What role should Agency play given the aims of the MeToo movement?

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What role should Agency play given the aims of the MeToo movement?

Post by tomokun » Tue Feb 6, 15:56 2018

So, along with the rest of the world it seems, I've been giving a lot of thought to the #Metoo movement, sexual harassment, bad sex, and the various grey areas inherent in certain interpersonal relationships.

I was invited to a men's group that was put together by a friend. It's essentially just a bunch of guys discussing the male experience of things, including the #MeToo movement.

I couldn't give you numbers, but there's a mixture of support, anger at feminists, anger at anti-feminists, confusion, and LOTS of compassion. As a whole, I think confusion and compassion made up the bulk of positions. There were also lots of men that felt marginalized by the #MeToo movement because as victims of sexual assault, they were attacked for participating.

However, one point in particular that has me stymied is the idea of Agency, and it's appropriate place in regards to what is happening with the #Metoo movement. Certainly, men have their agency to contend with: not raping, not sexual harassing, learning to listen, being responsible for their communication, etc. However, it follows that women too should have their own agency, and unless I'm mistaken, that agency should be equal to the agency that men must have, correct?

This is something that I ask because it's not something I've seen come up. Twitter Feminists, in particular, seem to have nothing but disdain for such a notion, but all things being equal, it seems fairly important. There's no argument from me that men have agency in how we treat women, but I would have a real problem with the idea that women do not have an equal responsibility.

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Re: What role should Agency play given the aims of the MeToo movement?

Post by Plotthickens » Tue Feb 6, 17:03 2018

tomokun wrote:
Tue Feb 6, 15:56 2018
There were also lots of men that felt marginalized by the #MeToo movement because as victims of sexual assault, they were attacked for participating.
This is a good point, men need their own movement to address male victims of sexual assault. It's only fair, and certainly all victims of sexual assault deserve consideration. Did ya'all discuss starting such a thing?

However, one point in particular that has me stymied is the idea of Agency, and it's appropriate place in regards to what is happening with the #Metoo movement. Certainly, men have their agency to contend with: not raping, not sexual harassing, learning to listen, being responsible for their communication, etc. However, it follows that women too should have their own agency, and unless I'm mistaken, that agency should be equal to the agency that men must have, correct?

This is something that I ask because it's not something I've seen come up. Twitter Feminists, in particular, seem to have nothing but disdain for such a notion, but all things being equal, it seems fairly important. There's no argument from me that men have agency in how we treat women, but I would have a real problem with the idea that women do not have an equal responsibility.
It seems like you're trying to get at something here. Please note that you're explicitly telling the victims of sexual assault and rape that you "would have a real problem with the idea that women do not have an equal responsibility" in preventing their rapes and assaults, so I'm having a hard time envisioning what you want to hear. What kind of agency would you like to see women taking up? You're too smart to think it would be parallel to what you list, so it can't be:
* not getting raped
* not being sexually harassed
* not being ignored
because that's just stupid as fuck.

So what are you looking for? The only other point you make has this parallel for women: "being responsible for their communication" or "learning to say no clearly"? Those are what #metoo is doing, explicitly and implicitly. It's even changing how we're teaching women in schools, work, government, the media, and interpersonally. It's spawned actual legal and financial backing to give victims some leverage to achieve some sort of justice. So that point of yours is covered.

Are you looking for some other form of responsibility from the victims?
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Re: What role should Agency play given the aims of the MeToo movement?

Post by DarkOne » Wed Feb 7, 11:48 2018

***
Plotthickens wrote:
Tue Feb 6, 17:03 2018
This is a good point, men need their own movement to address male victims of sexual assault...
I'm going to be honest here: if I see men posting with "#MeTooToo" or "#MeThree", my initial reaction WILL be giggling, even if I check it later. This is a lose-lose situation for some men, and even though two wrongs don't make a right, all I can say to that is "welcome to my world, dude."
tomokun wrote:
Tue Feb 6, 15:56 2018
However, it follows that women too should have their own agency, and unless I'm mistaken, that agency should be equal to the agency that men must have, correct?
Agree that agency is in order for both men and women, STRONGLY disagree that the agency must be equal. The goal should be common, but men and women are staring from vastly different positions towards that goal, and the actions needed from each also depends on the initial state. Plot's examples are more in line with my view, even if there's an unspoken generalization of men as perpetrators and women as victims (which is a forgivable generalization seeing as 90% of rape victims are female.) Women have work to do, certainly, in my view especially in the areas of education and communication, but, if you accept the premise that men wield more power, then no, in general, the agency that would fall on women is not equal to the work men have to do.
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Re: What role should Agency play given the aims of the MeToo movement?

Post by Skeezy » Wed Feb 7, 12:18 2018

A part of the issue of the generalizations of rape cases and sexual harassment is many men dont report it. I bet if they did you'd find more men have been sexually harassed/assaulted than ever thought of, although I still dont think it happens as often as it does to women.

Just yesterday I had a conversation with several co workers where I stated that gay men have approached me several times in a very forward and uncofortable way. We all have known each other for a few years so supprisingly each guy stated their similar experiences. We all had experienced this on several occasions. Some were verbal, one guy had another guy brush up against his buttocks twice in a ikea. (*edit)These kinds of things arent usually discussed but rather repressed.



As far as agency I believe there should be. I couldnt give a perfect list myself, off the top pf my head, its just that you can't expect change and results without changing yourself. Women dont have general guidelines of how to treat men. For every thing women can name about women that they dislike men can do the same. Every woman is different and men are just expected to be mind readers and not aggressive. Im not sure what the answers are but women need to think about agency as it could only help the situation. Equality in fairness do not come without change from both sides.
Communication and listening are heavily required.
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Re: What role should Agency play given the aims of the MeToo movement?

Post by DarkOne » Wed Feb 7, 13:03 2018

Skeezy wrote:
Wed Feb 7, 12:18 2018
A part of the issue of the generalizations of rape cases and sexual harassment is many men dont report it.
I have no reason to believe it is more unreported among males than among females. Do you? I don't think underreporting by either sex would significantly skew the statistics towards a higher percentage of male victims. So, for the purposes of this argument, the generalization is valid. In general, it IS true that the victims of rape are predominantly women .
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Re: What role should Agency play given the aims of the MeToo movement?

Post by Plotthickens » Wed Feb 7, 17:10 2018

DarkOne wrote:
Wed Feb 7, 11:48 2018
This is a lose-lose situation for some men, and even though two wrongs don't make a right, all I can say to that is "welcome to my world, dude."
Could eventually turn out good, though, if we stop the attitudes that aggressive sexual predation is acceptable, common, or cute... among any gender. And the same for the stupid-ass idea that you can change a "no" to a "yes". Let's get rid of all that bullshit ASAP. Then everyone, every gender, wins.
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Re: What role should Agency play given the aims of the MeToo movement?

Post by tomokun » Wed Feb 7, 17:42 2018

Thank you for your replies thus far.

A couple of points of clarification:
Plotthickens wrote:
Tue Feb 6, 17:03 2018
Please note that you're explicitly telling the victims of sexual assault and rape that you "would have a real problem with the idea that women do not have an equal responsibility" in preventing their rapes and assaults, so I'm having a hard time envisioning what you want to hear.
The reason that my point of inquiry might be lost is that I am not saying this at all.

With all due respect to the statistical realities of sexual assault, I'm not talking about victims. I'm talking about people.

As people, we all have agency, where agency is defined as "the capacity of an actor to act in a given environment."

Agency comes with certain moral responsibilities, but in order to have these moral responsibilities, one must first have agency.

The #Metoo movement, unless I'm mistaken, in part addresses the scope of sexual assault by men on women. In my view, the other way this could be said is that it addresses the scope of immoral uses of agency, primarily by men against women.

Please note that thus far, no victim of sexual assault, regardless of their gender, has a moral responsibility to their victimizer. Indeed, a victimizer is taking away agency from their victim, which is in part why those actions are immoral. In that agency is something people are entitled to, the removal of that agency by any means is unjust.

So, any act by a victimizer which takes away a woman's agency is, as has been outlined, an immoral use of the victimizer's agency.

#Metoo has CAUSED a cultural discussion where, while the discussion of agency has not been the focus, it suddenly becomes an important topic. The focus is on the actions of bad men, and how wide-spread these actions are. This does not mean that MOST men behave this way (#notallmen), indeed what has been the biggest revelation is that the worst victimizers are repeat offenders with incredibly long lists. If I seem to be saying the obvious, it's because of this - without knowing what percentage of the male population actually qualifies as Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby, the storm that is #Metoo has also pulled in men like Al Franken and Aziz Ansari. Whatever your opinions of them are, there is certainly a clear difference in their behaviors. It is not a defense, in a discussion like this one, to point out that there are actions and indeed their patterns of behavior are orders of magnitude different.

Let's look at my list again:
  • 1. not raping
    2. not sexual harassing
    3. learning to listen
    4. being responsible for their communication
Are either Aziz or Franken guilty of any of the above?

I would say no. While they may not have followed all of the above perfectly, they didn't rape anyone, nothing they did qualifies as harassment (as far as I understand). While Aziz could have done a better job of listening...

This might be a bit of a tangent, but I have recently been spending a lot of time with my fiancee's nephew. He's four, and while I've always been considered fairly patient, the amount of time that it takes to explain how feelings and things work so that he can understand them is daunting. However, it's a hell of a lot easier than having a discussion with an adult who has managed to survive that long without those lessons. The point being, I can't in good conscience consider social awkwardness as an indictment of character. While I can't quantify it precisely, I feel very comfortable in labeling Aziz's behavior as socially awkward. I believe he has been completely sincere.

Which means he is learning to listen to women, and both were responsible for their communications.

For me, I would think this list applies equally to men and women both. I would think any listing of responsibilities that are derived from agency would not be specific to any particular gender. And even should one gender be more often than not the victims of a particular misuse of agency, I don't see a compelling reason why those lists would change. Perhaps rules and regulations might change, but that would also include responsibilities in social interactions.

So yes, for example, if a woman is being harassed by a sexual predator, I believe she has a responsibility to communicate that she does not consent. That may not be the safest option. It may be a stupid option even. And yet, it still qualifies as a moral responsibility that belongs SOMEWHERE in her prioritization. Even I find this point dissatisfying, but the same is true about speaking the truth. It is ALWAYS more moral to be honest than to be dishonest, even if your life is at risk. It is considered to always be the "better" option between the two. Of course that doesn't mean that if someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to tell them the sky is green that it's a good idea to start rational discussion on the matter. Moral truths, like any "rule" simply cannot account for all possible exceptions.

So does this help to better frame what I'm looking for?
DarkOne wrote:
Wed Feb 7, 11:48 2018
The goal should be common, but men and women are staring from vastly different positions towards that goal, and the actions needed from each also depends on the initial state.
I don't disagree with this point, but if you see my definition above, the differences that result from our current circumstances should be addressed by changing our "rules" - and I will add that rules should always be updated to deal with an ever-changing set of circumstances. Barring that, our rules need to be so broad as to make changing them unnecessary. This, I believe, is the premise that American legal rules are founded in. Hence "innocent until proven guilty" and "equal protection under the law", etc.
Skeezy wrote:
Wed Feb 7, 12:18 2018
Every woman is different and men are just expected to be mind readers and not aggressive. Im not sure what the answers are but women need to think about agency as it could only help the situation. Equality in fairness do not come without change from both sides.


This is another common point expressed by the men in the group, and one that I think Chappelle tried to bring up in his stand-point. Essentially, whatever the reasons for our current state of events, part of it is systemic, and almost none of it is considered biological, correct? Therefore, all of us, men and women alike, are the products of a broken system. Which makes us all victims of the system, even if we are also victimizers.

Expressing outrage, working towards vengeance, and being unconcerned with justice or proportionality of consequences seem inevitable, however misplaced and morally inexcusable they may be. And yet that is precisely the sort of attitude that has CAUSED our current circumstances. Instead, we should do as Nelson Mandela said:
For to be free is not merely to cast off one's chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others.
If you talk to a man in a language he understands, that goes to his head. If you talk to him in his language, that goes to his heart.
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Wounded people can only care about their own pain. I understand that. It's true for all of us, that when we are wounded we are driven avoid further pain in the hope that it will heal in time. But if you do not tend to your own wound, covering it up or lashing out does nothing to end the pain.

I think #MeToo has been value and importance. However, I think its a fair concern that our path to fixing a broken system seems to be to hand the reins to those that are so silo'd in their own pain that they believe injustice is a fix for injustice as if poisoning a poisoned well makes things better.

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Re: What role should Agency play given the aims of the MeToo movement?

Post by Plotthickens » Thu Feb 8, 2:48 2018

tomokun wrote:
Wed Feb 7, 17:42 2018
So yes, for example, if a woman is being harassed by a sexual predator, I believe she has a responsibility to communicate that she does not consent.
Why? Because... Because the man doesn't know he's wrong? Because men are too animalistic to have consciences, women must do that heavy emotional labor, even as they're being assaulted? Because you think she should risk injury and death? Because to hell with reality and what really happens during assaults? Because there's got to be something we can blame on the victims?

Why?
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Re: What role should Agency play given the aims of the MeToo movement?

Post by geldofc » Thu Feb 8, 3:44 2018

LOL yeah, you know communicating that could risk further harassment and harm? No one is owed assertive communication and some people can't even or don't want to deal with your assertiveness. I'm all for being blunt to assholes when you feel you're not in danger.
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Re: What role should Agency play given the aims of the MeToo movement?

Post by Plotthickens » Thu Feb 8, 20:38 2018

geldofc wrote:
Thu Feb 8, 3:44 2018
LOL yeah, you know communicating that could risk further harassment and harm? No one is owed assertive communication and some people can't even or don't want to deal with your assertiveness. I'm all for being blunt to assholes when you feel you're not in danger.
Eyep. Sexual assaults are assaults. They create the flight-or-fight response. Requiring someone who is being assaulted to calmly communicate their needs, thoughts, and wants in a polite yet firm tone is either cruel or ignorant.
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Re: What role should Agency play given the aims of the MeToo movement?

Post by Sonic# » Sat Feb 10, 11:12 2018

tomokun wrote: So yes, for example, if a woman is being harassed by a sexual predator, I believe she has a responsibility to communicate that she does not consent.
I find a lot of problems with how "agency" and "responsibility" are being discussed in this thread. One has to do with gender: it feels like woman/(non)consenter and man/pursuer is a binary being formed, where men should not rape and listen and women should speak up about consent. That's really nonproductive and blends two kinds of responsibility: one in which we are attentive to what our partners want, we seek consent and obtain it, and so on, and another where we respond if something goes wrong. I think the first kind of agency matters more, and that all people in sexual situations (women, men, gender nonconforming people) should exhibit that kind of agency: so people should ask before initiating sexual contact and they should step back when that consent isn't enthusiastic or when they've created an environment where social pressure may override their partner's preferences.

Meanwhile, the second kind of agency isn't a "responsibility" because one should have no responsibility for being harmed or ignored. Verbal and nonverbal nonconsent and reluctance are all valid responses to a threat or violation, and there are rational reasons why someone wouldn't speak up explicitly in such a situation: the fear that direct refusal would lead to violence, the social pressure to not cause a scene, the conflict between reconciling the person we've liked up to that point with their behavior in not seeking or listening to our reluctance. If someone hasn't obtained consent in a responsible manner, that person can always make excuses for what they should have known if only they had communicated responsibly. They can always disregard moving away, going silent or stiff, or saying "no" with "well, why didn't you say so?" Instead I'd ask the first person: Why didn't you pay attention? Why didn't you ask?

So everyone should respect the consent of their partner, should be attentive to their partner's words and signs. That's equal agency. If you put your partner in a situation where their consent is already being disregarded, where if they don't speak up you're holding them responsible for what you're doing, then that's on you and not them, whether the result is bad sex, sexual assault, or rape. That's the role agency plays in #metoo - we all listen and respect one another as agents and we take the initiative to make sure people are comfortable with what's going on. It's not some equivocation that questions the behavior of the reluctant consenter more than the aggressor. Ansari was irresponsible in continually pressing forward with sexual contact that his date wasn't responding to and was nonverbally trying to avoid.
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Re: What role should Agency play given the aims of the MeToo movement?

Post by melsbells » Sat Feb 10, 14:40 2018

tomokun wrote:
Wed Feb 7, 17:42 2018
It is ALWAYS more moral to be honest than to be dishonest, even if your life is at risk.
Not intending to cause a tangent, I didn't realize you were a Kantian in the realm of ethics.

I found the original post a bit unclear, I decided to take it in the way that Sonic proposes we consider agency
Sonic# wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 11:12 2018
So everyone should respect the consent of their partner, should be attentive to their partner's words and signs. That's equal agency. If you put your partner in a situation where their consent is already being disregarded, where if they don't speak up you're holding them responsible for what you're doing, then that's on you and not them, whether the result is bad sex, sexual assault, or rape.
Then when I started reading your second post in response to being accused of victim blaming, at first I thought your stance would confirm my initial assumption of what you were proposing, especially given the mention of men's participation in #metoo and many of them being told they weren't welcome there. But instead you confirmed that you were blaming victims for becoming victims when you said
tomokun wrote:
Wed Feb 7, 17:42 2018
Which means he is learning to listen to women, and both were responsible for their communications.
and
tomokun wrote:
Wed Feb 7, 17:42 2018
So yes, for example, if a woman is being harassed by a sexual predator, I believe she has a responsibility to communicate that she does not consent.
If we take an arbitrary person and say that that person has responsibility for not being victimized in the future, that's blaming the victim, even if that arbitrary person is never victimized. Beyond that, the overarching advice in the past has been informing people how not to be victims. Which has been plenty internalized by people thinking they should have said "no" more forcefully, or shouldn't have smiled at that stranger, or didn't fight back fiercely enough, because that's what they've been taught. What's the line when a person removes another person's agency? Drugs? Force? Coercion? Implied threat? Not listening well enough? So when people start suggesting that people not rape, not sexually harass, listen, and communicate, it seems really reasonable that that advice be about the agency of the initiator. So like Plott says,
Plotthickens wrote:
Wed Feb 7, 17:10 2018
stop the attitudes that aggressive sexual predation is acceptable, common, or cute... among any gender
You could adopt neo-Kantianism which is a step towards Utilitarianism in a similar sense that Rule Utilitarianism is a step toward Kantianism. You can do this by making the categories of the categorical imperative less broad. In the case of lying, instead of imagining what the world would be like if everyone always lied, break up the category. Imagine what the world would be like if everyone lied when their safety depended on it and imagine what the world would be like if everyone lied when their safety didn't depend on it. Instead of arriving at the all moral rule to never lie, you discover that it is most moral not to lie when your safety doesn't depend on it and more moral to lie when your safety does depend on it. If we take this moral compass back to the idea of agency when it comes to sexual harassment and rape, we end up with what Sonic said and I quoted at the beginning of this post.

I think I get what you're saying here, how easy it is to be consumed by one's own problems. I can come up with examples where that's the case, but it's not the only reality.
tomokun wrote:
Wed Feb 7, 17:42 2018
Wounded people can only care about their own pain.
This is anecdotal and most of what I have to offer isn't mine to give, but among the people I've met who I know have been raped/sexually abused, the majority of them have had concerns in their woundedness for just about everyone but themselves, not limited to but often focused on the rapist/pedophile and how coming forward might hinder the rapist's life. Personally, that took the form of not disclosing the name to people in my life for fear of influencing interactions with that person.


Plott,
Plotthickens wrote:
Tue Feb 6, 17:03 2018
This is a good point, men need their own movement to address male victims of sexual assault.
I don't understand why their own movement would be better than having them be accepted by #metoo

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Re: What role should Agency play given the aims of the MeToo movement?

Post by Plotthickens » Sat Feb 10, 17:53 2018

melsbells wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 14:40 2018
Plotthickens wrote:
Tue Feb 6, 17:03 2018
This is a good point, men need their own movement to address male victims of sexual assault.
I don't understand why their own movement would be better than having them be accepted by #metoo
Men have different needs. For example, women are shamed for being victims whereas men are ignored; men need colon cancer screenings for the rest of their life after violent rapes, women may need pregnancy assistance or abortions. And those situations have different stigmas attached to them.

Additionally, women are just now getting some visibility where sexual assault is concerned. Instead of horn in on it, make your own. Men can do that for themselves. Can't they? Or do men have to do the asshole thing and take this thing of ours, too?



And, sorry, I couldn't follow along with your response to the other quote of mine. Your language was too specific, it was like if I was talking about mitigation of allium-specific degredations in bioturbination due to repressing springtail molt in black low-o2 soils. Soooo... any chance you could play to the room there champ?
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Re: What role should Agency play given the aims of the MeToo movement?

Post by geldofc » Sat Feb 10, 23:23 2018

I scrolled past an image of a movement they created but it was definitely a mockery. I guess they can't take serious things seriously unless it's to derail, crazy-make, gaslight, or center themselves.
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Re: What role should Agency play given the aims of the MeToo movement?

Post by Plotthickens » Sun Feb 11, 8:50 2018

geldofc wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 23:23 2018
I scrolled past an image of a movement they created but it was definitely a mockery. I guess they can't take serious things seriously unless it's to derail, crazy-make, gaslight, or center themselves.
I'm laughing inside, but it's too serious and sad to really laugh at. I wish men would spend as much time on advocacy, even if it's only for themselves, as they spend on derailing, crazy-making, gaslighting, or centering themselves.
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Re: What role should Agency play given the aims of the MeToo movement?

Post by melsbells » Sun Feb 11, 12:49 2018

Plotthickens wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 17:53 2018
And, sorry, I couldn't follow along with your response to the other quote of mine. Your language was too specific
Sorry for the confusion. That section was still directed at Tomokun in an attempt to give him a way for inner consistency without needing to concede to victim blaming. I was quoting you there to reference back to the conversation in he thread. It does burst my bubble a bit, thinking that I had successfully iterated the concept in an accessible way that wouldn't cause excessive eye rolling from those already familiar with the school of thought.

Given the projected differences in numbers, it's not clear to me that accepting men in #metoo would take any resources away from women. I suppose I'm still not seeing the movement as anything more than a temporary awareness. Maybe with less cynicism on my part, I would see a parallel movement as more beneficial than a joint one.

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Re: What role should Agency play given the aims of the MeToo movement?

Post by Plotthickens » Sun Feb 11, 14:18 2018

melsbells wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 12:49 2018
Plotthickens wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 17:53 2018
And, sorry, I couldn't follow along with your response to the other quote of mine. Your language was too specific
Sorry for the confusion. That section was still directed at Tomokun in an attempt to give him a way for inner consistency without needing to concede to victim blaming. I was quoting you there to reference back to the conversation in he thread. It does burst my bubble a bit, thinking that I had successfully iterated the concept in an accessible way that wouldn't cause excessive eye rolling from those already familiar with the school of thought .
Yeah well my polysyllabic density centers are at different locations than yours. Sorry they're not up to snuff for your conversational heights. Interesting you're still not playing to the room... that's okay, I'm used to people talkin all highfalutin and grinnin while they talk over my head. Enjoying the heights up there in yer ivory tower, M?

Given the projected differences in numbers, it's not clear to me that accepting men in #metoo would take any resources away from women. I suppose I'm still not seeing the movement as anything more than a temporary awareness. Maybe with less cynicism on my part, I would see a parallel movement as more beneficial than a joint one.
Welp, when men need abortions and women need empathatic Big Brother counselors, the movements might coincide. Otherwise it's like asking an OB/GYN to work testicular cancer cases, or ASL interpreters to go work with quadriplegics instead. Sure they're kinda related but ignoring the differences is just shooting everyone in the feets.
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Re: What role should Agency play given the aims of the MeToo movement?

Post by Taurwen » Sun Feb 11, 14:26 2018

No one is putting resources into #MeToo though. It's a campaign meant to raise awareness of how widespread sexual harassment, assault, and rape is.
If people were donating money, specifically money towards medical ramifications of assault and rape, then there would be an argument for splitting up the sexes.
Since the whole campaign relies on the numbers, doesn't it make sense to be as inclusive as possible. Heck, by your definition trans women are excluded, and that strikes me as dangerously close to choosing which victims count enough.

Plotthickens
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Re: What role should Agency play given the aims of the MeToo movement?

Post by Plotthickens » Sun Feb 11, 14:30 2018

Taurwen wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 14:26 2018
No one is putting resources into #MeToo though. It's a campaign meant to raise awareness of how widespread sexual harassment, assault, and rape is.
If people were donating money, specifically money towards medical ramifications of assault and rape, then there would be an argument for splitting up the sexes.
Since the whole campaign relies on the numbers, doesn't it make sense to be as inclusive as possible. Heck, by your definition trans women are excluded, and that strikes me as dangerously close to choosing which victims count enough.
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Skeezy
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Re: What role should Agency play given the aims of the MeToo movement?

Post by Skeezy » Sun Feb 11, 16:07 2018

@Sonic&board

apologies.

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