Special Event for Women discriminatory?

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Unvoiced_Apollo
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Special Event for Women discriminatory?

Post by Unvoiced_Apollo » Thu Jun 1, 6:41 2017

Some men seem to think so:

http://movieweb.com/wonder-woman-all-fe ... le-uproar/

http://movieweb.com/last-jedi-male-only ... executive/

The two links above are how some men are reacting negatively to a Women's only screening of Wonder Woman. They make claims that there would be a problem if a male only screening were offered.

But, that would only be a problem if it was the only type of screening. In this case, this is a special charity event that is taking advantage of the subculture among women, which is different from the subculture among men. It does not interfere with general admission screenings and it isn't even on or before the premiere weekend. It's in the middle of the week, in which most people do not go to see movies. As the charity screenings have mostly sold out, which tells me it's good business sense since the theater will likely get a lot of money from concessions/food customers buy (Alamo has a full dinner menu and bar).

What do you think of such an event? Could a male only screening be just as successful? My main issue with those now asking for such a screening aren't interested in charity. They're just miffed they're not getting something women are getting. And, due to the difference in the male subculture, I really don't see the demand for an all male screening. It just boggles me that this is the "discrimination" They fight against.

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Re: Special Event for Women discriminatory?

Post by Sonic# » Thu Jun 1, 12:57 2017

I think it's a nontroversy because it's a special event that otherwise doesn't interfere with the availability of showtimes even in *that* theater. If it weren't for a few men initially clamoring about it and internet news media then reporting on that, it'd be a non-issue.

Further, it's a nontroversy where everyone concerned got something out of it. The men complaining fed the chip on their shoulder about double-standards and self-validated their impression that they're the victims here, some feminists pointed out the more substantial double-standard that no women are in a Congressional group that will determine how the AHCA will handle women's healthcare, and the Alamo got free and fairly positive national coverage for its brand.

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Re: Special Event for Women discriminatory?

Post by DarkOne » Thu Jun 1, 12:59 2017

It feels unnecessary. There's a time and a place where women-only spaces are appropriate or even necessary to provide support and safety. Maybe this is my privilege talking, but a screening for a Wonder Woman movie hardly warrants this type of safety net. Yes, women-only spaces are absolutely discriminatory, but they are justified if they provide a marginalized population with a benefit, service or advantage they have been denied because of their marginal status. I just don't see the greater benefit in enforcing the exclusivity in this particular case. So meh.

I think public events should be equally accessible. I didn't link-surf, so didn't see any details about it being a benefit or a charity event. If this is a private event in a public place of business, then it's gray area.

Also, I don't think "because it makes business sense" is a enough justification for doing or not doing something. It makes business sense to deny free basic medical services to people who can't afford to pay for them -- that doesn't mean we should run with that...
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Re: Special Event for Women discriminatory?

Post by rowan » Thu Jun 1, 13:10 2017

You think that my watching Wonder Woman without being surrounded by a bunch of dudes doesn't qualify as "support"?

I would totally go to a women-only screening. I thought it was a bar though, I was super excited about there being beer (and a bit bummed it wasn't local).
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Re: Special Event for Women discriminatory?

Post by DarkOne » Thu Jun 1, 13:36 2017

Sure, it's support, but I think we'd still be alright and nearly as safe if we *had* to watch Wonder Woman next to the dudes.

And there IS booze... It's one of those theaters with a food and drinks a menu where they bring it to your seat.
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Re: Special Event for Women discriminatory?

Post by Unvoiced_Apollo » Thu Jun 1, 13:43 2017

DarkOne wrote:It feels unnecessary. There's a time and a place where women-only spaces are appropriate or even necessary to provide support and safety. Maybe this is my privilege talking, but a screening for a Wonder Woman movie hardly warrants this type of safety net. Yes, women-only spaces are absolutely discriminatory, but they are justified if they provide a marginalized population with a benefit, service or advantage they have been denied because of their marginal status. I just don't see the greater benefit in enforcing the exclusivity in this particular case. So meh.

I think public events should be equally accessible. I didn't link-surf, so didn't see any details about it being a benefit or a charity event. If this is a private event in a public place of business, then it's gray area.

Also, I don't think "because it makes business sense" is a enough justification for doing or not doing something. It makes business sense to deny free basic medical services to people who can't afford to pay for them -- that doesn't mean we should run with that...
I'm noticing a couple of false equivalencies. Alamo isn't offering a women only space. That would imply that the theater is allowing only women to watch the movie at all the screenings. This is a charity event geared toward women offering a single screening on a single night.

And I'm not talking about aan entire industry or businesd.withholding lifesaving medicine or treatment. I'm talking about a business that recognizes a subcultural aspect. It's no different from a ladies night.

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Re: Special Event for Women discriminatory?

Post by Sonic# » Thu Jun 1, 15:23 2017

This is a charity event
I may have missed something in the news coverage. How is it a charity event? I didn't see any mention of charities or raising money for a particular cause.

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Re: Special Event for Women discriminatory?

Post by DarkOne » Thu Jun 1, 18:31 2017

Unvoiced_Apollo wrote: I'm noticing a couple of false equivalencies. Alamo isn't offering a women only space. That would imply that the theater is allowing only women to watch the movie at all the screenings. This is a charity event geared toward women offering a single screening on a single night.

I disagree. Those theaters during those screenings will be the very definition of a women-only space.
Unvoiced_Apollo wrote: And I'm not talking about aan entire industry or businesd.withholding lifesaving medicine or treatment. I'm talking about a business that recognizes a subcultural aspect. It's no different from a ladies night.
Disagree again. It still holds true that the "because we will make a profit" is not a good counter-argument when the issue raised is that the event is discriminatory. And it IS different from ladies night. Every single ladies night I've ever been to allowed everyone in. Some just didn't get the discount. This event has an explicit "No men allowed" in their released statement. Big difference. You can organize a women-friendly event and easily get a majority/totality female attendance without being exclusionary. The Society of Women Engineers events are a good example. Ladies Nights would be another.
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Re: Special Event for Women discriminatory?

Post by Unvoiced_Apollo » Thu Jun 1, 21:10 2017

Sonic# wrote:
This is a charity event
I may have missed something in the news coverage. How is it a charity event? I didn't see any mention of charities or raising money for a particular cause.
My mistake. Only a few theaters are giving proceeds to local women's charities:

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/26/women-on ... proar.html
DarkOne wrote:I disagree. Those theaters during those screenings will be the very definition of a women-only space.
But not for the purposes of a safety net
DarkOne wrote:Disagree again. It still holds true that the "because we will make a profit" is not a good counter-argument when the issue raised is that the event is discriminatory. And it IS different from ladies night. Every single ladies night I've ever been to allowed everyone in. Some just didn't get the discount. This event has an explicit "No men allowed" in their released statement. Big difference. You can organize a women-friendly event and easily get a majority/totality female attendance without being exclusionary. The Society of Women Engineers events are a good example. Ladies Nights would be another.
But my argument isn't that "we will make a profit". My argument is "we will draw additional customers to make more profit". You don't gain more customers by not offering medical treatment.

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Re: Special Event for Women discriminatory?

Post by Amuro » Sat Jun 3, 22:09 2017

Yeah I think this is discrimination it doesn't matter that there other screenings for men or that are open to everyone wouldn't that be separate but equal. All in all I just think this a stupid dumb idea and I can't think of any reason why a non white person would go. If your white go ahead and go but if you are non white why would you go to a place where everyone isn't welcome or allowed to or participate in separate but equal.

I've been living abroad for a few years someone invited me but to their church they seemed like a nice person. But the law in the country I live says that foreigners cannot proselytize and people can only worship in state church's so this is not a state church that I was being invited to. The government allows this non state church to exist as long as only foreigners go to this church no citizens. So I can't comfortably got to this church or anywhere where most people aren't welcome.

For me even participating in anything like this would leave a bad taste in my mouth. My grandparents and even my father lived under Jim Crow laws so I won't touch this with a fifty foot pole.

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Re: Special Event for Women discriminatory?

Post by Unvoiced_Apollo » Sun Jun 4, 3:30 2017

Amuro wrote:Yeah I think this is discrimination it doesn't matter that there other screenings for men or that are open to everyone wouldn't that be separate but equal. All in all I just think this a stupid dumb idea and I can't think of any reason why a non white person would go. If your white go ahead and go but if you are non white why would you go to a place where everyone isn't welcome or allowed to or participate in separate but equal.

I've been living abroad for a few years someone invited me but to their church they seemed like a nice person. But the law in the country I live says that foreigners cannot proselytize and people can only worship in state church's so this is not a state church that I was being invited to. The government allows this non state church to exist as long as only foreigners go to this church no citizens. So I can't comfortably got to this church or anywhere where most people aren't welcome.

For me even participating in anything like this would leave a bad taste in my mouth. My grandparents and even my father lived under Jim Crow laws so I won't touch this with a fifty foot pole.
I would argue separate but equal would be for example having 10 screenings, 5 that are men only and 5 that are women only.

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Re: Special Event for Women discriminatory?

Post by Sonic# » Sun Jun 4, 8:33 2017

I just ran across an example of what would cross the line between, "Hey, this is a private event that doesn't put a burden on filmgoers" and "we're trying to impose an unreasonable burden on people": bars in one Georgia town are currently under litigation for adopting policies that systematically exclude black people. Under the guises of "private events," dress codes, and anything else they can get away with, these bars do everything they can to discourage black clientele. Policies like these make the downtown nightlife of many towns favorable to racist white people.

I don't think the theater events qualify as a similarly serious kind of racism and sexism for a few reasons:
1. It doesn't reinforce an existing system of segregation against men. There's no history of white men being harmed or isolated by events like this. Nor is there a large population of people who wish that men were absent from "their" theaters and public spaces. That is why a women's-only event is NBD but, say, a white people-only event is a serious discriminatory issue.
2. As an event, it's been publicly declared a couple of weeks in advance and is limited to a couple of screenings, rather than being used as an ad hoc excuse that is made up at the time to exclude people. That signals at least a big of good will on the part of the organizers - they don't want to inconvenience theater-goers.
3. Jim Crow imposed stiff penalties on people who violated segregationalist policies, and it was often used as a pretense to feed a large penal labor industry, which was fed by the same populations that had been enslaved in similar conditions a generation before. In comparison, a man who tried to enter this event (in a confined date and time) would be politely asked to leave. If he caused a scene, the only legal charges would be under whatever he immediately did - public nuisance, maybe, or assault if he attacked anyone. That's not Jim Crow.
But my argument isn't that "we will make a profit". My argument is "we will draw additional customers to make more profit". You don't gain more customers by not offering medical treatment.
That seems to split hairs with what DarkOne is saying. Whether it's drawing additional customers or making a profit, I read her point as addressing how the soundness of a business decision was being used to justify excluding men. If something is discriminatory, "But it draws customers," "but it makes a profit," or any other business-related justification isn't relevant to the question of discrimination.

DarkOne, I agree that the Society of Women Engineers or a Ladies Night might be a better model for handling this kind of event. I just don't think this event qualifies as discriminatory because it lacks a systemic or broader cultural context. Nor do I see it as a safe space, except perhaps incidentally.

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Re: Special Event for Women discriminatory?

Post by lexiewalt » Mon Jun 26, 3:56 2017

Well I'm glad that, for people here, a women-only screening of "Wonder Woman" is their greatest annoyance!!

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Re: Special Event for Women discriminatory?

Post by Unvoiced_Apollo » Mon Jul 3, 8:23 2017

lexiewalt wrote:Well I'm glad that, for people here, a women-only screening of "Wonder Woman" is their greatest annoyance!!

Someone has to talk about the big issues.

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Re: Special Event for Women discriminatory?

Post by MrWonka » Mon Jul 17, 9:16 2017

Unvoiced_Apollo wrote: What do you think of such an event? Could a male only screening be just as successful?
You have to really understand context here. Given what so many women have to deal with in terms of men, harassment, and intimidation I don't see any thing wrong with giving women some opportunities to enjoy certain things knowing they don't have to deal with men. It isn't like this is some super special privilege that women are getting here that men aren't.

A male only screening would be more problematic because you have to ask yourself what problems to men really face from women in public that would really necessitate it? Privilege would really be the only excuse for it.

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Re: Special Event for Women discriminatory?

Post by geldofc » Fri Jul 21, 3:38 2017

MrWonka wrote: You have to really understand context here. Given what so many women have to deal with in terms of men, harassment, and intimidation I don't see any thing wrong with giving women some opportunities to enjoy certain things knowing they don't have to deal with men. It isn't like this is some super special privilege that women are getting here that men aren't.

A male only screening would be more problematic because you have to ask yourself what problems to men really face from women in public that would really necessitate it? Privilege would really be the only excuse for it.
agreed.
a male only event could be just as successful. i don't see the point in it though.
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Re: Special Event for Women discriminatory?

Post by Keen » Wed Jul 26, 13:31 2017

Well, let's look at it that way "BREAKING NEWS: Men only screening of superman?!!??!" Do you have any idea how many people would threaten to burn down the place just because it doesn't allow girls? Thousands.

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Re: Special Event for Women discriminatory?

Post by Sonic# » Wed Jul 26, 19:15 2017

"BREAKING NEWS: Men only screening of superman?!!??!"

Wow, news channels sure use a lot of punctuation these days.

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Re: Special Event for Women discriminatory?

Post by Keen » Thu Jul 27, 7:46 2017

Lol just like you to avoid the point of it, it is discriminatory because it's not allowing a certain sex in because of that ding a ling between their legs, that is discriminatory

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Re: Special Event for Women discriminatory?

Post by Sonic# » Thu Jul 27, 8:18 2017

If you're going to make up events that haven't happened to make unsupportable guesses about how people will respond, you could at least make it seem like a credible hypothetical event.

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Re: Special Event for Women discriminatory?

Post by Keen » Thu Jul 27, 8:58 2017

How about don't throw around big words to make yourself feel better. It doesn't make you any less wrong.

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