Rape culture doesn't exist

Moderators: Enigma, Sonic#

Skeezy

Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Jun 9, 12:05 2017

Re: Rape culture doesn't exist

Post by Skeezy » Thu Aug 10, 12:25 2017

This was the most legit site I could find on it. Apparently the story is old as hell but, still trolls the internet. Dude got no sympathy which I think is pretty messed up. Theres a bunch if sites that talk about it the most recent one I saw was from 2014. He tried to file a lawsuit but it was dismissed.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7024930/ns/he ... ps-giving/

Its one thing to steal but, to steal, hide a paternal kid, then file for money based on your deception and win. Apparently men don't get to give consent and they consider it a tranfer of ownership but the guy was still responsible for child support for the next 16 years and probably back child support as well. Gotta love those courts. $800 a month for a few minutes of oral sex...makes me cringe.

I heard about the case through a friend that is very anti feminist. Hes been looking at a lot of m.g.t.o.w. which is a anti feminist movement thats slowly growing although nowhere near a real group yet. I find it too extreme as far as I understand it

This kind of thing happens a lot though. Ive heard of women poking holes in condoms and even of a few men who have as well. To me when that kind of thing is known the rules change a bit. You want the kid to be supported but there really are some s****y people out there.

User avatar
melsbells
member
member
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 6:45 2014
Location: Finland

Re: Rape culture doesn't exist

Post by melsbells » Thu Aug 10, 13:22 2017

I had a similar first reaction as Nech, thinking that giving the environmental factors around oral sex, keeping semen vital for impregnation would be nearly impossible. Then I remembered about the use condoms or dental dams during oral sex (hey everyone, do this to protect yourself! they even make flavored condoms). So assuming this story is true, it is traumatic, but I'm not sure what Skeezy's point is in bringing it up. It supports rape culture as a explanation. The rape victim isn't believed. Past sexual history is taken into account. One instance of consent is taken as an ability to disregard future need for consent. It even has the idea that men can't be raped. So when presenting a situation that isn't always legally considered rape (lying about a situation that a person would not otherwise consent), how does that support rape culture doesn't exist, as opposed to our culture supports rape in such a weird way that this isn't even legal rape everywhere, let alone access and inevitability? Like most rape cases, it's hard to prove that consent wasn't given, that they didn't have unprotected consensual vaginal intercourse, since the culture is such that the victim is put on trial.

Skeezy

Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Jun 9, 12:05 2017

Re: Rape culture doesn't exist

Post by Skeezy » Thu Aug 10, 14:21 2017

Oh I believe rape culture exists. There are many different forms of rape. Some paid more attention to than others. If you considered the unsolicited use of a mans sperm as rape as well them rape culture is very broad.

Prison homosexual rapes can be considered a culture. Almost everyone knows the phrase, "Dont drop the soap."

Theres the aforementioned holes in condoms and things of that nature.

Standard rapes which happen all over the globe and have since probably the beginning of life earth.

Blackmail from a higher authority. Police officers, bosses, wealthy etc. Happens all the time.



Rape is actually part of society and as long as humanss have chemicals in the body that affect the brain and its rationality. Rape is part of all culture therefore rape culture does is exist.

User avatar
melsbells
member
member
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 6:45 2014
Location: Finland

Re: Rape culture doesn't exist

Post by melsbells » Thu Aug 10, 14:28 2017

^Sorry, I was reading your first post in this thread as in support of the OP, but with a more nuanced view.

Skeezy

Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Jun 9, 12:05 2017

Re: Rape culture doesn't exist

Post by Skeezy » Thu Aug 10, 16:16 2017

@meisbells
Its Ok, I didn't make it very clear which side I was on.

@topic
The worst rape culture is pedophilia. Someone showed me a video of a 18-25 year young male and admitted pedophile trying to justify pedophilia. I rarely get disgusted to the point where I physically want to do harm to someone but yeah.. The mode of thinking itself is scarey and whats worse deep down you know he is not alone.

Lol why is it everytime a business man gets caught doing something illegal, when they go through the computer they always find pictures of underage kids? Im mean its like almost a perfect record.

I myself could possibly rape someone unknowingly, if I were to fall asleep next to them. I have had multiple occurences of sexsomnia which if your not familar with it is to unknowlingly have sex while sleeping. From what I hear, I can be pretty aggressive, much more so than when I am awake. Woke up in the middle of it one time and the amazing thing was the position, I was not laying down i was on my knees upright. Scared me a bit and my wife says Im not allowed to sleep next to anyone else lol. Hasn't happened for a while though and I wouldn't believe it was real unless I experienced it which I did. At the time when it was occuring, my wife and I weren't having sex much. I attribute it to my subconscious taking over.

So you can imagine why rapes occur knowingly when someone has high hormones and a weak mind. I don't condone it but I understand the nature of it runs deep into human psyche. With as varied as people are, you know some people embrace that nature which can be classified as rape culture.

User avatar
Jackninja5

Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Sep 8, 22:03 2017
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Rape culture doesn't exist

Post by Jackninja5 » Fri Sep 15, 18:25 2017

Rape culture should not exist. It's disgusting when people try to make such a horrific action culture.
That's why we won't back down
We won't run and hide
'Cause these are the things we can't deny
I'm passing over you like a satellite
So catch me if I fall
That's why you stick to your game plans and party lives
But at night we're conspiring by candlelight
We are the orphans of the American dreams
Oh shine your light on me

tomokun
member
member
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Apr 5, 10:18 2013

Re: Rape culture doesn't exist

Post by tomokun » Thu Sep 21, 13:29 2017

I have always had a problem with this term because in so many ways it's just so damn useless for its purpose. However, I tend to stay away from this topic now because of folks like the OP have an excellent way of framing what I think is an interesting and nuanced conversation about a concept as a dog whistle for MRA hijinx.

So thanks for that OP. :p.

But, since the topic has been broached, I might as well dive in.

Before I get onto my soap-box on this though, its probably important to frame what I'm about to say.

Nothing I say is designed to silence, minimize the horrendous statistics about rape, minimize the impact that sexual assault can have on victims, or in any way diminish the role that concent should play in sex. Especially in terms of consent - once you can acknowledge that it's possible to have tacit consent (communication through body language), then saying that consent "ruins" sex is crazy. The idea that consent MUST be some sort of formal, verbal exchange is one of those hyperbolic arguments that too narrowly boxes in a concept. Yes, if you suck at picking up non-verbal communication, maybe you need a contract. But for the most part, as long as you aren't an overbearing asshat enthusiastic consent requires more listening than talking.

But, back to, what is essentially my beef with a phrase and concept, and not necessarily the principles its founded on.

I've read all over about rape-culture, and every single definition I've come across seems to say the same thing. Rape Culture is the "normalization" of rape as a reasonable consequence of being alive.

This can happen. Outside of the US certainly, in places that are essentially war zones, countries where women are directly punished for being rape (such as in places with Sharia law), but even in countries with Sharia Law, if a rapist is also punished, I find it impossible to argue that rape is considered "normal" or a "reasonable consequence of being alive". Punishments and laws reflect what is "normal". Granted, there are always exceptions to the rule. Likely 70% or more of the population speeds, so breaking speeding laws is "normal". But rape itself is a crime, defined and codified by our laws, based on our values as a society.

Clearly then, any country which has defined and outlawed rape cannot be said to think that rape is a normal consequence of life.

Now, if the problem is with how rape is defined, that's not cultural. That's philosophical/practical. It's a result of grey areas or circumstances that require a great deal of nuance (e.g. if both parties are drunk, which person is the rapist?). So there are good, non-cultural reasons why rape may legally be inadequately defined, but that in and of itself isn't evidence of rape culture because definitions outside of legal contexts are not only more fluid, but more personal.

So to say that, at least in the US, that we live in "rape culture" is at best hyperbolic. Culturally we consider rape abnormal, anti-social, and arguably a crime worse than murder. If you want someone to be hated in a film, they kill an innocent. If you want someone to be reviled, and have an audience cheer their death, you make them a rapist. The more innocent the victim, the worse the person is.

Granted, we might disagree about what rape is - but we know that if someone meets that criteria they deserve death and worse. Perhaps even more importantly though, not all sexual assault is rape, right? But we don't call it "sexual assault culture", its called rape culture. SAC Culture would make sense... but that's not the term that's used.

But wait you misogynistic pig, the denial of rape is evidence of rape culture!

Is it though?

We have the same issue with Con Artists.

Even with the FTC and clearly defined laws specifying various TYPES of confidence schemes, these crimes still occur with an alarming frequency. The Internet has resulted in new ways of committing old crimes, and certainly, sexual assault is no exception. But we don't say that we live in Scam Culture, and we don't call out for every victim of an alleged scam to be believed. We do codify these new variations of crimes into law though. It's now illegal in some states/countries to post "revenge porn". Likewise "Free Plus Shipping" offers are more tightly regulated, and even the FBI has an online form for reporting "Nigerian Princes" in need of your US bank account.

And yet, victim blaming is rampant - no trigger warning, just a link about victim blaming victims of phishing scams: https://www.lifehacker.com.au/2016/11/w ... ing-scams/

This is a pattern of behavior not exclusive to victims of sexual assault, but rather common to victims of any crime whose best evidence is the testimony from the victim. Some of this is absolutely sexism "why was she dressed that way", but just as much of it can be chalked up to everyday skepticism or reasonable incredulity "how do we know they didn't consent (to the transfer of funds/to sex)", "its one person's word against the other".

I don't think any of what I have said is sexist or dismissive, or extreme one way or the other. It's certainly dispassionate, because I'm talking about a concept, and I'm not talking about people's experiences. However, even if the concept of Rape Culture was specific to the lived experiences of rape victims, that's not the way the term is presented. It's presented as an explanation for why we have a rape epidemic around the globe, but also just in the US (and other developed nations). And this is where I take the most umbrage with the term - that inaccurately frames the problem in such a way that the solution is entirely dependent on the glacially slow cultural shift towards the near-universal adoption of feminism.

Now, I'm not so foolish as to imply that culture, attitudes towards women, issues of bodily autonomy, ridiculous objections to enthusiastic consent don't play their part. Again, I'm not denying any of the facts which comprise the rationale behind the concept. What I am doing is pointing out that there are far more variables than are being credited by "Rape Culture", and that it seems likely to me that those excluded variables not only have a bigger impact on most our rape statistics, they also provide insights on how we might reduce the number of incidents of this horrible crime occurring.

For a brief example in this now overlong post, I would highlight the difficulty of prosecuting crimes where the only evidence is the victim's testimony. It's not sexist to use effective legal tactics, such as discrediting victims, questioning their credibility, and pointing out that their explanation of events is motivated by self-interest that has nothing to do with the alleged crime. It may be odious, perhaps even immoral, but it is not inherently sexist. Sure, it makes use of sexism in rape cases, but this tactic also works for other crimes where the gender of the victim is less of a factor. What WORKS is figuring out ways/policies that would encourage the slow gathering of evidence which can be used to establish patterns of behavior. For example, look at Cosby. What finally got the ball rolling? Patterns of behavior. Why is the current court case weak? They were not allowed/neglected to establish patterns of behavior. This is not a solution that would arise out of the concept of Rape Culture, because Rape Culture says absolutely nothing about the difficulty of prosecuting rape, because "it's all about culture"... a culture which is over-credited for current circumstances if it can be reasonably argued to exist at all.

Taurwen
member
member
Posts: 209
Joined: Sat Jul 2, 9:33 2016

Re: Rape culture doesn't exist

Post by Taurwen » Sat Sep 23, 9:33 2017

I always kinda understood rape culture as an inherently women centric culture. I understand what most people mean. But at it's base I feel like it's how women live their lives. I remember at a party in my first apartment (I lived in the same building as a bunch of my friends) discussing the location. We were on the edge of a bad neighbourhood but I was saying I felt pretty safe as long as I stayed on the main street. Everyone in the group was nodding and one of the other women said "I still keep my keys in my hand though" and all the guys were confused while all the women said "Well yea, of course!" and then we talked about the best way to be holding your keys in case you got attacked.
It's always been that kind of thing. The precautions women take that men just don't know about. I just asked my husband if he ever crosses the street twice and he had no idea what I was talking about "You know, to figure out if the person is following you or not. Crossing with you once might be coincidence, but crossing with you twice is a sign you're in danger" knowing to keep so far away from a car that stops. In fact a lot of the tricks I learned as a child to avoid kidnapping are still techniques I use today. Thinking about what routes to take home depending on time of day. Calculating how many groceries I should buy because I don't want both hands full. Thinking through my assault before saying anything to anyone and deciding there was nothing I could do about it, so I wasn't even going to bother. Being at a party with some friends and watching a strange girl drink so much she can barely stand and keeping and eye on her to make sure no guys took advantage. Getting my partner to meet me at the bus stop in a bad part of town even though he thought I'd be fine but I didn't want to risk it.
It's all that ~energy~ that signifies rape culture to me.

tomokun
member
member
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Apr 5, 10:18 2013

Re: Rape culture doesn't exist

Post by tomokun » Thu Sep 28, 13:12 2017

Thank you Taurwen, because I think this is a great point. I really wish this was the way that the concept of Rape Culture was talked about because that collection of feelings based on circumstances that seem universal among women is incredibly important to get across. Semantically I would have zero problems, and in general, I think it would make the concept easier to understand because it describes a subculture unique to womens' experiences rather than attempting to describe our culture at large.

However what actually makes up the bulk of what I've encountered in Rape Culture discussions is less about women's experiences and more about the definition that I indicated in my OP in this thread. Which is a shame, because while there are what I consider to be reasonable objections to that, there are none for the concept as you describe it.

There's no real way to verify this, but I guess this leads me to the question if Taurwen's description is more ubiquitous than I may be aware of? It's not what I've encountered at all (its been touched upon, but not presented as the foundation of the concept if that makes sense), but the circumstances that I've encountered this concept may be biased.

User avatar
rowan
member
member
Posts: 9654
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 11:01 2004
Location: US

Re: Rape culture doesn't exist

Post by rowan » Thu Sep 28, 16:32 2017

Well, we're half the population and our experiences stem from culture at large so I don't really see why we should bother separating it like that. Rape culture is what creates the situations that make women live our lives differently. But also, it's what people say about rape and joke about it and say it was "her fault" for either not being careful enough (crossing the street, going down an alley, blah blah) or for wearing the wrong thing or hell for even telling a guy "no". Rape culture is way more than *just* our experiences because those experiences don't happen in a vacuum.
spacefem wrote:All your logical argue are belong to us!

tomokun
member
member
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Apr 5, 10:18 2013

Re: Rape culture doesn't exist

Post by tomokun » Tue Oct 3, 9:42 2017

rowan wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 16:32 2017
Well, we're half the population and our experiences stem from culture at large so I don't really see why we should bother separating it like that. Rape culture is what creates the situations that make women live our lives differently. But also, it's what people say about rape and joke about it and say it was "her fault" for either not being careful enough (crossing the street, going down an alley, blah blah) or for wearing the wrong thing or hell for even telling a guy "no". Rape culture is way more than *just* our experiences because those experiences don't happen in a vacuum.
Compartmentalizing things makes them clearer and easier to understand. That is the purpose of precise language, to facilitate communication.

And there is a difference between feeling that something is true, and something actually being true. There is a difference between women experiencing the world afraid of being raped, and the world finding rape culturally acceptable. There is a difference between something being a part of the tapestry, and the fabric itself, and the way rape culture is talked about is as if all anyone needs to know about why rape happens is because men feel entitled to women's bodies... which is not even close to true. It's just not that simple unfortunately because as is often true, life is just complex.

The problem of rape is about more than women, and what men do to them. It's also about children and even men. When we are talking about rape, about what it is, what it isn't, and what is "culturally acceptable", where does child rape fit into the narrative of rape culture?

It doesn't. Because literally noone except for NAMBLA in any way, shape, or form would condone sexual actions of any kind towards children. Nobody is making that argument. Nobody blames children for being raped. There is no culture of acceptance that makes child rape ok in certain circumstances. Arguments about what the age of consent should be are not the same thing as a child of 5 getting raped by an adult.

The way Rape Culture as a concept is talked about, it is as if it is a total and complete explanation of the problem of Rape. So while women's experiences do cause them to live their lives differently from men (a point I do not deny in the slightest), women's experiences are not the only thing which define the problem. Children do not get raped because of rape culture, because they wore the wrong thing, or because dark comedy in any way is a representative of what society thinks is acceptable.

I DO however agree that it makes perfect sense for their to be a specific conversation and even terminology for the aggregate of women's experiences regarding sexual assault and rape. I'm not denying that this is an important conversation, that it is happening, and that these experiences aren't a big part of how women have to live their lives.

But what we are talking about when we talk about rape isn't just about women's experiences. And while societal expectations and judgments have an impact on how women live their lives and are treated regarding rape and assault, these aren't the only factors, and as far as I can tell these aren't even the PRIMARY factors for why rape in general occurs. We know this is true, because women aren't the only victims of rape, and I don't think anyone would argue that protecting children should be just as important as protecting women.

User avatar
melsbells
member
member
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 6:45 2014
Location: Finland

Re: Rape culture doesn't exist

Post by melsbells » Tue Oct 3, 14:22 2017

I first came to understand the term "rape culture" as a descriptive category of all things that make rape acceptable or normalize rape within a given culture. Stop right there to break it down, because "rape culture" isn't an argument about how acceptable rape is, just a category of the things that tilt the scale in the direction of accepting rape as normal or "
tomokun wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 13:29 2017
as a reasonable consequence of being alive
. When people get upset about the existence of the concept of rape culture, they're upset about a few different things, one is that they don't believe the prevalence of rape, which rape culture can be used as an explanation. Another is that they don't believe the existence of the things in the category. Usually, they go hand in hand, but I find them different, yet overlapping conversations.
I find the suggestion that no one finds rape acceptable dishonest. tomokun, you give the example of writing a character
tomokun wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 13:29 2017
If you want someone to be reviled, and have an audience cheer their death, you make them a rapist.
We must not be viewing the same media. But I know people view the same things and see them differently. A quick example, because I vividly remember my disturbance upon seeing it is in "History of Violence" where
the main character isn't made despicable for raping his wife
I don't buy the argument that something being illegal means it can't be viewed as acceptable by society. In the U.S., same sex marriages had majority public support before they were made legal where-as public support of inter-racial marriages only reached a majority after it became legal. Sure, legality can be an indicator of public opinion, but it is certainly not public opinion.
Lastly I think there's a certain amount of cognitive dissonance going on, culturally when it comes to rape. Lots of people can agree with the statement "rape is unacceptable", but differ more widely when describing rape -- "[This depiction of rape] is unacceptable".
tomokun wrote:
Tue Oct 3, 9:42 2017
Compartmentalizing things makes them clearer and easier to understand. That is the purpose of precise language, to facilitate communication.
I don't understand the benefits of limiting rape culture to how women perceive the threat of rape culture, because rape affects all people. Part of rape culture is the idea that rape is a just punishment for criminals, that prostitutes can't be raped due to the nature of their work, or that children have no bodily autonomy. There is a certain level of practicality in not granting kids a say over what happens to their bodies. I can't ask a two month old if I can change their diaper, but that lack of granted autonomy is commonly extended well beyond any practical need. Not letting kids have a say in who they hug or kiss, which is common in many families, contributes to rape culture. Sure, no one is going to say a kid deserves to be raped, but kids are primed by being told they have to accept unwanted contact in other forms. If you want to talk about how women perceive the threat of rape, go ahead, but that doesn't dismiss the place for having the category of "rape culture".

tomokun
member
member
Posts: 293
Joined: Fri Apr 5, 10:18 2013

Re: Rape culture doesn't exist

Post by tomokun » Tue Oct 17, 9:18 2017

So mels, I REALLY like your definition.

I had to sit with it for a bit and process it because I realized my reflex was to reject it. After some introspection, I realized its because, as with Taurwen's definition, it's just not the way that I typically encounter this topic. It's framed in very "cause and effect" binary-style rhetoric, rather than the gradient of experiences you presented it as.

I reject your accusation of dishonesty - perhaps we do consume different media. I've never seen "History of Violence", but while you have one "quick example", I can list off a litany of film, tv, and print media where murder and slaughter are justified and applauded because someone was raped. Everything from "I Spit On Your Grave" to "Thelma and Louise".

The concept I'm talking about, I can't take credit for. It's existed for a while. Heck, its even got its own page on TV Tropes: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... KindOfEvil

So I'm not sure what about my claim that "no one finds rape acceptable" you find dishonest unless you are making a semantic argument that ignores the point I'm making.

Unless you think that if we were to compare lists of media where rape is acceptable and unacceptable that you would have the significantly longer list, I'm not sure where you get the idea that the gross majority of media indicates that rape is acceptable.

A distinction should be made, however - when you are talking about the gradients which tip the scales, sexual harassment being normalized, misogyny, tropes about infantilized and weak women... these I would agree would be a part of rape culture as you describe it. However, they do not, in fact, normalize or make rape acceptable, any more than "Taken" of "Friday the 13th" makes murder acceptable. I think there is an important distinction between greasing a slippery slope and outright condoning an atrocity that's being dismissed.

When depictions of women give men the impression that they have a "masculine right" to women's bodies, this is a slippery slope that these men are falling into. Which, as far as logical fallacies go, is clearly one they are grievously guilty of. This is, however, their own error in judgment, and should not be categorized as a "societal value", because these individuals do not make up the majority of people, they simply make up the majority of victimizers. Just as it isn't right to paint all Muslims as supporting of terrorism, it isn't right to paint all of society as supporting of rape and sexual assault because a portion of population is sliding down that slippery slope.

This is important when we get into your point about something being illegal not necessarily acceptable (and vice versa). I, of course, will acknowledge that laws are not a 1 to 1 reflection of societal values, and we are in agreement when you say, "Sure, legality can be an indicator of public opinion, but it is certainly not public opinion."

My point is that when taken in conjunction with our media, the status that rapists are given by other criminals, the stigma that people convicted of statutory rape (under circumstances where the age is technically inappropriate but the relationship is reasonably considered consensual, such as a 17 and a 19-year-old), I'm not sure its fair to say that rape falls under the category of "illegal but acceptable". Not when it's just as reasonable to attribute the lack of justice for rape victims to the difficulties in prosecuting a crime of that nature.

The benefit in acknowledging that point is that it provides us "leverage points" to change the circumstances which allow rape and sexual assault to go unchallenged. One of the things I always think about when discussing this topic is about the nature of these crimes, and what I would want as a lawyer or a cop, who wanted to nail some asshole for this type of behaviour.

As seen with Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein - while they can come up with every excuse in the book, they can't overcome their patterns of behaviour. Imagine if the policies in place for investigating crimes of this nature took that into account. Imagine if detectives went into each report knowing that it would be a process of documenting this information in such a way that when charges are finally brought, no one woman's reputation or credibility could be impugned because their story was already corroborated by law enforcement tasked with establishing said pattern independantly?

Maybe that sounds impossible to you, but to me the only thing that's holding that back are these debates about how culpable society as a whole is for the actions of these individuals who have experienced first hand how existing policies leave loopholes for them to hide in so big they hide a mountain of victims, fostering an environment that leaves each individual on their own rather than uniting them into an army that can stomp out this individual's behaviour decisively.

I also feel its worth mentioning that I completely understand that MOST people who object to the idea of Rape Culture aren't thinking about things in this way. My view isn't representative of the pushback as a whole, I've never seen anyone else really make the same points as I do, most are like the OP, which to me is probably MORE of a problem than my minor beef with the concept as its commonly represented. The exceptions, of course, being the views expressed in this forum. #SPACEFEMCULTUREROCKS

Post Reply