The female price of male pleasure

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Taurwen
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Taurwen » Mon Feb 19, 14:51 2018

No, I don't want men to feed into it. I want either sex to stop the second their partner(s) show any indication they aren't into it. Without whinging, without violence, without anger. Just stop. If both sexes did so with every encounter people would be clearer about what they wanted.
Don't play games. People want sex or they don't. It's a low threshold that both parties need to adhere to. And if someone wants sex but doesn't get it it's hardly earth shattering. Not wanting sex and having it is more troublesome and as such, not having sex should be the default.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Plotthickens » Mon Feb 19, 14:51 2018

Yeah, the men who "don't understand" consent or nuance and aren't smart enough to use enthusiastic consent as part of lovemaking really don't have any business trying to get their dicks wet. Perhaps when enough of them are slapped with harassment or rape suits they'll understand that they need to be cautious... almost half as cautious as women must be.


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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by DarkOne » Mon Feb 19, 15:08 2018

[Emphasis by me]
Skeezy wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 14:43 2018

Forget nuance. Lets say a man is dealing with a gold digger. She keeps bugging him for money and its obvious hes annoyed. He can choose to end it or keep dealing with this person. Its the same thing. If hes already started feeding her income and gifts a firm no or dismissal is probably required. If continues than his own motives are probably the reason why.
False equivalence. But way to minimize sexual assault and sexual consent issues. :gf: <-- was looking for a plastic trophy smiley, but this is what I came up with.
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Skeezy » Mon Feb 19, 15:39 2018

@Taurwen

That I can accept.

@darkone & plotthickens

The example of the gold digger in camparison is about motive. Grace motives are why she didn't end the whole thing.

Matters like this when put with things like equality. Majority of mens cons are on the table. We are sexualy agressive, lie to get women in bed, selfishness, rape , murder, laziness etc. Men have a slight advantage as all these things are commonly known. Men don't dispute that men do these things.

The cons of women..are vastly harder to pinpoint what are the cons of women? Im sure if I were to list any, every woman would combat it. Why because as in this case where clearly the woman could have left, without violence or consequence, her faults are ignored. She is blindly backed regardless of her motives and that is the flaw in #metoo I also want to say that is the flaw in general.

To bring to a level of equality without sincerely admitting fault is impossible.

I know I'm drifting but this is largely most mens problem with a lot. The standards are different. I dont see them not being different and I dont see feminism fixing it due to lack of admission of fault. Thats not even a feminism issue thats and issue I and many other men have with women in general

Since the standards have been different for so long, i cant necessarily blame women

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Sonic# » Mon Feb 19, 16:18 2018

I'm trying to track this discussion.

The article argues that women's bad sex is often worse than men's because women are more often taught to be complaisant, which teaches them to ignore physical discomfort and put up with social comfort at greater rates.

Skeezy, you want to put blame on the woman in this hypothetical example because, though you admit that Ansari was sexually aggressive and implicitly acknowledge that he was manipulating her to acquiesce, because she could have technically walked away, she's to blame too? To blame for what? We're talking about bad sex here. Initiating uncomfortable contact and putting someone in an uncomfortable position is worse than anything that follows. Teaching people to be able to walk out may be valuable, but it is secondary to teaching people not to put others in bad situations to begin with. Anything less than that gives cover to manipulative assholes.

Then your comparative point is not to imagine a woman as sexually aggressive and manipulating someone to acquiesce to sex. Instead, it's to imagine a gold digger, replete with stereotypes about women. Like, no. The topic is sex. If you can't imagine a woman as an equivalent partner in sex, as someone who also initiates sex and always (not just also) bears a responsibility in gaining consent for what she does, then you need to try harder to imagine that. Only then can we have an honest discussion about why women's standards for even technically consensual sex are so low.

Being an ethical sex communicator means, when you're initiating an activity, you account for any potential ambiguity in your partner's communication. You don't make up dumb excuses about "mixed signals," because if you can recognize that the signals are mixed, that's a no-go. You need to unmix them first. You ask explicitly. You stop. If your partner wants to clear that up with some enthusiastic consent, they can do that. If they continue to be indirect, you don't go. If they get frustrated that you're playing it safe, maybe don't have sex with them.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Skeezy » Mon Feb 19, 19:12 2018

@Sonic

Well put.

I can agree that what he and other men do is far from perfect and could use serious input and guidelines. Thank you for acknowledging the secondary.



Gold digger is not a stereo type. Its a word used to define the nature of certain women. It may be overly and improperly used but gold diggers do exist. Women may hate the word but that does not make it irrelevant. That just coincides with my point that any fault groups of women have shown will be quickly dismissed as fictional or stereotypical or other because women dislike it. Almost like the B word. Its a cruical word but some women are proud to be the B word. However that nature isnt taken into account when generally and openly talking about women.


I hope you catch my drift about admitting faults in the nature of women, such as admitting faults in the nature of women lol

I feel at all times, its expected for men to be held accountable for their nature while women rebuke accountability for their nature. Theirs doesn't exist apparently, or its just limited to what they say it is

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by geldofc » Tue Feb 20, 9:41 2018

Lmao, golddiggers are smart and it is a misogynist stereotype for men to use that. Trust me, when you act fair with men they are prone to treat you lower than dog shit. Women shouldn't be afraid to golddig. Men are angry when women have standards they can't fulfill and lash out in misogynist ways to control them and some women that are scared of what men think of them still try to package themselves in acceptable ways. Aka the pick-mes.
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Skeezy » Tue Feb 20, 10:04 2018

@geldofc

Wow.
Thank you for supporting my point.

Majority of men are not out to trick or control you but a large portion are trying to get laid, and some are trying to control you.

I dont consider a woman whos wants financial stability a gold digger. However, I despise gold diggers as lazy manipulative scum. These are a portion of women who give women a bad reputation and give men like those in MGtow reasons to treat women like shit. Once their looks fade, unless they have found a guaranteed sugar daddy, (which in my opinion is why most wind up dating/marrying near death old men) they have a hard knock life ahead of them. Very likely to end up a dusty prostitute. Its funny because I consider it street justice lol

A man who is a piece of shit, is a piece of shit. A woman who is a piece of shit, is a piece of shit. Im equal about that

Edit also aside from motives in my example of gold digging. The gold digger would continue to take advantage just like a male will continue to push for sex.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Rainbow Dolphins » Tue Feb 20, 21:36 2018

Money =/= sex. The scenarios are not equivalent. A woman who wants sex from a man and continues pressing for it when she sees signals that he may not be into it instead of checking in and clarifying consent would be the equivalent scenario. I'm horny and I want sex just like any average person, but I've never just barreled on when my partner was less than responsive. I don't get what is so hard about this concept. If you're not sure, ask. If you're not comfortable asking, stop.

This isn't really about "cons of women" or "cons of men," it's about interactions between people. The idea that men and women have some kind of different inherent natures is a huge part of the problem. People are people and gender roles are socially indoctrinated. They can and should be challenged.
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Skeezy » Wed Feb 21, 17:20 2018

@rainbow dolphins.

I thought the example was spot on. Money to the gold digger is = the man wanting sex. Sure if you take it out of context money does not equal sex. The game ran and the desires are equal. Your using this person to get what you want out of them, wether it be sex or money. They use and manipulate the person exactly the same. Thats not even the worst case scenario for men of using women. If your using a person why would you stop if they dont actually say no. The gold digger wouldnt stop, neither would a sex craving male. Its just obbious you have to make a stand and say no people have yo do this in their lives constantly in all types of situations.


Whats so hard about it?, is in most cases its a given that the guy is trying to get laid. This is what he set out to do from before meeting or calling the woman. Everything goes well she agrees to be alone with you, you start pressing for sex. She gives mixed signals by participating but acting like she doesnt want to. Honestly especially on the first date or just meeting, men dont really care if you want to. It matters a little for the future but his mission overrides that. He wants sex and everything he's done literally everything from conversation to the date itself has been towards that goal.

If you agree to be alone, and begin getting physical. Especially if you get butt nekkid. A hard no is required. Im sorry. Your going to be nagged to death otherwise be cause you just wasted pretty much all of his time and effort. Usually its to late to try to find another woman. So in turn yes,you must say no, if you want him to stop pressing the issue. This as with everything else in life you have to be firm. If you leave room for maybe or possibly expect the issue to be pressed further regardless of undesirable body language it leaves too much room.

Sure a kind gentleman would stop asking. Some men will become angry and leave or tell the woman to get out. If he is actually considering you as being with him he may just take it in stride and have some respect for you as a person. It depends on what he sees in you. In most mens minds as long as you arent forcing or sexually assaulting your good. I understand women have a prblem with that and that needs compromise. I refuse to believe women are so weak they cant say no. In life people would walk all over you. If you let that happen its parlty you
Last edited by Skeezy on Wed Feb 21, 17:34 2018, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Taurwen » Wed Feb 21, 17:32 2018

That is pretty terrible. You have a pretty bleak view of people.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Skeezy » Wed Feb 21, 17:36 2018

@taurwen people arent nice.

People act nice and I can say there are genuinely nice people out there.

Everyone else will use you in a heartbeat for whatever reason not just sex. If you cant say no, your a weak individual. Go to the wrong place and you will be taken advantage of.

The world is not nice, people do much worse fucked up stuff. This is real. How it really is. The true nature of general population is selfishness.

Thats why kindness and looking out for your fellow person is special and appreciated. It makes you better than most. However being used by people and not being able to say no, makes you a target until you act like an adult and put those trying to use you in their place

As a boy, I had trouble saying no to people. As a man, your lucky if all I say is no. Why? Because many people will try to use you throughout your life and its up to you to learn, mature, and discern.

How general population is all depends on where you live. Nice people can also be selfish but nice neighborhoods are called nice neighborhoods for a reason. Even some jobs will use to death if you cant say no. Its adult to be able to say no, if you can't, you haven't matured.

But I digress, I agree with sonic. Some basic ettiquette needs to be taught to better the situation. For sex purposes, many men will adhere to it, as long as its not outlandish.

Ive seen weak people get run over by minimal aggression and let it happen. Its not pretty. In nice neighborhoods and bad neighborhoods.

Standing up to a bully, not letting friends take advantage of you, standing up to police when they break the law, telling that homeless guy to stop wiping your windshield, not letting someone borrow your car, saying no to drugs, not letting someone talk you into something you dont want to do in general. If I do a favor its because I like you or because I wanted to. Not because I feel pressured and am too timid to say no. Ok ok I'm stopping sorry

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Sonic# » Wed Feb 21, 21:25 2018

I'm going to ask that we keep this thread from digressing further into what Skeezy thinks of people in general, and focus on the experience of sex, if anyone has anything to say on that.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by DevilsAdvocate123 » Thu Feb 22, 23:08 2018

I'm going to provide a silver lining to this discussion. If you disagree with anything, let me know.


Is pain ever involved in sex acts? Yes.

s it okay for one to experience pain during sex? If it is consensual, yes.

Should anybody force another human being to do certain acts of sex? No.

Should men do certain painful sex acts, such as receiving anal, to better understand the pain that women can go though during sex? No. We shouldn't force another human being to do certain acts of sex.

Are all men guilty of forcing women to do sex acts? No.

Do all women claim that all men are guilty of forcing women to do sex acts? No.

Does yes mean yes? Yes, if it's not a forced yes.

Does no mean no? Yes.


It seems to me that we all have this understanding, and that we should condemn those whose primitive urges wrongly infringe on the lives of other human beings.
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Taurwen » Fri Feb 23, 8:36 2018

Did you read the original article? The issue isn't the black and white you're presenting. It's about how women are socialized to deal with more pain and discomfort and think of it as normal and fine. At the base Men think bad sex is unfulfilling, Women think bad sex is traumatizing and/or painful.

The further conversation is at what point is a no a no. Should women be responsible for vocally, repeatedly, and firmly telling guys she isn't having a good time? Should both partners be responsible for paying attention to their counter part and back off when enthusiasm is less than apparent?

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Plotthickens » Fri Feb 23, 9:02 2018

DevilsAdvocate123 wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 23:08 2018
Are all men guilty of forcing women to do sex acts? No.
#notallmen

Dudebroboi, you're showing your hand.
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Sonic# » Fri Feb 23, 11:40 2018

Do I ask myself easy or impertinent questions?

Yes.

The legalistic tone (condemn, infringe, all men) misses the point. I think that is a common error though. The focus here is on the quality of sex, the experience of sex, and why bad sex for men means less pleasure but for women it means pain and discomfort.

Taurwen, your second paragraph make me think of the "nag," a feminine stereotype where a woman asks and asks and asks her heterosexual partner to do things. That's a negative stereotype - women being so vocal is unwelcome. One side here is that, during dating, women are put in the position of either having to speak up or put out, with the pressure to not be a nag. Yet a male partner's persistent pestering and propositioning is not thought of as nagging at all. The stereotype (to my knowledge) doesn't carry over to him.

So part of bad sex goes beyond individual communication and into whose genders' social inputs are seen as visible and important and whose are seen as a nuisance.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by DevilsAdvocate123 » Fri Feb 23, 19:24 2018

Plotthickens wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 9:02 2018
DevilsAdvocate123 wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 23:08 2018
Are all men guilty of forcing women to do sex acts? No.
#notallmen

Dudebroboi, you're showing your hand.
Do you disagree with that statement?

You don't know what my gender/sex is by the way.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by DevilsAdvocate123 » Fri Feb 23, 19:49 2018

Taurwen wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 8:36 2018
Did you read the original article? The issue isn't the black and white you're presenting. It's about how women are socialized to deal with more pain and discomfort and think of it as normal and fine. At the base Men think bad sex is unfulfilling, Women think bad sex is traumatizing and/or painful.

The further conversation is at what point is a no a no. Should women be responsible for vocally, repeatedly, and firmly telling guys she isn't having a good time? Should both partners be responsible for paying attention to their counter part and back off when enthusiasm is less than apparent?
I'm sorry for not addressing the other topics of discussion that you have presented. I'll address them below. Please let me know at what point you disagree. @Sonic# Yes, I often do like to break down certain things to the ground level, so that we can all find where a disagreement could stem from on the primitive level. Often times, people will dig a discussion into the ground only to realize that a disagreement deep down is what has caused a chain of disagreement towards the surface level of the conversation. Please bear with me, as I'm a very objective person that likes to get to the bottom of things.


Are there women that view bad sex as sex that is traumatizing and/or painful? Yes.

Is this viewpoint okay? Yes. People are allowed to have their opinions.

Are there men that view bad sex as sex that is unfulfilling? Yes.

Is this viewpoint okay? Yes. People are allowed to have their opinions.


If the prior 4 questions were to reverse the sex, would the answers change? No.

Do more women view bad sex as traumatizing and/or painful, and do more men view bad sex as unfulfilling? Most likely.

Is this okay? Yes. People are allowed to have their opinions.



So here's where things could get dicey.

Should society make it out that "a woman experiencing pain and discomfort during sex" is normal? Yes. It would be naive not to point this out as a common occurrence.

Should society make it out that "a woman experiencing pain and discomfort during sex" is something that is okay to have happen? Here is where the disagreement most likely stems from. If the pain and discomfort is consensual, then the pain and discomfort is okay to have happen. If the pain and discomfort is not consensual, it is not okay.





Moving to this: "Should women be responsible for vocally, repeatedly, and firmly telling guys she isn't having a good time? Should both partners be responsible for paying attention to their counter part and back off when enthusiasm is less than apparent". I will break it down. Please let me know at what point you disagree. Note: Keep in mind that the "stop" message could be anything ranging from verbal communication to body language.


If a woman says yes to sex, does this mean yes? Yes, if it isn't a forced yes.

If a woman says stop, and if the receiver comprehends this communication, should he stop? Yes.
Would he be in the wrong to not stop? Yes, absolutely, given that he comprehended the stop message.



Here's where it gets dicey again.

If miscommunication occurs during sex, where the "stop" message is sent to the receiver, but the message is not comprehended by the receiver due to miscommunication, is it a bad experience for the woman? Most likely, yes.

Would he be in the wrong if he truthfully didn't receive the message that he should stop? No.


And the golden question:
If the "stop" message is sent, but he continues, do we know if he truthfully didn't receive the message that he should stop? This is where the gray area lies. This is a question that should be evaluated per individual case.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by geldofc » Sat Feb 24, 15:16 2018

A guy's persistence should designate him into the Creep box. I''ll continue putting men into creep boxes, they hate that more than anything and that is what many of them exactly are.
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Plotthickens » Sat Feb 24, 16:21 2018

DevilsAdvocate123 wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 19:49 2018
And the golden question:
If the "stop" message is sent, but he continues, do we know if he truthfully didn't receive the message that he should stop? This is where the gray area lies. This is a question that should be evaluated per individual case.
This is bullshit and you can take this stupid Bumbler argument, fold it until it's all corners, and shove it up your oubliette.
The myth of the male bumbler
https://theweek.com/articles/737056/myth-male-bumbler

There's a reason for this plague of know-nothings: The bumbler's perpetual amazement exonerates him. Incompetence is less damaging than malice. And men — particularly powerful men — use that loophole like corporations use off-shore accounts. The bumbler takes one of our culture's most muscular myths — that men are clueless — and weaponizes it into an alibi.

Allow me to make a controversial proposition: Men are every bit as sneaky and calculating and venomous as women are widely suspected to be. And the bumbler — the very figure that shelters them from this ugly truth — is the best and hardest proof.

Breaking that alibi means dissecting that myth. The line on men has been that they're the only gender qualified to hold important jobs and too incompetent to be responsible for their conduct.
If you're too incompetent to figure out consent, you're too incompetent for sex.
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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by DevilsAdvocate123 » Sat Feb 24, 19:02 2018

Plotthickens wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 16:21 2018
DevilsAdvocate123 wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 19:49 2018
And the golden question:
If the "stop" message is sent, but he continues, do we know if he truthfully didn't receive the message that he should stop? This is where the gray area lies. This is a question that should be evaluated per individual case.
This is bullshit and you can take this stupid Bumbler argument, fold it until it's all corners, and shove it up your oubliette.
The myth of the male bumbler
https://theweek.com/articles/737056/myth-male-bumbler

There's a reason for this plague of know-nothings: The bumbler's perpetual amazement exonerates him. Incompetence is less damaging than malice. And men — particularly powerful men — use that loophole like corporations use off-shore accounts. The bumbler takes one of our culture's most muscular myths — that men are clueless — and weaponizes it into an alibi.

Allow me to make a controversial proposition: Men are every bit as sneaky and calculating and venomous as women are widely suspected to be. And the bumbler — the very figure that shelters them from this ugly truth — is the best and hardest proof.

Breaking that alibi means dissecting that myth. The line on men has been that they're the only gender qualified to hold important jobs and too incompetent to be responsible for their conduct.
If you're too incompetent to figure out consent, you're too incompetent for sex.
Plotthickens, I ask that you stop trying trying to insult my posts and my character on this forum.

I am not making the argument that you have described. I simply pointed out where the gray area stems from.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by DevilsAdvocate123 » Sat Feb 24, 19:02 2018

Plotthickens wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 9:02 2018
DevilsAdvocate123 wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 23:08 2018
Are all men guilty of forcing women to do sex acts? No.
#notallmen

Dudebroboi, you're showing your hand.
I will also repeat what I asked of you earlier:

Do you disagree with the statement that you quoted of me?

You don't know what my gender/sex is by the way.

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by Sonic# » Sat Feb 24, 20:20 2018

DA, you continue to ask impertinent questions by focusing on legality or blame rather than focusing on experience. You want a space where "men" (really any partner) can have a gray area to be negligent of their partners' experiences. No. First, negligence is often blameworthy in itself. One needs to realize one has made someone uncomfortable before one can learn and do better. Second, your exclusive focus on whether men are to blame evades the subject matter of the article itself: how women literally experience sex. To respond to the posturing here:
Please bear with me, as I'm a very objective person that likes to get to the bottom of things.
That's not being "objective."* That's missing the point and substituting one that you seem more personally (subjectively) engaged in.
If the pain and discomfort is consensual, then the pain and discomfort is okay to have happen.
You think discomfort is fine if someone consents to it. In the context of bad sex, that's ridiculous. What's better than bad sex that involves physical discomfort? Bad sex that's merely about less-than-satisfying sex, decent sex, good sex - being fine with bad sex being worse for women than for men is equivalent to being okay with sexism. Rationalizing sexism based on consent? Consent makes it not rape - the lowest of low bars. That doesn't make it okay. So let's talk about how to make bad sex better.

*I confess "objective" is a big yellow flag to me. It often signals someone who has a bit of philosophical or argumentative training but fails to recognize the influence of subjective experience on what they say. More operative here, it feels like a kind of petitio principii, where you presume that what you're saying is the truth or from a bias-independent perspective without putting in the work necessary to demonstrate that. (Paraphrasing: I'm more objective than you!) It's unnecessary posturing - why would you assume that the other people in the discussion are not interested in evaluating facts?

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Re: The female price of male pleasure

Post by SimpleMan » Sat Feb 24, 21:24 2018

The article in the OP is actually offtopic... how can't the debate be on topic???

First of all, Grace never talked about pain... but for some reason the article bring it over with some random study... so now we have 30% of women have pain... and we have virtually go from that to now pretty much the claim that all the women have pain...

And this is just one of the many things the article inserted out of nowhere on the topic... so... we gotta keep it on topic with an article that is offtopic???

I would think feminism should be celebrating the advancement in sex robots, finally men can get their sexual release without causing any pain or even worse... disconfort... to anyone...

Why there is so much criticism from feminist team on sex robots?

http://www.feministcurrent.com/2017/04/ ... ependence/

I read this kind of articles... and now I have to think it is actually the moral thing to do, to mate with a bot... because women actually feel physical pain, but they don't say a thing about it, they just endure and suffer all the pain.... like... Jesus... I can show pictures of the didos they put in that hole... how that don't cause any pain??? anyway... just in case to risk it to be with a woman that don't talk and suffer, instead.... the right and moral thing for all men must be to do it with a robot... or in my case, that I don't have money... masturbation...

Here another article... trigger warning: woman holding a plate of tools of self torture and self pain... she can't even tell to herself to stop... apparently...

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/vi ... 7c40008c98

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