current people in sports? I don't like MMA fighting that much, but it seems premature to pronounce that Fallon Fox has a strict advantage, when her record is roughly equivalent to the one fighter to beat her in a major fight, Ashlee Evans-Smith (5-1 each). With a sample size of 1, it seems fair to say that Fallon Fox is a good women's MMA fighter, but that like every other fighter in her weight and gender division, she's beatable.

Again, if you're concerned about the relative strength of participants, then I'm fine with (say) using body mass indexes as a supplemental class measure. However, if you design those measures intentionally to keep transpeople out of sports, then that's no longer focused on actual bodily differences but on your conceptions of gender and sex. That's making physical evidence bow to your own qualms and presumptions about gender (like not wanting to see a woman hit, or not believing a transwoman is a woman).

And yes, you're continuing to generalize about what women and men like. It doesn't seem to be supporting your points about participation in sports.
Like a gorilla we humans are bioligical beings. The male homo sapien is very different physically than the female homo sapien. When gender resassignment happen the transfemale retain a lot of those male characteristics.

My conceptions of geneder and sex? I'm talking reality and hard science and not theory or wishful thinking.

This is about having an even playing field for women. Gender reassignment puts trans women at a disadvantage for them to compete with men but they still have a significant advantage over women in competitive sports.

I don't like seeing anyone hit outside of sports. If women want to compete in combat sports that is their perogative. Man sized hands deliver more ft/lbs of force. That puts women at greater danger and there is more bone density in the male skelaton. The bones in a man's face and head can endure more punishment than a woman's. The injuries fighters got from Fallon Fox were very serious and who knows if Fallon was striking at full force?

There is a debate as to whether and man should retaliate if a woman starts hitting on him. What do you think? I think that if he is unable to retrain her and if he is in fear of bodily harm he should punch back. My sister broke her husband's jaw because he was ignoring her. He put her on floor and retrained her until she chilled. She was drunk. She called me up and played the victim until I got the whole story from her.

Caitlin Jenner is a live long avid golfer. I really doubt if Caitlin's scores are much different than Bruce's.

Image

Look at the size of those hands!

Mike Austin holds the world record for the longest drive in professional play, driving 515 yards!

The biggest hitter in women's golf is Michele Wie and she can hit a little over 300 yards and she's 6'1".

XY muscle behaves differently than XX muscle. Women's muscles are about 1/2 as strong as men's on average. Men's brains have a much faster reaction time. Males have faster reaction times than women on average, based on testing at University of Colorado Boulder, as of 2015. Men had faster response times than women in experiments involving reactions to light and sounds. The results were consistent with the majority of reaction time studies.

In the study, men detected light at a mean average of .501 seconds, while women detected it at .9151 seconds. In sound trials, men detected noise at .39725 seconds, while women detected it at .5685 seconds. Researchers hypothesize that men generally have faster reaction times than women due to differences in societal roles throughout human history.

You can accept or deny the science but that won't change it. Therefore, based on the science and observations of female fighters transwomen have an unfair advantage over women. The male muscle and neuroresponse is different in men than women. Estrogen won't change that. Estrogen won't change their bones.

Then there non-op transgender. Testicles produce testosterone which is also a performance enhancer. Will there be some cut off point based on androgen levels?

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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by rowan » Fri Dec 9, 11:05 2016

Soldier seems really misinformed about trans* people.

Also: androgen levels do not indicate performance.

Even Soldier states: "Researchers hypothesize that men generally have faster reaction times than women due to differences in societal roles throughout human history. "
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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by Sonic# » Fri Dec 9, 11:24 2016

^ After you pointed that out, I looked up the sentence. That answer was copy and pasted from a Reference.com question. I found it rather odd that he was citing studies but not linking to them:
This ain't an academic essay, so I'm cool with drawing on sources, but copy and pasting someone else's summarization of a source that went unread seems sloppy. As you point out rowan, he missed facts that didn't fit his existing opinion.

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Re: Transwomen and Sports?

Post by Meperidine » Thu Dec 15, 13:48 2016

Stumbled on an article today about this.

Lots of relevant points in here, but of particular interest is the fact that a trans woman's hormone replacement therapy regimen--which the Olympic committee requires trans women athletes to have undergone for a year or more before they can compete as women--includes testosterone blockers that are so effective that trans women on HRT often have lower testosterone levels than cis women.
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