Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

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Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Jackninja5 » Fri Sep 15, 18:41 2017

I have realised that feminism is not quite as extreme as it used to be and misandrists have caused the misconception that we all hate men despite it being against the feminist value of equality. I am sick of seeing men and women both being viewed based on gender and I think we need to protest further like how feminism used to if we want to achieve gender equality. We have technology. We can use that to further the cause like the Arab Spring did.
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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Sonic# » Sat Sep 16, 9:33 2017

What do you mean by being more extreme?

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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Jackninja5 » Sat Sep 16, 20:13 2017

I don't see people practicing it further and I am starting to hear less and less success stories by feminists nowadays.
That's why we won't back down
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I'm passing over you like a satellite
So catch me if I fall
That's why you stick to your game plans and party lives
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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Pikachu » Sun Sep 17, 4:50 2017

It had gotten more extreme. To the point of declaring near everything as sexist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRquPxdHNGE Since the inauguration of Trump it's on the decline as the left is not in power, but it's still radicalized at universities where they'll riot at the the drop of a hat. The instant they're not catered to.

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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Nech » Sun Sep 17, 8:33 2017

A good chunk of what they flip through in that video are solid points though. Like why are cleaning toys marketed towards girls? Or the fact that many female scientists still have a hard time garnering respect (remember that video awhile back of a man mansplaining the scientific work of the woman he kept cutting off?). I mean come on, they put chivalry up there. Being chivalrous is used often as a pick up tactic against women and it's own description says "to help the weak". I'm sorry but if you just blanket assume women are weak, that's sexist. Gotta find a new pick-up tactic, like listening or empathizing.
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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Sonic# » Sun Sep 17, 9:42 2017

I don't see people practicing it further and I am starting to hear less and less success stories by feminists nowadays.
I wanted to ask the initial question because all of this requires some more definition before I can agree or disagree. The word "extreme" alone allows Pikachu to object on the basis of whatever he thinks "extreme" is, it allows Nech to agree that some things in Pikachu's video are "solid points," and it allows you to insist that feminists should do more of something. In other words, it's easy to just agree or disagree because you're feminist (Nech, you, me) or not feminist (Pikachu).

Addressing issues helps make the discussion about more than just whether we're feminist and already think our kind of feminism is good. For example, is advocating for "equal pay" extreme? Seeking out more egalitarian and desegregated educational policies from pre-K through college? Creating workplaces and communities where discrimination is not tacitly tolerated? Allying with women seeking enfranchisement and rights across the world? Challenging restrictive forms of gender policing? Combating stereotypes about single mothers on welfare? Fighting continued disparities in domestic labor? Or if all that is too specific, are there at least general points, like how society constantly makes decisions about women's bodies without having very much input from women?

On each of these issues, you can probably find something specific where I'll say, yes, we as a society should do more with that. And most generally, I think our society should be more feminist, or proactive about confronting present injustices that women face. But without those details, I don't know what you're imagining with regards to feminism (what do you count as a success story? does that success include intersectional feminism, or are you more focused on high-level work by groups like NOW?), or what it would mean to make your vision more "extreme." I know that's a hard question, but it would help a lot.

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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Nachos » Sun Sep 17, 10:05 2017

Whenever someone advocates for something, I want to ask them what they want to achieve from it. What do you want to achieve for feminism and therefore how do you want to go about it.

This example can be used in many aspects of life in having better communication.
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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Skeezy » Mon Sep 18, 9:22 2017

I think the idea of feminism beyond social fair treatment is extreme.

For example I hear/read feminists in many scenarios, often say men and women shouldn't be looked gender wise. From chivalry to any number of things. I honestly cant tell if its healthy or not.

Women dont want to be viewed as weak, I get it. Realistically though... Debatable. If you dont think its debatable you aren't being realistic.

When I see people say things like that I view it as extreme, because as a man, women are always asking for my help. I am some what chivalrous although a woman can see another side if she doesn't say thank you. Yes, I've let a heavy door slam closed in a womans face on the way out because she didnt say thank you or acknowledge when I held it for her on the way in. Also tried to cut in front of me in line which was the last straw.

As a man I realistically size up how hard it would be to take out an opponent. There is easy, tough fight and stab his ***. Very few women make it into the tough fight category and hardly any women in the stab category. The stab category is light because I dont run into many women body builders, martial artists, or boxers. It mostly goes to naturally larger women, not fat but naturally grew into a size that would be hard to deal with, this is also super rare.

My point is, a lot of feminist views are extreme to me because they seem to follow super rare examples of men and women matching up equally physically that is not the norm by a longshot and it never will be.

Mentally is a whole other compliacted matter thats hard to debate because one side would have to admit its common shared bad traits, one of which is not admitting its common shared bad traits.

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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by rowan » Mon Sep 18, 12:47 2017

Oh I look like a softy but I'd be willing to bet I could take you out. What you think "looks" soft isn't necessarily. (I don't go around picking fights, either, because why would I do that)

Also your "super rare" really isn't. The overlap between the sexes is almost identical. The extremes are the outliers.
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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Pikachu » Mon Sep 18, 17:41 2017

By extreme the Op probably means more radical feminism that seeks the eradication of gender and capitalism and less liberal feminism.

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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Enigma » Mon Sep 18, 17:45 2017

This is super vague. I agree with sonic, we're all discussing our own perception of extreme which is interesting.

OP: what exactly do you mean by extreme?
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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Skeezy » Tue Sep 19, 9:54 2017

rowan wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 12:47 2017
Oh I look like a softy but I'd be willing to bet I could take you out. What you think "looks" soft isn't necessarily. (I don't go around picking fights, either, because why would I do that)

Also your "super rare" really isn't. The overlap between the sexes is almost identical. The extremes are the outliers.
Its not necessarily about picking fights. Depending on where you are you have to be ready to defend yourself physically. All men should have this in the back of their mind at all times because its the way of life. All out technology and civilization means nothing when faced with the facts of life and the way the natural order of life works regardless of how much civilized people want yo ignore it. You are going to have aggressors at some point every so often out of the blue sometimes for no reason at all. Its more about awareness of people doing you and yours harm. If you dont stay in shape have a weapon etc because at some point a "larger male" may theaten you and yours.

Theres actually a video of some girls bullying a girl and ganging up on her and a average not big guy comes and beats up the entire group of girls (4, two of which were very agressive)by not holding back. Women tend to think they have physical equality because men hold back for fear of arrest or even getting attacked by other men because they hit a woman. Physically it is no contest in most cases.

Women are used to having invisible protection due to society. Thus a lot of women think its ok to hit a male unless they run into a male who believes in equality and will actually deck her which society will make him pay for if caught. In most cases thats justified however some women abuse the protection until the male finally lashes out and that I have no pity for, nor do I think the man should be punished for doing so.

Its like stepping on train tracks and saying you better not hit me. Sure the conductor might get in trouble but whos fault is it?

Also my own fie was a bit of a club girl and she is known amongst her friends for being a fighter and winning. Shes also is almost same height but outweighs me, I'm skinny. In a drunken rage shes has hit me in the face several times but she cannot hurt me, at all, without a weapon despite having weight advantage. The punches were just an annoyance. Not the only female to hit me either but they were same result.

If the two were physically equal the number of woman raped, sexually assaulted and groped would decline dramatically and would only be limited to the weakest women which certainly isnt the case

There are videos of girls bullying boys but in pretty much all of these scenarios the boy does not get greatly harmed or knocked out and in pretty much all cases the boy is not fighting back. Also in male vs male smaller timid males have shown exceptional strength when pushed too far, one even splitting a larger boys bottom gumline in half from the 1st punch. There have also been deaths from such blows. Never heard about an average woman doing it though

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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by rowan » Tue Sep 19, 15:04 2017

:dieslaughing: you have no idea what society tells us about needing to be prepared to fight off perpetrators at all times do you.

but it's not assaults on the street where women are usually raped. So maybe you should go learn a bit more about this before you spout clearly ignorant stuff.

Also your biology is wrong.
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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Storage and Disposal » Wed Sep 20, 1:02 2017

Skeezy wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 9:54 2017
All men should have this in the back of their mind at all times because its the way of life. All out technology and civilization means nothing when faced with the facts of life and the way the natural order of life works regardless of how much civilized people want yo ignore it. You are going to have aggressors at some point every so often out of the blue sometimes for no reason at all.
Yeah, I've gotten into a fight exactly 0 times outside of school and don't foresee ever being in one. I'm not going to take the time to size people up and prepare myself for redneck bullshit when I could be daydreaming about more important things that will actually happen. Like eating. I say you probably only need to size people up if you're a big enough asshole that people want to kick the shit out of you. In my personal experience, it's healthier to put energy into not being an asshole. That's not to say that you are one.
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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Skeezy » Wed Sep 20, 6:44 2017

Storage and Disposal wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 1:02 2017
Skeezy wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 9:54 2017
All men should have this in the back of their mind at all times because its the way of life. All out technology and civilization means nothing when faced with the facts of life and the way the natural order of life works regardless of how much civilized people want yo ignore it. You are going to have aggressors at some point every so often out of the blue sometimes for no reason at all.
Yeah, I've gotten into a fight exactly 0 times outside of school and don't foresee ever being in one. I'm not going to take the time to size people up and prepare myself for redneck bullshit when I could be daydreaming about more important things that will actually happen. Like eating. I say you probably only need to size people up if you're a big enough asshole that people want to kick the shit out of you. In my personal experience, it's healthier to put energy into not being an asshole. That's not to say that you are one.
This is part of a society issue of being unaware to its very core. Its part of life even governments have to deal with conflict. If your life is so kushy that you dont encounter conflict thats good for you. For the rest of us conflicts happen occasionally in al sorts of manners wether your out having fun or minding your own business. Some people have different life experiences and havent been as sheltered or as privilidged a lofe as to not randomly be threatened.

The fact someone cant understand this probably means if you were put in a less sheltered position you would have to learn about the part life you havent encountered the hard way. Whem danger finds you you will be completely unprepaired. Police respond to encounters not stop them. If someone approaches you with intent to harm or take, and you get that wide eyed silly look on your face instead of taking action, its going to be ugly for you. Everything is not rainbows and gumdrops and not everyone in the world loves you like a brother/sister.. Thats reality.

Im aware of possible threats when I walk into a room and consider the what ifs in situations because of experiences in life. Survival instinct from life lessons.

If you take a pesron without survival instincts and put them in a situation where they need them the result is much like prison. Where you have the weak overrun by the knowledgeable. Not to so much the strong its just the weak have 0 survival instincts and are taken advantage of because frankly thats what makes them weak. This does not only happen in prison its only a question of local and how kushy your life is.

Examples of threats:
groups of thugs
ill tempered in need of anger management people
Drunken A Holes
Stick up boys (robbers)
Police

You can encounter these anywhere at anytime. Especially if you travel to almost any city around the globe.

I find it comical that people talk about things like assault, rape, mass shootings, gun violence in general, police brutality, and things of that nature but dont think they need survival instincts when they leave the house.

Fights happen in high school because your dealing with people. Fights happen outside of high school because your dealing with people. You dont have to start a fight to be in one.

Also about as far from redneck as one could be by the way. If someone disagrees that doesnt mean their wrong or have a limited view. Only means they see a different angle of the subject.


@rowan

The last time I checked only certain species of animals are born with larger stronger females others species males are bigger and of course there are some where the two just have different features. Humans where in the males are generally larger column.

Also there have been tests done on physicality and there are physical events where the top womens numbers are generally lower than the mens which is why in most compeititons men and women are seperate. When did this change exactly?

Also there are many rapes on the street many of which go unreported and are based soley on opportunity. Rapes happen anywhere. I have personally known women who have been attacked in public, my wife being one of them long before we met. A man dove into her car at night and tried to assult her. Luckily a male friend happened to see she was being attacked and beat down the aggressor.

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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Pikachu » Wed Sep 20, 11:20 2017

The point isn't that women don't want assistance when idiot dudes violently take advantage of the performance enhancing nature of their testosterone dominant endocrine system. The problem is that because "chivalry" is so strongly gendered, when a little man is being attacked by a big dude, chivalry goes out the door. 140lb and under males, even highly effeminate males, hell even transgender women, aren't given a social taboo against being knocked out by 200lb+ dudes. Is this how it should be? The reason this seemingly double standard exists is because cisgender women are characterized as uniquely weak, which has its roots more in sexism than it does biology, in combination with male disposability, the idea that men and transwomen are reproductively far less valuable to a society than a ciswoman is. Sperm cheap, eggs valuable.

People who argue that arguments against chivalry means women want men to deck them in the face the way they would another man, simply don't get it and it reveals their obvious misogyny. When its closer to the fact that how about you dont act as if cis women are uniquely weak don't deck any gender in the face. This abandonment of the idea of cis woman weakness and lack of agency also allows men to be taken seriously when reporting female on male domestic violence.

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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Skeezy » Wed Sep 20, 11:55 2017

@Pikachu

1st off let me say.
Im very happy to see a legitmate response with actual points. Rather than writing everything off as untrue because it disagrees with the theme.

See this is where feminisms many different levels confuse me. The statement of men and women physically being equal is a nice thought but I dont see it in practice outside a limited number of sports and rare exceptions.

I actually agree with a lot of what you said and can admit Im heavily grounded in male point of view, misogyny is a bit of stretch but I'm open to the thought my view could be skewed.

The decked in the face example lol.. is to show that we dont walk in the same shoes as genders. Which is known but doesnt seem to translate well when feminism is talked about. Some would call the double standard of protecting the what is considered to be the weaker sex honor, instead of sexism.
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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Pikachu » Wed Sep 20, 12:47 2017

Skeezy wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 11:55 2017
@Pikachu
Some would call the double standard of protecting the what is considered to be the weaker sex honor, instead of sexism.
It's sexism because the binary of weaker sex/stronger sex is not logical. What I mean by that is not that women are as strong as men on average, what I mean is that sex and gender for all practical purposes is a spectrum, not a binary. Within what you're or rather attackers are identifying as the "male sex" contain transwomen in hiding, non passable transwomen, transmen, intersex people, physically much weaker men, feminine men, men with mental disabilities you aren't aware of, men with sight difficulties, men with physical disabilities that aren't obviously noticable etc. So it's not "honour" to protect the "weaker sex" while viewing what society sees as "men" as fair game. Most of the so called chivalry comes down to cis men just fancying the cis woman and wanting to get laid anyway.

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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Skeezy » Wed Sep 20, 13:46 2017

I wouldnt say thats all chivalry is but I see your point clearly.

Men are randomly chivalrous with no expectation of sex what so ever. Helping a woman carry heavy bags, holding a door especially a heavy one, help moving a large piece of furniture, etc. Chivalry goes on all the time day in day out not just in the can I yet your number or dating aspect. Elderly included as well. Now the other categories not so much but it does happen there as well.

Now as far as feminine gay men and trans.. Heh.. As a cis man I tend to ignore these categories. I can only speak for myself but I am wary of them because of personal experience. While I am courteous, I do avoid them whenever possible. Many men in my category have a much more crude approach to these kinds of men. Mostly because a feminine gay man cannot change who he is. Even if he tries to "straighten up" because they know Im not gay, their gay side will eventually show itself and lead to very uncomfortable scenarios and in some cases sexual overstepping as men in general tend to have a predatory nature when it comes to sexuality. You can throw any chivalry out the window at that point

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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Nech » Wed Sep 20, 14:06 2017

I'm at work but can't respond in depth, but my god Skeezy you sound like a child. Your level of alertness and "awareness" may actually be drawing conflict to you. I saw it all the time in security. Especially with those to jump to defensive attitude quick on any form of confrontational interaction. I'm not a stranger to poor run down/risky areas or the constant threat of physical violence, but you simply have it all wrong. I can guarantee you've had a few confrontations you've started through body language and attitude.

As for the biological thing, for actual fighters (not brawlers) the only thing that matters really is weight class. But yes there is a general scientific consensus (even agreed upon by feminists) that there are physical differences between males and females. I don't even remember anyone really refuting you on that, just laughing that you went to street violence and saying that is probably not what OP meant.

I think in your last post you're confusing chivalry with just being a nice person. They are not interchangeable. Also in your last post, are you saying you avoid gay men because you don't want to be hit on and if you are you will attack them? That you are so irresistible they HAVE to find you attractive?
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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Skeezy » Wed Sep 20, 14:19 2017

@Nech

Ive been attacked with entirely no provocation multiple times sometimes by groups. Mostly because of area but this area is the entire city.

I went to fighting because its one of the most basic showings of physical capability in nature.

This is entirely my own experience. I have given gay men a chance to be more than tolerable on multiple occasions. Every time it ends in awkwardness because of lifestyle and once is a sexual assault while I was sleeping followed physical violence on my part (recently unrepressed this memory for the 1st time) Lets just say I could give you a lot of examples of why I feel the way I do. I treat them with god given respect...nothing more. I also personally chose to not put myself in those situations again. A mans nature doesnt change because they like a different sex and Im sorry I cant be around that with out the possibility of feeling uncomfortable or physical violence if they were to overstep.

The only gay guy I ever trusted was my best friend who was gay for about 4-5 years until he met his wife.

While most pro gay and gay men themselves mockingly say they dont want most men. Straight men want most women and I believe they are no different. Although I do consider myself attractively handom lol. My opinion is based on experiences rather than social opinion.
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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Nech » Wed Sep 20, 14:49 2017

Are you calling being gay a lifestyle?
Where there's smoke, there's fire. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. So just shut up, and bring some water.

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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Skeezy » Wed Sep 20, 15:03 2017

Nech wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 14:49 2017
Are you calling being gay a lifestyle?
Are you saying gay men dont lead a different lifestyle?

For example its awkward when a gay guy in a car full of straight men hangs out of the window cat calling men.

Or when a gay stanger does you a favor like give you a ride but then asks to see how long your tongue is.

Or randomly approaches and offers money for sex.


Ya know, the same stuff a lot of women are offended by. Which gave me a better understanding of why women get so offended.
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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Pikachu » Wed Sep 20, 15:27 2017

Skeezy wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 15:03 2017
Nech wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 14:49 2017
Are you calling being gay a lifestyle?
Are you saying gay men dont lead a different lifestyle?

For example its awkward when a gay guy in a car full of straight men hangs out of the window cat calling men.
You are hypersexualizing and dehumanising gay men when you say that. If we reverse it, no reasonable person would think a straight man would hang out the window and cat call women while he's in a car full of gay men. Because the straight man is granted a basic amount of human dignity in your reckoning, that the gay man is not.

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Re: Feminism is Good but Needs to be More Extreme

Post by Skeezy » Wed Sep 20, 15:52 2017

Pikachu wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 15:27 2017
Skeezy wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 15:03 2017
Nech wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 14:49 2017
Are you calling being gay a lifestyle?
Are you saying gay men dont lead a different lifestyle?

For example its awkward when a gay guy in a car full of straight men hangs out of the window cat calling men.
You are hypersexualizing and dehumanising gay men when you say that. If we reverse it, no reasonable person would think a straight man would hang out the window and cat call women while he's in a car full of gay men. Because the straight man is granted a basic amount of human dignity in your reckoning, that the gay man is not.
Very true.

Edit: straight men are known for cat calling women. Thats not the issue. The double standard on it though, is.

In that scenario it was my best friends bachelor party. After a night of everyone laughing and joking and getting along great, the akwardness in the car after that was so great we all decided to go home.

Basically if your going to be around gay men expect them to be gay especially if your around long enough for them to be comfortable. If you disagree with or even are disgusted by it then thats not a scenario you put yourself in without expecting it to come up because it eventually will. Has happened every single time. I dont fault them for being who they are I just know thats not what I want to be around. I also know every gay guy isnt going to try to advance on me sexually while Im drunk sleeping but also not putting myself in that situation again.

So I treat them with respect and dignity but choose to stay as far from it as possible especially as night falls. Thats about as good as its going to get out of me anyways. Just my opinion. i have no politcal or social stance on homosexuality it is what it is, its just not something that you'll catch me around for longer than an hour or two at social events, because all my encounters with gay men for prolonged periods of time have caused me to not want to be around gay men. Gay men, are men and if you are familiar with how men can be towards women when socially comfortable you can understand why I dont like being around it. Thats not based on opinions of society, thats based on experiences being around gay men and being approached by gay men in an offensive manner on multiple occasions.

Any one of my wifes gay friends could come over my house. They can even spend the night but you will never catch me at his house.

Edit: unless family member or equal to

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