The female price of male pleasure

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Sonic#
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The female price of male pleasure

Post by Sonic# » Mon Feb 5, 16:33 2018

Article: http://theweek.com/articles/749978/fema ... e-pleasure

So, what does bad sex mean to you? And how is that affected by your perspective and experiences?

I read this a couple of weeks ago. It has stuck with me as an effective summary of how sex within heterosexual relationships is evaluated differently. Much like the truism "men worry women will laugh at them; women worry men will hurt them," the article looks closely at the bodily experience of sex. More women than men experience pain during vaginal and anal intercourse; men tend to describe "bad sex" as unsatisfying, whereas women tend to describe it through physical pain. Then there are the social dynamics of bad sex, or a culture around sex that focuses primarily on male pleasure and satisfaction and female accommodation and receptivity. That leads to women ignoring discomfort and pain in the moment and (sometimes) for years or decades afterward.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by octarineoboe » Mon Feb 5, 20:12 2018

The most striking part of this article to me was - well, all of it - but especially this quote from a researcher:
While women imagined the low end to include the potential for extremely negative feelings and the potential for pain, men imagined the low end to represent the potential for less satisfying sexual outcomes, but they never imagined harmful or damaging outcomes for themselves.
Men and women just aren't living in the same world of possibilities. It doesn't occur to men that sex can be physically or psychologically harmful. And it doesn't therefore seem like a stretch to conclude that most men don't realize that this is an ever-present danger for women. It's truly shocking to me, and also just...so SAD that it's so much HARDER for women, we're carrying all this mental load that men just...don't. Obviously I'm over-generalizing here, but still.

And, Sonic, I'd like to add that not only do women often ignore pain because they're socialized to expect it, but when they DO try to seek help for it, effective treatment - heck, even the right diagnosis - can be very difficult to find. That was the other stunning part of the article to me, the disparity in studies on female dyspareunia (and vaginismus and vulvodynia - and by the way two out of those three things are nonspecific catchall terms) vs male erectile dysfunction. And i knew this already, but seeing the numbers like that just drove home how bad it is. My point is, empowering women to speak up more when they are in pain is only a fraction of the solution.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by geldofc » Mon Feb 5, 23:48 2018

men are telling on themselves with these experiences, that they're absolutely awful and desperate underneath it all.

i can have a high pain threshold when i'm into sex. i fucking HATE entitled behavior. expecting sex and pouting. holy shitno. don't ask me disgusting degrading questions because you're intimidated, or you're just a piece of shit creepy guy, to try to lower my self-esteem. they will seriously do this. if i'm drunk fuck off obviously???? this is a huge creep move. if i'm not into it STOP and ask questions, like a normal human being. kissing and telling their guy friends has to be the biggest mood killer of all-time though. nothing tells me that he's a manbaby who will need his diapers changed the rest of his life than talking about me like that. this isn't all during the sex act and i guess just doing the same thing all the time during the act is bad.
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Plotthickens » Tue Feb 6, 8:40 2018

Written before reading the article: There's not many people who want their orifices pounded every day. More men need to experience anal sex as receivers. After a few goes, they'll figure out they need to be kind, soft, gentle, work up to it, use a lot of lube and communication, and take a few days jacking off every once in a while.

Also, the only other monkey who has genital configurations similar to what we do has clitorises high up in the front to facilitate oral sex. Gentlemen, start your tongues: blow jobs and rug munchin' should be on at least similar levels of importance.

I'm going to save the article for later when I need a rage-boost to my day.
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Taurwen » Tue Feb 6, 9:28 2018

Plotthickens wrote:
Tue Feb 6, 8:40 2018
Written before reading the article: There's not many people who want their orifices pounded every day. More men need to experience anal sex as receivers. After a few goes, they'll figure out they need to be kind, soft, gentle, work up to it, use a lot of lube and communication, and take a few days jacking off every once in a while.
I feel like over arching advice like this is part of the problem. The number of times I heard "Well my ex liked it when I did it this way..." always pissed me off because I wasn't aware I was their ex.
Want to insure I need lots of lube? Go kind and gentle and soft. Want to skip the lube? Get ready for some rough and tumble action. Want to make sure I'll kick your ass? Let me hear how you treated some other girl roughly because its what I liked.
The only advice I would give across the board is communicate. COMMUNICATION.
And make your partners feel safe communicating. A woman should feel safe saying something hurt. A man should feel safe asking how something feels. Talking about kinks or likes or dislikes shouldn't be off the table. People should be comfortable saying they don't want to explore their partner's kink without it seeming like judgement or a failing.

I liked the articles take on "Grace". I was kind of surprised by how people turned on her and said the #MeToo movement had gone too far. It seemed really clear to me that while Ansari hadn't done anything criminal he had definitely been manipulative and in the wrong. And bringing that story to the public is important. Consent shouldn't just be a lack of no. If you're just hooking up enthusiastic consent is important. If all you want is sex, then your partner saying to slow down repeatedly should be a clear sign that you aren't going to get laid, there's been a miscommunication somewhere along the line and you need to reassess the situation.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Skeezy » Tue Feb 6, 10:50 2018

I cant say Im leaning one way or the other. (i read most of it but not all yet) I read most of the explanation about womens pain and I was anxious for her to relate it to aziz's case but Im going to assume she defaulted to women are pressured so much with painful sex thats why she caved into oral because women are used to being pressured and caving in.

I once was told about a man who was going through a trans process. He began to take estrogen pills etc. In the lowering of his testosterone and increase in estrogen his rationality changed. He became emotional, puppies would now make him cry. He said he gained a better understanding of womens point of view overall.

I doubt all men should or would be willing to do this.
Somehow we have to accept each others varied needs.

A man thats trying to get sex from his girlfriend is one thing. A man thats just starting to date a woman and trying to get sex is another. Men usually arent as cautious with women they really dont care anything about. They may act like they care but somewhere in his mind he might think he may never see you again so he better try to get it now etc.

Alll women are different. Although a man doesnt usually learn these differences until well into the relationship.

I think most of the issue is our approach to these kinds of things. I know a lot of men can be selfish but not all are. Men are just as varied as women are and in those variences your going to see things like this Aziz's case scattered all throughout.

Men chase sex thats a fact. Almost all men who date women have tried to get sex from a woman at some point. Some women are strong minded but some women arent. No man should be forcing a woman physically. Ultimately I feel yes she had a choice. I mean aziz is famous would she have left it was a regular guy? Who knows ultimately it was her decision.

To excuse her choice because of generalities of women makes women overall seem weak. Which Ive known strong women so I wouldnt just group all this under womens plight even though a lot of what the article is saying is.

The bottom line is in this case for one reason or another she made the choice to give him oral sex. She might be filled with regret and emotional distress but at least lart of that is her own fault for being weak minded.

As a lot of women strive for equality, men are going to get harsher with their expectations and hold women closer to their own. No man I can think of is going to get pressured into giving oral sex to another man and not be held accountable by their own actions in other mens eyes.

I agree with the article somewhat and feminism for that matter. That womens upbringing needs to be re-thought. A lot of the things women dont like are fed into by women themselves. A lot of it has to do with social attributes make up, cleavage, fake breasts, short skirts, sexual appeal in general. A lot of it has sexual undertones and in my own opinion teaches women to be fake. We've all heard the arguement of women being upset with gawking men, but a provacative dressed woman should expect it, even if its just cleavage or tight form fitting wear. To deny that is to not face reality as it stands.

@geldofc
As a straight man reading that.
All men want sex. Pouting honest guy (not the one who tries to lower self esteem) is probably-maybe the guy who women should give sex to.

What Im hearing is you would rather have the guy who decieves you to appease you to get what he wants. Which isnt always the case but a lot of times is. The pouting guys are usually the honest nice guys who finish last well behind the guy whos trying to play you. The guys who try to lower self esteem are even creeps in my book but they do it because it works sometimes.

When you have tons of guys trying their hand (not sure if this is the case) you have to look at things like honesty. Honest guys will be straight forward even if its off putting. I cant tell you how to react but a lot of times these are the men who arent going around running through women. Pouting is not game lol, matter of fact its an immediate honest reaction to disappointment. How they treat you after the pouting says a lot about the man. Even Im guily of pouting or getting quiet and spending the rest of the night drinking while shes fast asleep. Its hard to explain but disappointment isnt easy for men or women. Only those who have multiple options for partners will most likely react in a way more suitable to your standards.

That kind of reaction to honesty is partly why some less experienced good men come to despise women for their choices in men. It usually starts in high school but continues into 30's. Basically the lying deceptive assholes win. So many men become lying deceptive assholes to get women in bed. I know I became an asshole at one point and I had more women than I could keep track of vs coming 100% legit and honest. A lot of women (especially younger women) are attracted to things that dont mean the guy is a " good choice."

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Plotthickens » Tue Feb 6, 12:01 2018

Taurwen wrote:
Tue Feb 6, 9:28 2018
Plotthickens wrote:
Tue Feb 6, 8:40 2018
Written before reading the article: There's not many people who want their orifices pounded every day. More men need to experience anal sex as receivers. After a few goes, they'll figure out they need to be kind, soft, gentle, work up to it, use a lot of lube and communication, and take a few days jacking off every once in a while.
I feel like over arching advice like this is part of the problem. The number of times I heard "Well my ex liked it when I did it this way..." always pissed me off because I wasn't aware I was their ex.
Want to insure I need lots of lube? Go kind and gentle and soft. Want to skip the lube? Get ready for some rough and tumble action.
I agree with your comments about communication but just to clarify: your ass is always relaxed enough and produces enough lube to facilitate easy anal sex without any additional lube, foreplay, or anything else? Just slam a cock in and BOOM fun sex yeay happy?
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by melsbells » Tue Feb 6, 14:30 2018

When talking about the pain factor, is pain caused by sex and pain aggravated by sex ever differentiated? I feel like the category of dyspareunia, doesn't quite get at it. The differences in rating scales got to me, where women are more likely to ignore or downplay pain. Especially since women are less likely than men to receive pain medication for the same rating of pain, and wait longer to receive analgesia when they do https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18439195.

[Edited to make the first sentence a complete thought]

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Taurwen » Tue Feb 6, 17:51 2018

Well, I'm not a man, and I'm not interested in being on the receiving end of anal sex (or oral sex for that matter). But I still take issue with over reaching simplifications on something very nuanced. I assume if I'm not interested in anal, there are men out there who also wouldn't be. They shouldn't be forced to put something in their orifice just as women shouldn't be, it wouldn't teach them anything.
Communication and the comfort level needed for it on a societal level seems like a more ethical avenue to pursue change.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Plotthickens » Wed Feb 7, 9:06 2018

Taurwen wrote:
Tue Feb 6, 17:51 2018
Well, I'm not a man, and I'm not interested in being on the receiving end of anal sex (or oral sex for that matter). But I still take issue with over reaching simplifications on something very nuanced. I assume if I'm not interested in anal, there are men out there who also wouldn't be. They shouldn't be forced to put something in their orifice just as women shouldn't be, it wouldn't teach them anything.
Communication and the comfort level needed for it on a societal level seems like a more ethical avenue to pursue change.
Let me clarify. I was talking about anal sex, because heterosexual men are rarely on the receiving end of a pounding. It gives perspective and understanding. There's a reason practically the only people who want fucking machines are het men. So I was taking about anal as way to help men understand the need to be gentle, take care and time, and yes, communicate!

It seems that you glossed over that in your original reply, so maybe I wasn't clear. I hope that's cleared up now. It also seems that you were, and maybe are, fairly upset about my omission of communication as a necessary virtue for sex. You're right, it's essential. My comments were not "this is all you need for good sex: just peg him", more along the line of "sometimes walking a mile in your partner's shoes is necessary for understanding an aspect of better sex". This was all I meant. I think open and honest communication is standard and required before anal, honestly! So I wasn't trying for "over reaching simplification" of all sex, nor wanting to force someone "to put something in their orifice".

I'd appreciate it if you would ask for clarification before accusing me of advocating sexual assault or rape, or other heinous things. That kind of good communication might avoid these malicious over simplifications in the future.
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Plotthickens » Wed Feb 7, 9:12 2018

Sonic# wrote:
Mon Feb 5, 16:33 2018
Article: http://theweek.com/articles/749978/fema ... e-pleasure

So, what does bad sex mean to you? And how is that affected by your perspective and experiences?
My experiences with "bad sex" were described accurately in the article.

It was hard to get through. Very rage-inducing.

Seemed to excellently articulate the way our society treats het men, fractically. Like, this dynamic (men's enjoyment overshadows all else) plays out in multiple aspects of daily life, not just sex.

Ugh.
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by SimpleMan » Wed Feb 7, 11:05 2018

HI all.

I see a lot of misinterpretations of the events related to Aziz Ansari, I don't know how many of you have read the original article that started it all, here the link of the description of the events accordingly to "Grace":

https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355

I would just leave it at that, in the expectation that each person read and make their own conclusions, but some forum etiquette expects me to give my my own first, so here my "mansplaining" of it, please just dont read under this line, you have being warned:

1. Yes there was a problem with communication, but the problem was not on the part of Aziz but on the part of Grace... I find it extremely upsetting that when everything goes wrong the narrative gest constructed that the man is the only one to blame while the poor dear have not responsibilite or fault at all on her own. It is her responsibility to open up that little cute mouth of hers and say in clear English what she wants... That is what I consider good communication skills.

2. Aziz considers himself a feminist man, he have support feminism in all theirs causes, he have listen and learn, and by all that he knew he was not doing any patriarchy BS... In the description Grace gives, it is even clear that he did communicate, she didn't, she only asked for slowing down ones, and he did slowed down, The second time she says she was not ready for it, that is when he gave up on the idea of sex and suggested that they should put the clothes back on. By then he have already practice oral sex on her and she have practice it on him. I invite every feminist here, specially feminist men, to read the giving link, and then tell me, what would you have done different in this situation?

3. Grace was not raised up in 1920s when patriarchy teaches girls to never complain... she was raised up on the 2000s when there is plenty of feminism influence in the school system, in the media, in society in general, a lot of clases about sexual education, consent and all that jazz... about 30 years after the sexual revolution... if after all this, we end up concluding that women are hopeless creatures that can't say "no", then we also have to conclude that the foundations of feminism are then in disharmony with the reality of womanhood... What else can we do to teach women to say "no" when they want to say no??? what else can be done that have not being done before??? I am seriously asking this questions.... we either agree that a woman can be a fully responsible adult, able to choose what she wants or not and say it, or we either agree that regardless of all the efforts to empower women, through the decades, feminism have bring us zero fruits so far, and consequently will never bring any fruits at all.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by geldofc » Mon Feb 12, 13:24 2018

Aziz is a performative feminist/leftist dude, like a lot of them are. They say things they think will get them laid or try to get women to take an interest in them and to promote their brand, to open up the door to getting laid by advertising what they're interested in and it's all a huge fucking gimmick. Being a hypocrite is typical of shitty men like him.
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Sonic# » Mon Feb 12, 15:29 2018

It looks like there are two distinct issues. One is related to bodily experience itself: what we think of as good/bad sex and whose bodies or pleasure are focused on. I appreciate what octarineoboe is saying:
octarineoboe wrote:And, Sonic, I'd like to add that not only do women often ignore pain because they're socialized to expect it, but when they DO try to seek help for it, effective treatment - heck, even the right diagnosis - can be very difficult to find. That was the other stunning part of the article to me, the disparity in studies on female dyspareunia (and vaginismus and vulvodynia - and by the way two out of those three things are nonspecific catchall terms) vs male erectile dysfunction.
In a few classes I've taken the experience of sex has come up. Listening, I found it striking how much women knew about men's bodies, pleasures, and dysfunctions - how much those framed discussions of everything from what sex is (it often involved the penis) to when this het-sex ended (when the man was happy, which is ideally but often not when the woman is done). Usually a professor or a more experienced student had to point out that, hey, we aren't talking about women's pleasure in itself beyond abstract platitudes to getting off too. Sex, as the front page of Cosmo reminds me every week in the supermarket line, is normatively framed through ways to please men, and so even as conversations of female orgasms become more common, the conversations tend to labor too much (IMHO) to think of what that means for male pleasure, to stroke male egos. And erectile dysfunction gets more grant dollars than female pain.

The second issue is communication. Grace has been called a bad communicator. That's too simplistic, and fails to account for the context (one where there are logical reasons to not be too direct - worries about male disappointment, male fragility, male violence) and for the fact that indirect communication is an often-used and clearly recognized style of communication. ("Can you close the window?" "It's cold." "I don't want to feel forced because then I'll hate you...") She was communicating her discomfort in several visible and audible ways - moving her hand or body away (proxemics), going still and cold (kinesics), mumbling (paralanguage), verbal demurrals from "no" to not forcing the situation that evolved as he wouldn't let it go (a variety of direct and indirect speech acts), going to the bathroom for some minutes to collect herself (proxemics and chronemics). Ansari persisted even after being refused, even through all the visible discomfort. He was a horrible communicator if he missed all that. That's one cause of bad sex - downplaying all the signs that were present.

The communication that matters the most isn't just individual. Beyond literally missing the point, too many defenses of Ansari take the specific instance for granted without thinking about sex as a larger practice. Hetero-partnered women's bad sex comes from a lack of discussion about actual women's bodies and perceptions. It comes from the zone of ignorance where someone can act or be surprised that sex hurts, or when someone reflexively tries to drag the discussion back to what men get out of sex. What that means I'm still figuring out, but like the article author, I think it's easy to blame "monstrous" people and harder to change how we think, perform, and do sex at all levels of our society.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Skeezy » Mon Feb 12, 15:45 2018

I agree, many diagnoses for womens ailments seem to be really hard to get. I dont understand why a lot of doctors dont take the time to figure out what the real issue is. Instead they give you a hint and a lot of times you have to go see a specialist on your own to get a real answer to your questions. Thats if the doctor even gives you a hint. I dunno, I've watched my wife deal with this sort of thing and I feel as though regular doctors are useless.

As far as the scenario itself. Passive rejection doesnt always get the point across. Hand gestures and subtleness is not communication to most men, you have to literally tell us, we do not read mime thats not to our benefit. Blow a kiss or make sexual gestures and we read mime, subtle rejection not so much, matter of fact its flat out ignored. Even if you tell us you may have to do so once or twice for us to truly give up and, if you have to be forward so be it.

I dont think this case had any fear of violence etc. I know it may not be easy but thats life. If you dont communicate well, you wont be responded to well. Body language is readable but thats not going to stop someone whos mind is on sex, esepcially after you've gone up for a nightcap which is body language that overrides whatever subtle negatives that were given. He may see negative body language but thats isn't a no, so dont expect it to affect him. The phrase, "Nothing is going to happen tonight" will stop most men from trying to hard. If you dont communicate that he will keep trying till he gets a definitive No. Which is probably all that happened here.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Taurwen » Mon Feb 12, 16:04 2018

That's bullshit. Women are expected to be clairvoyant in the way they avoid dangerous situations. And men have to be told clearly, forcefully, and repeatedly .

I absolutely refuse to treat the men in my life as if they have the intelligence and abilities of poorly trained dogs. Maybe society should follow. If men can't figure out nuance, then they have to settle for only fucking women who give enthusiastic consent and nothing less.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by SimpleMan » Mon Feb 12, 19:52 2018

@geldofc
I don't know Azis at all, as I have never seeing any of his work... I think his feminism have helped him opening some work doors. I never thought He was using it to gain sex as well, but if you said so, I take your word for it... I am curious about your standards for male feminists... I know some people always put a question mark on them, and if they have secret intentions.... what is your take on that?

@Taurwen
I think everybody should avoid dangerous situations, men too... In the case of Aziz there is zero indications that he was at any time threatening or violent, at least Grace never mention any of this, as well as she did not mention any pain at all... all this things are made up things that I don't see how they relate to the case in point.


@Sonic#
To recap she toke off her clothes, suked his dick 2 times and masturbated him in a not so vigourouse way... I don't see how any of that can be a clue in that she does not want to have sex... shoud she masturbated him with more energy could mean a "yes" or it is still a no?

Feminism is leading this conversation in society.... To where feminism is leading us??? I read your comment and I am so glad I decided going MGTOW, having casual sex should not be a minefield that can potentially destroy your life and reputation... but it is exactly where feminism have being taking the conversation to... People used to say that the day will come where any sex will be considered rape... that day is here... I am glad I opted out of the dating game, so I don't have to worry about this mindfield.... The question reminds for you... how are you a better feminist than Aziz? what guarantee that you will not make any of his mistakes? how much better are you at reading nonverbal clues? Open your eyes.... see how easy he got trough under the bus.... how you know you are not next? this is real questions that you should be asking yourself. In my opinion.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Sonic# » Mon Feb 12, 20:35 2018

^ That's a terrible recap. You'd better reread the story you linked to and pay attention again to the long list of communication she was giving during that whole scene.
She was communicating her discomfort in several visible and audible ways - moving her hand or body away (proxemics), going still and cold (kinesics), mumbling (paralanguage), verbal demurrals from "no" to not forcing the situation that evolved as he wouldn't let it go (a variety of direct and indirect speech acts), going to the bathroom for some minutes to collect herself (proxemics and chronemics). Ansari persisted even after being refused, even through all the visible discomfort.
Ignoring your partner's communications and signals sounds like a quick way to bad sex.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Taurwen » Mon Feb 12, 21:00 2018

SimpleMan wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 19:52 2018

@Taurwen
I think everybody should avoid dangerous situations, men too... In the case of Aziz there is zero indications that he was at any time threatening or violent, at least Grace never mention any of this, as well as she did not mention any pain at all... all this things are made up things that I don't see how they relate to the case in point.
I was responding to Skeezy in general not this specific scenario. But Sonic is right, your recap is terrible. If that's what you get from the story you linked to (which I had read previously and is what I drew my opinions from) then you are absolutely right to not pursue sexual relationships.
She moved away from him repeatedly, he moved her hand to his penis repeatedly. She asked to slow down, he did so only momentarily before ramping up again.
There was a miscommunication that he failed to rectify not as the man, but as the aggressor.
And I've totally been there. Reved up and ready to go for some no strings attached fun. I've been the aggressor in hetero and homo sexual activities. And when it's obvious I'm the one who is doing the pursuing then it's obvious that I'm the one who needs to be checking in to make sure everyone is having the good time they want to be having.
If I've put someone in an awkward position it's my responsibility to make sure everyone is having the good time they want to be having especially when I know it's not as likely that my partner is down for a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am. Hell, I was in my early twenties hooking up with guys and it was at three conversations on relationship expectations because I wanted to be crystal clear about what the situation was before feelings got hurt, let making sure they didn't feel taken advantage of or manipulated.

Aziz wanted to hook up, and Grace wanted to date. He was definitely the one who should have been making sure they were on the same page.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by geldofc » Tue Feb 13, 1:07 2018

My standards for Good (not as in fair but as in talented) male leftists/feminists are pretty fucking low but it still seems impossible for them: they keep themselves from abusing women, and not just the women who don't threaten their ego stability. Being nice to women who don't threaten you is FUCKING EASY. That's basic and yet so many still have problems with NOT ABUSING WOMEN. Everyone knows abuse comes from the need for power, control and this need comes from men whose egos are threatened. When women feel threatened, we know we're in danger for DEATH and it has nothing to do with our ego. Not being laughed at because our penises are small or we did something stupid or something fucking ridiculous and childish like the things men actually care about. Stalking (following your ex w/o their knowledge is fucking stalking, messaging them about it in an attempt to influence is domestic violence, prowling for women on social media is still fucking stalking), manipulation (trying to influence for their gain. actions and words should LINE UP, otherwise they're probably a fucking misogynist), harassing, getting other people to do all that dirty work for you, smear campaigns are all abusive and what untalented male leftists do.
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Enigma » Tue Feb 13, 17:39 2018

Hey lets not forget that Aziz is famous. He may not have had the power level of Weinstein but Grace is in the industry. He definitely had reputation power over her on top of the normal fear of violence thing.

That article is fantastic. I mean it's completely true but it's the sort of thing you're just not allowed to say. It's expected even in discussing something like this that we give the men the benefit of the doubt. But the fact of the matter is that women are socialized for men's convenience.

My personal sexual experiences have mostly been above average good and I still relate to this.. what exactly does that say?
"Human beings are amazing... we might be horrible, horrible, but we're wonderful too. Otherwise, why go on?"

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Skeezy » Mon Feb 19, 8:23 2018

Taurwen wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 16:04 2018
That's bullshit. Women are expected to be clairvoyant in the way they avoid dangerous situations. And men have to be told clearly, forcefully, and repeatedly .

I absolutely refuse to treat the men in my life as if they have the intelligence and abilities of poorly trained dogs. Maybe society should follow. If men can't figure out nuance, then they have to settle for only fucking women who give enthusiastic consent and nothing less.

In what elements of life do men do men regularly deal in nuance aside from survival/danger?

Dating sure but as Im sure you've heard a lot of men say they dont understand women. Nuance can easily lead to miscommunication. Also nuance is not a clear message. Was it a hard no, or a maybe or, a gimme a sec? You cant say communication and then not communicate. Just like the guy is not a dog neither is she. Speak, be clear.

What happens to men who dont speak up in situations? All sorts of things. Thats life.

Rape charges, murder charges, beatings, mishaps etc. My point is a guy can spend the rest of his life in jail for a somewhat similar scenario. When men dont speak up there are consequences. If your using subtle nuance to combat something big your not 100% blameless especially if your a guy.

So in turn thats why I feel how I do about using nuance as communication. Its a form of communication and body language but not really listed under ways to communicate effectively.

Its like saying, well he should have caught on. Its not a real answer.

In the world of men as we reach equality your going to have to realize (i know your already familiar) the rules for men are sometimes harsher judgements and consequences. So in a case like this when you say hey Im equal and here is what I did, Im saying its not good enough and Grace is partly responsible for the outcome.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by DarkOne » Mon Feb 19, 12:02 2018

Skeezy wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 8:23 2018
Taurwen wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 16:04 2018
That's bullshit. Women are expected to be clairvoyant in the way they avoid dangerous situations. And men have to be told clearly, forcefully, and repeatedly .

I absolutely refuse to treat the men in my life as if they have the intelligence and abilities of poorly trained dogs. Maybe society should follow. If men can't figure out nuance, then they have to settle for only fucking women who give enthusiastic consent and nothing less.

In what elements of life do men do men regularly deal in nuance aside from survival/danger?

Dating sure but as Im sure you've heard a lot of men say they dont understand women. Nuance can easily lead to miscommunication. Also nuance is not a clear message. Was it a hard no, or a maybe or, a gimme a sec? You cant say communication and then not communicate. Just like the guy is not a dog neither is she. Speak, be clear.

What happens to men who dont speak up in situations? All sorts of things. Thats life.

Rape charges, murder charges, beatings, mishaps etc. My point is a guy can spend the rest of his life in jail for a somewhat similar scenario. When men dont speak up there are consequences. If your using subtle nuance to combat something big your not 100% blameless especially if your a guy.

So in turn thats why I feel how I do about using nuance as communication. Its a form of communication and body language but not really listed under ways to communicate effectively.

Its like saying, well he should have caught on. Its not a real answer.

In the world of men as we reach equality your going to have to realize (i know your already familiar) the rules for men are sometimes harsher judgements and consequences. So in a case like this when you say hey Im equal and here is what I did, Im saying its not good enough and Grace is partly responsible for the outcome.
Ok so according to your response, many men can't figure out nuance. Point taken. I believe Taurwen has proposed an adequate approach for those men, pretty explicitly, in her last sentence.
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Sonic# » Mon Feb 19, 13:46 2018

^ Basically that.

I don't want to reduce any of the forms of nonverbal and oral communication described into "nuance." Proxemics, chronemics, and oral forms of delay are definite modes of communication. A "nuance" is a subtle distinction like the pupils going wide or something like that; moving away, making long delays, and verbally refusing kinds of contact are not particularly subtle.

If that's too much for you to interpret, then that's why enthusiastic consent exists. That's why we can ask explicit questions. That's why we don't continually pester someone with the same request - if something is granted only after the third, fifth, or eighth attempt, can we really know whether that consent is enthusiastic or merely a way to get you to shut up? If you're seeking something, the burden is entirely on you to be an effective communicator and listener.

That really ought to be a part of any sex ed program.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Skeezy » Mon Feb 19, 14:43 2018

@Sonic & @Taurwen

Im sorry. Not going to see eye to eye on this one.

Shaking your head yes or no is pretty clear. Outside of that there is tons of room for error.

She definitely had the power to end the date at any time. Like many other men we know Aziz motives and why. Whatever her motives were for tolerating the pestering are again partly responisible for the outcome. Wether it be because she liked him or because hes famous. When your old enough to give consent your an adult and you have to make adult decisions. She had tons of decisions to make and they contribute to the result.

All this could be determined as mixed signals
You came up but you dont want to have sex, you dont want to have sex but took off your own clothes, subtly showing disinterest but still participating, not saying yes but not saying a definite No, for whatever her motives were.

And you want men to feed into that bullshit? im sorry majority of men arent going to. She was an adult, made a decision and she has to stand by it.

Forget nuance. Lets say a man is dealing with a gold digger. She keeps bugging him for money and its obvious hes annoyed. He can choose to end it or keep dealing with this person. Its the same thing. If hes already started feeding her income and gifts a firm no or dismissal is probably required. If he continues than his own motives are probably the reason why. So the gold digger is not to blame, not even a little bit. If hes not firm, she will continue to hustle and take advantage of him as much as he lets her.
Last edited by Skeezy on Mon Feb 19, 15:05 2018, edited 4 times in total.

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