The female price of male pleasure

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Taurwen
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Taurwen » Sat Feb 24, 21:41 2018

There's a huge difference between sex that makes a woman unwillingly uncomfortable and kink or sex during which someone is willingly pushing their boundaries. If it makes it easier to think of make it not-sex. Someone pulling a muscle while jogging through the park because they've decided to get in shape is whole different than someone who got spooked and ran through the park pulling their muscle in their haste.

Again, if the nuances are too hard for someone they need to either not have sex, or only have sex with on going enthusiastic consent.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by DevilsAdvocate123 » Sun Feb 25, 0:23 2018

Sonic# wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 20:20 2018
DA, you continue to ask impertinent questions by focusing on legality or blame rather than focusing on experience. You want a space where "men" (really any partner) can have a gray area to be negligent of their partners' experiences. No. First, negligence is often blameworthy in itself. One needs to realize one has made someone uncomfortable before one can learn and do better. Second, your exclusive focus on whether men are to blame evades the subject matter of the article itself: how women literally experience sex. To respond to the posturing here:
Please bear with me, as I'm a very objective person that likes to get to the bottom of things.
That's not being "objective."* That's missing the point and substituting one that you seem more personally (subjectively) engaged in.
If the pain and discomfort is consensual, then the pain and discomfort is okay to have happen.
You think discomfort is fine if someone consents to it. In the context of bad sex, that's ridiculous. What's better than bad sex that involves physical discomfort? Bad sex that's merely about less-than-satisfying sex, decent sex, good sex - being fine with bad sex being worse for women than for men is equivalent to being okay with sexism. Rationalizing sexism based on consent? Consent makes it not rape - the lowest of low bars. That doesn't make it okay. So let's talk about how to make bad sex better.

*I confess "objective" is a big yellow flag to me. It often signals someone who has a bit of philosophical or argumentative training but fails to recognize the influence of subjective experience on what they say. More operative here, it feels like a kind of petitio principii, where you presume that what you're saying is the truth or from a bias-independent perspective without putting in the work necessary to demonstrate that. (Paraphrasing: I'm more objective than you!) It's unnecessary posturing - why would you assume that the other people in the discussion are not interested in evaluating facts?
I actually don't* want a space for men to be negligent of their partners' experiences.

I'm simply saying where the gray area lies in many cases of sexual assault and rape. In such cases where somebody says "stop" and the other person keeps going, the gray area is this: Did the receiver actually understand the "stop" message that was sent out to them. This is crucial when it comes to deciding whether the case is a rape/assault, or not.

That is simply all I'm pointing out here. This is where the gray area stems from. I'm not arguing that this is a free pass for men. No. I'm simply saying that there are scenarios where the stop message was comprehended and the person kept going at it (rape). And there are scenarios where the stop message was not comprehended and the person kept going at it (not rape). It's a gray area, and there are cases for both scenarios. For example, if a guy says "wait hold on hold on, let me just.. hold on", obviously he was responding to the "stop" message, and clearly he was in the wrong for still going at the sex. If the guy hears a grunt, and if he keeps going, it's very possible that he has no clue the grunt means "stop".

_


To address your second paragraph, this is what I said: If the discomfort and pain is consensual, then it is absolutely okay to have happen. If somebody consents to the discomfort, then there are no wrongdoings being committed. For example, many women are aware that losing their virginity can be incredibly painful, but often they will still consent to this pain knowing that it will hurt the first time. There are no wrongdoings with that.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by SimpleMan » Sun Feb 25, 2:40 2018

Taurwen wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 21:41 2018
There's a huge difference between sex that makes a woman unwillingly uncomfortable and kink or sex during which someone is willingly pushing their boundaries. If it makes it easier to think of make it not-sex. Someone pulling a muscle while jogging through the park because they've decided to get in shape is whole different than someone who got spooked and ran through the park pulling their muscle in their haste.

Again, if the nuances are too hard for someone they need to either not have sex, or only have sex with on going enthusiastic consent.
This is the core of the issue, on my point of view...

When the nuances are so subtle that they will escape the normal person... then nobody should have sex?

I think people should just like... talk and say what is their deal, instead of expecting that other people make accurate assessments of the situation with nothing but confusing "non verbal clues"...

So we end up with a liberated woman in the middle of NY who received a full feminist education, but still is incapable of saying "no"... in my opinion a failure of the whole feminist ideal... and the balls feminists have.... to bend backwards, just to construct an argument that explain that she had zero responsibility for the quality of her experience, and the full of the responsibility lies on the man... LOL!

We are walking circles here... so if the nuances of my point are being lost... or not... well... what else can I do?

The point here is... that they might take your word for it and decide that the nuances of sex are so absurd.... that it almost looks like feminism is making the rules as we go, each time around pushing the boundaries of responsibility and consent until we have reach the point where... all sex is rape... they might take your word for it, as I was saying, and quit the whole sex idea for good.

I know I did... but I also think I am abnormal... you see? I had bad experiences in my past, and I am somewhere in the spectrum of autism, not that bad that I am dysfunctional, but somehow not fully functional... so... I am abnormal, I am damaged... and all that jazz... so if I say I quit trying, what else? blame it on my inabilities to cope... however what you are suggesting here have crossed the lines of normal people, the majority, the average...

The claim have gone from a liberated feminist that can't say "no"... to... if men can't figure it out then don't have sex...

There was a point when I though MGTOW will never be more than 10%, but we pass that line, then I thought it will be 25% then we pass that line, then I though it is not possible to have a functioning society if it ever reach 40%... you keep pushing the line, the number is going up... with this you say here... if it becomes the new standard... MGTOW will reach over 80% easily... No necessarily a bad thing... anyway...

You are the owner of the party, you can kick out as many people as you like, if your standard gets too crazy, you might as well end up kicking everybody out of your party.... just saying...

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Sonic# » Sun Feb 25, 8:25 2018

Devil wrote:This is crucial when it comes to deciding whether the case is a rape/assault, or not.
And that's (a) more than just bad sex and (b) not a good rule in the case you're talking about, since it fails to account for negligence (ignorance is not an excuse for many crimes). To the point here, it fails to address the unequal circumstances around bad sex and why women have worse consensual sex.
Simple wrote: When the nuances are so subtle that they will escape the normal person...
We aren't discussing subtle nuances. We're discussing oral and nonverbal communication iterated over the course of an entire evening. More importantly, if there's anything you fear not noticing, use your words to make sure that your partner is into what's going on. If for some reason a person doesn't notice some of the things we're talking about (unlikely but it happens), enthusiastic consent ensures that you're respecting your partner's comfort and consent.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by DevilsAdvocate123 » Sun Feb 25, 9:39 2018

Sonic# wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 8:25 2018
Devil wrote:This is crucial when it comes to deciding whether the case is a rape/assault, or not.
And that's (a) more than just bad sex and (b) not a good rule in the case you're talking about, since it fails to account for negligence (ignorance is not an excuse for many crimes). To the point here, it fails to address the unequal circumstances around bad sex and why women have worse consensual sex.

I didn't make a rule. I simply pointed out where the gray area was when it comes to evaluating such cases, where the stop message was sent but the other person kept going.


Refer to what I said was the golden question earlier:

If the "stop" message is sent, but he continues, do we know if he truthfully didn't receive the message that he should stop? This is where the gray area lies. This is a question that should be evaluated per individual case.

It's either a case of negligence or a case of miscommunication.

Negligence = rapist
Miscommunication != rapist

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Sonic# » Sun Feb 25, 10:05 2018

^ This thread isn't about rape. Don't know what else to say; you haven't gotten that point in a few exchanges.

Again:
[your post] fails to address the unequal circumstances around bad sex and why women have worse consensual sex.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by SimpleMan » Sun Feb 25, 11:51 2018

Simple wrote: When the nuances are so subtle that they will escape the normal person...
We aren't discussing subtle nuances. We're discussing oral and nonverbal communication iterated over the course of an entire evening. More importantly, if there's anything you fear not noticing, use your words to make sure that your partner is into what's going on. If for some reason a person doesn't notice some of the things we're talking about (unlikely but it happens), enthusiastic consent ensures that you're respecting your partner's comfort and consent.
[/quote]

Your admin style is bit.... harsh for my taste... however I am not the one who brought up the "nuances" thing up, direct that to the appropriate person...

Your over moderation focused on few members starts to look like you are using the admin hammer to silence opinions that you dislike... I know that is not the case, but it kinda looks that way...

Anyway, going back to the topic, of the nuances of communication... It is clear for the feedback I am getting that the moral thing to do is to infantilize woman... never assume they can effectively communicate what they want, and it is always the man responsibility never hers... What is the conclusion you are getting at?

About the enthusiastic consent... It is not the topic of this debate... the topic of this debate is: women bad sexual experiences, and the responsibility of men to make them better... please stay on topic. I can create a new debate for the few people that have suggested this solution, so we can study it in deep... but that will be after breakfast.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by melsbells » Sun Feb 25, 14:20 2018

I went back and reread the article linked to in the original post and the Grace story because I don't really follow how we got here. I initially didn't read the article as addressing the Grace story, but instead using it as an illustration of different perceptions of the same event and how that relates to bad sex. Upon review, I realize that my takeaway was greatly determined by Sonic's questions and that women under-report pain, yet at the same time are assumed to be over-dramatic with what pain they do admit to. I wouldn't say that the article is trying to explain Grace's personal motivations, but it does answer the question it sets out to answer, why might a person not just leave in that situation.

So I thought I'd answer Sonic's original questions, because that's what I've been mulling over.
Sonic# wrote:So, what does bad sex mean to you? And how is that affected by your perspective and experiences?
First, I should point out that I can't in my mind lump consensual sexual contact and non-consensual sexual contact together when assessing my experiences. I tend to not even think of non-consensual sexual contact as sex, maybe out of some sort of self preservation. Secondly, thanks to pain from other sources, pain free sex isn't an option. So for me, bad sex mostly means lopsided sex, where one person seems less involved or interested. Bad sex can also mean interrupted sex which can be caused by a pain flare up, so maybe in that sense bad sex is painful sex. But unlike "large proportions of Americans" (at least statistically according to the paper in the second link Sonic put in the original post), that pain is communicated, which helps allow it to be mitigated.

I'm curious how much first experiences shape a person's expectations of sex. My first consensual sexual partner certainly influenced my expectations in a positive way, overwriting some societal imprints I had of what sex was supposed to be. I can think of one similar account I know of from a friend who expects continual checking-in for consent because checking-in was such a natural given in her first experience.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Plotthickens » Sun Feb 25, 15:21 2018

melsbells wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 14:20 2018
I tend to not even think of non-consensual sexual contact as sex, maybe out of some sort of self preservation.
Non-consensual sexual contact is assault. Not classifying it as sex is correct, not a result of self preservation. You're entirely right. Assault is not sex.
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by DevilsAdvocate123 » Sun Feb 25, 18:45 2018

Plotthickens wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 13:12 2018
DevilsAdvocate123 wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 19:02 2018
Plotthickens, I ask that you stop trying trying to insult my posts and my character on this forum.
Considering what you think is insulting and your ability to take everything personally... Hm. It's good to want. Builds character. :thumbsup:

DevilsAdvocate123 wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 19:02 2018
Plotthickens wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 9:02 2018


#notallmen

Dudebroboi, you're showing your hand.
I will also repeat what I asked of you earlier:

Do you disagree with the statement that you quoted of me?

You don't know what my gender/sex is by the way.
Oh, it's entirely possible for genderqueer and women to be fuckbois.

Sonic# wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 20:20 2018
You think discomfort is fine if someone consents to it.
I bet DA never, ever, ever thinks of themselves as the 'receiving' partner.

Happy International Women's Day!

Mod note: NSFW image removed.
For the love of god, please stop following me around the forum making such posts of me, Plotthickens.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by DevilsAdvocate123 » Sun Feb 25, 18:46 2018

Sonic# wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 10:05 2018
^ This thread isn't about rape. Don't know what else to say; you haven't gotten that point in a few exchanges.

Again:
[your post] fails to address the unequal circumstances around bad sex and why women have worse consensual sex.
My post didn't need to address this. This is an artificial goal post that you have created.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Enigma » Sun Feb 25, 19:14 2018

DevilsAdvocate123 wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 18:46 2018
Sonic# wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 10:05 2018
^ This thread isn't about rape. Don't know what else to say; you haven't gotten that point in a few exchanges.

Again:
[your post] fails to address the unequal circumstances around bad sex and why women have worse consensual sex.
My post didn't need to address this. This is an artificial goal post that you have created.
Its the point of both the article and this thread. If you'd like to discuss the finer points of consent you can feel free to make a new thread.

It is interesting how discussing bad sex/pain leads people to rape so quickly. Bad sex and even painful sex can be completely consensual. Usually they have more to do with women feeling like it's difficult or awkward to ask for what they need/want to make it a better experience for them. So it seems to me that what really needs discussing is what is stopping them. I'd argue that the societal norms which are at fault here are:

- Men's self esteem being tied up in being good at sex. Men seem to take criticism in the bedroom pretty hard. Masculinity is tied up in this weird relationship with sex where all men need to automatically be fantastic at sex but totally chill about it.

- Women being told since they were young that they don't have power in a relationship. The norms I remember growing up with were the desperate woman/man who has no investment in the relationship stereotype. See: any sitcom.
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by DevilsAdvocate123 » Sun Feb 25, 21:18 2018

Taurwen wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 8:36 2018
The further conversation is at what point is a no a no. Should women be responsible for vocally, repeatedly, and firmly telling guys she isn't having a good time? Should both partners be responsible for paying attention to their counter part and back off when enthusiasm is less than apparent?

@Enigma @Sonic#

I was responding to this post, which was posted in this thread.
Last edited by DevilsAdvocate123 on Mon Feb 26, 15:53 2018, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by SimpleMan » Sun Feb 25, 23:40 2018

Enigma wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 19:14 2018
Its the point of both the article and this thread. If you'd like to discuss the finer points of consent you can feel free to make a new thread.

It is interesting how discussing bad sex/pain leads people to rape so quickly. Bad sex and even painful sex can be completely consensual. Usually they have more to do with women feeling like it's difficult or awkward to ask for what they need/want to make it a better experience for them. So it seems to me that what really needs discussing is what is stopping them. I'd argue that the societal norms which are at fault here are:

- Men's self esteem being tied up in being good at sex. Men seem to take criticism in the bedroom pretty hard. Masculinity is tied up in this weird relationship with sex where all men need to automatically be fantastic at sex but totally chill about it.

- Women being told since they were young that they don't have power in a relationship. The norms I remember growing up with were the desperate woman/man who has no investment in the relationship stereotype. See: any sitcom.
I certainly struggle with this 2 points you post here...

- Men's self esteem.... in what world does anyone care about how a man feel??? do you care? does anyone cares?

- Women being told.... who is telling this stuff to women? someone told you this?

I keep pointing out we are living in 2018 no in 1918... things have changed a lot... this are not excuses... in my opinion.

And those are my struggles with your points...

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Plotthickens » Mon Feb 26, 8:21 2018

Enigma wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 19:14 2018
- Men's self esteem being tied up in being good at sex. Men seem to take criticism in the bedroom pretty hard. Masculinity is tied up in this weird relationship with sex where all men need to automatically be fantastic at sex but totally chill about it.
I beg to differ. Men seem to need to be great cocksmen, where what they do with their penises matters a great deal: how much she came, how much she slept afterwards, how long it is, how many women he has had sex with (penispenispenis)... but not necessarily great lovers. I recall a time when most men did not know what a clitoris was. From the sex advice columns, most men are still astonished by the fact that the vast majority of women can't come from having P-I-V sex, and that "bigger" isn't always "better". Their idea of being "good at sex" seems to be entirely informed by lockerroom talk and wrapped around their penis: other sexual activities/organs/acts are mere fripperies.

It might be telling that the non-human primates with the closest genital configuration to us use their genitals in entirely different ways than we do. The clitoris is high up in front to facilitate oral sex, not P-I-V, and usually from other females as a form of friendship bonding.
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Skeezy » Mon Feb 26, 10:02 2018

Speaking about the grey area.

This involves pain, bad sex, and the womanss level of comfort.

Over 70% of the women I have been with, sucked at communication about sex. Im talking about the bump on a log effect. Meaning tthe woman agrees to sex and everything is consentual.

After or even during foreplay in a lot of instances the girl/woman just lays there. The man is left to listen for her acknowledgement of pleasure which may or may not come depending on what he's doing. I actually wish I had more verbally instructive women throughout my sex life as it was mostly trial and error. You get better as you go but you still run into lack of communication often.

There is a very large grey area in what is good sex and what is bad sex. Lack of communication is the cause and regardless of most here not understanding it, I know Im not alone.

Anyone whos ever been the aggressor with someone who consents but isnt a great partner should understand this. It also adds to men having to deal with a puzzle of sorts as every woman is different but many women do this.

So, I feel like part of the issue is women having discomfort/bad sex and not saying anything till afterwards. Its just easier to place blame afterwards than actually communicate? Cause again self fault is not a thing and why deal with it if every scenario doesn't fit. If you do communicate any issues and the man doesnt adhere or correspond to those issues, then he's an asshole. Logically better communication would help but emotional thinking wants men to just pickup on it and be insightful and its easier to pass judgement that way.

As a man Ive had bad sex in the same manner meaning pain/discomfort. I understand letting it continue for the sake of the other person wether to encourage or other reasons. However, I dont 100% blame the other person due to my lack of stoppage. Braces were involved, if that paints a picture.

The quality of sex is highly dependant on both people.

On the other hand, you could not communicate and tolerate the rest of the session.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Sonic# » Mon Feb 26, 11:35 2018

^ It takes two to communicate well. To add that to what Enigma said about women, perhaps some women don't believe they have power or voice in that situation, or (when asked about it) don't believe they should have power.
Enigma wrote:- Men's self esteem being tied up in being good at sex. Men seem to take criticism in the bedroom pretty hard. Masculinity is tied up in this weird relationship with sex where all men need to automatically be fantastic at sex but totally chill about it.
Plotthickens wrote:I beg to differ. Men seem to need to be great cocksmen, where what they do with their penises matters a great deal: how much she came, how much she slept afterwards, how long it is, how many women he has had sex with (penispenispenis)... but not necessarily great lovers.
I see these two explanations as being compatible. Self-esteem for men often manifests in overinvesting in a penis or phallus; any criticism of performance is taken as a personal attack on their ability to penis well. That extends then into a social rule, where other men who admit not always bringing their partners to orgasm are attacked for being inadequate, even by some "woke" men who are good at oral and digital sex. (Long story, but I've run into that while discussing my experiences with a former partner.) Sex itself becomes a kind of phallic affirmation of mastery for a lot of men, even overriding the particularities of the women and men they partner with. ("Good at sex" - but many of us with experience know that there's no "good" without a second person, a specific moment, and so on.) Good sex is sometimes more about men's self-esteem and their status with other men than it is about the men or women they're with.

That then results in frequency biases for everyone, as what works for one person is tried on another even if the results are different (not "what works for you" but "why didn't that work for you?"), or the pain experienced in one context is expected in another, so that the person believes that pain or discomfort is a necessary part of the choice (not "that sex was painful" but "sex in general is painful"). That starts to run into Enigma's second point - such resignation is an effect of believing oneself to not have power.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Aum » Mon Feb 26, 12:43 2018

I don't really see the point of comparing which sex has the best pleasure or the worst sexual experience at the expense of the other sex. Our whole society is woefully sexually repressed with a lot of internalized shame. It's not helping anyone to continue the shaming. A lot of people don't even know what good sex feels like... they are informed by dubious sources or none at all.

One of the disparities between men and women, in general, is that men can orgasm a lot easier. Orgasm brings a sense of satisfaction and a job well done by natural design. When someone is satisfied they may naturally project satisfaction onto their partner, for whom it may or may not be true. Part of the pleasure dynamic of sex is that it's pleasurable to know that you did a good job. The whole process of pleasure is self-feeding in that way.

People get really cerebral and intellectual about sex but it's actually a very embodied, visceral act that's geared toward what does and doesn't FEEL good, as opposed to ideology. If one's partner is not providing adequate pleasure then that's a conversation to have. As a man who has sex with men, I can tell you that we have a wide range of capacities and skill sets in bed. Boiling it down to a person's sex is the very definition of sexism. The main problem I tend to notice is not lack of self-control but ignorance of what feels good, mostly because a lot of men are informed by porn which is about what *looks* good. Then they shack up with you and they're running a porn script in their brain. It's rather insidious.

The other issue is that people on the receiving end tend to complain yet they never guide their partners in what feels good to them. I could have really good technique but if I'm using it the wrong way on you then I'll never know unless you tell me. Silent sex is pretty much a dead zone for me, unless we've been sexual partners for a really long time and know each other's tastes well. If you don't communicate what you want or you don't ask what your partner likes then it's no one's fault but your own if it doesn't feel good to you. I don't like a LOT of talking during sex I just mean, communication. It can be non-verbal.
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Plotthickens » Sun Mar 4, 15:32 2018

Sonic# wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 11:35 2018
I see these two explanations as being compatible. Self-esteem for men often manifests in overinvesting in a penis or phallus; any criticism of performance is taken as a personal attack on their ability to penis well. That extends then into a social rule, where other men who admit not always bringing their partners to orgasm are attacked for being inadequate, even by some "woke" men who are good at oral and digital sex. (Long story, but I've run into that while discussing my experiences with a former partner.) Sex itself becomes a kind of phallic affirmation of mastery for a lot of men, even overriding the particularities of the women and men they partner with. ("Good at sex" - but many of us with experience know that there's no "good" without a second person, a specific moment, and so on.) Good sex is sometimes more about men's self-esteem and their status with other men than it is about the men or women they're with.
You're right, thanks for that clarification. Their sexual prowess, masculinity, and indeed their very selves seem to be utterly tied to "their ability to penis well". This must be one of the many, many, many things that male advocates want to change. Is this obsession with phallus ubiquitous throughout all societies, or is it just a western derangement? Does anyone know?
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Plotthickens » Sun Mar 4, 15:37 2018

Aum wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 12:43 2018
I don't really see the point of comparing which sex has the best pleasure or the worst sexual experience at the expense of the other sex.
I don't think this is the point. When women aren't aware of what "good" sex is -- outside of just "not too painful" -- then we literally get women who don't know that sex can feel good. That they are capable of enjoying the act, that it's not just something to suffer through. Sex and money, the two biggest reasons relationships fall apart. "Close your eyes and think of England" should be in the far, far past.
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