MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

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Sonic#
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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Sonic# » Fri Mar 2, 7:57 2018

so many verbal demands are being put on the male counterpart as far as consent.
Bull. Ensuring consent is on both partners. Both partners have to keep clued into whether their partner is willing and enthusiastic. Imagining that only men have to do this is just wrong and part of the entire phallocentric enterprise here. You want to require women to act in a certain way even in situations where rationally they shouldn't, all just so that you have to do less work to check in on your partner's well-being. Furthermore, it's a pretty big slap in the face to insist that women who are pressured, sexually assaulted, or raped just should have said no louder or more times. This line of thinking thus falls into victim blaming.

So yes, both men and women need to respect consent. Yes, ideal practice is that everyone is open about what they want and don't want. Yes, both women and men can do enthusiastic consent better. Here's the bull: when someone messes up, you put the blame on women who should be "up front for once?" Come on Skeezy. You're better than that. Don't give rapists, sexual assaulters, and coercers cover by saying a woman wasn't "up front."
Along with more than one person actually saying women may be incapable of saying no.
Who? When? What did they say? Someone may have said that women (and other people) would be in a situation where they would not want to say no, or that saying no might have repercussions, and that communication might be nonverbal and verbal. Do you see the difference between that and saying anyone is incapable of saying no? (In the last thread, only SimpleMan used "incapable," and in a line of thinking that misconstrued what came before.)

It's a strawman that started SimpleMan's slippery slope.

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by DarkOne » Fri Mar 2, 8:38 2018

Skeezy wrote:
Fri Mar 2, 7:25 2018
...

So instead of men blindly being forced to put themselves out there like always, how about somewhere in the conversation about sex, the woman just be upfront about what she consents to as a standard and the man ask for consent on the rest.? Thats all I'm saying and its being rebutled by no, the man should just ask for everything.
Sidestepping the misogynistic generalizations in the first couple of paragraphs, I'm just going to point out the sheer folly in this approach. It reminds me of a deservedly-so much-mocked coworker of mine who was tasked with writing a list of required equipment for a lab test of a mechanical component. Instead of sticking to the task at hand and listing what was required (i.e. thermocouples, pressure sensors, a pressurized air supply, calipers, video recording equipment, ...) this person decided to also include a list of equipment NOT required for the test... Of course when my colleagues saw this list, they started freely adding equipment to the list (flamethrower, glasscutter, hand shovel, tweezers, measuring cup, ...) all of which were valid entries, because, technically, they were not required for the test.

My point, is, from a practical standpoint alone, how about the person with a specific activity in mind request consent from the other party? As opposed to asking the open-ended and potentially irrelevant list of activities to which "she consents to as a standard"? Plus, the very idea of "consenting to as a standard" :lol: I'm sure will be used as a CYA claim "...well, it was listed in your "standard", so how was I supposed to know you weren't up for that one today?" YOU. ASK.
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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Skeezy » Fri Mar 2, 10:13 2018

@sonic and darkOne

I agree sonic, both parties. Its partly situational but in the vast majority the man is trying to please the woman enough so she'll give consent. Im not saying the opposite doesn't happen but this is the vast majority of situations even talked about. Mens practices, are whats being attacked and if people want that to change your going to have to come from a better angle. One that follows what you said by putting responsibility on both parties equally.

We said for women to communicate better as well. I still havent heard anything remotely geared to addressing that. In standard patriarchal practice the man does everything, he's supposed to be a gentleman, cater, treat her like shes a princess, pay, and get consent. The woman acts like a judge and either accepts his advances or doesn't. What Im hearing doesnt change any of that for thw better it only adds to the list of consent rather than equalizing at least part of the scenario for the benefit of both.

Now you can default to every bad scenario women have and use it as a crutch to support but thats not the default for me. Im coming from the basic angle of a man and a woman on a date. When it starts getting close to that prime time how should they approach it? Since this is what is so disputed. Piling consent on the man is not a fair standing it only leaves room for women to be more vague, judgemental and misinterpretid.

Which would not be the case if she were more upfront about whats going down. Instead no, dont be upfront, let him be upfront, women dont have to. You fail to see the hypocrisy in that?

Im sure sexual assaulters and rapists use tons of excuses but Im not talking about them. Their shit. Im talkiny about your average guy trying to stay out of becoming #metoo fodder. So apparently what Im hearing instead of equalizing, women cant and wont help the situation by breaking patriarchal standards of interaction. Just force men to change, thats the answer.

Who cares if some men already find women confusing or if some men have trouble being verbal or fear being judged or may have all sorts of communication issues, lets just focus on womens issues and treat the men all the same, instead of setting new clear standards for both lets just tell him ::continue at your own risk even with consent::, learn to talk sexy even if your a guy that finds talking sexy awkward especially with someone new who you haven't fully learned yet.

People are different some people are quirky. All men are not the same. A lot of men already dont find approaching women easy and vice versa. Some grown ass men, especially ones coming out of long running failed marraiges, even have trouble speaking to women. Lets just pile up the demands on them. Women are either too weak or too perfect, they shouldnt have to do a damn thing.

I never said men shouldn't have to ask for consent but if you ever have an issue and change nothing to help fix it, dont expect much change
Last edited by Skeezy on Fri Mar 2, 11:10 2018, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Sonic# » Fri Mar 2, 11:08 2018

I think I hear you. You're saying that obtaining consent should of course go both ways, but so far it feels like only men are being asked to do this?

Alternatively, men are now being asked to do what feminist women have tried to do for decades.
In standard patriarchal practice the man does everything, he's supposed to be a gentleman, cater, treat her like shes a princess, pay, and get consent.
What do you think feminists think of "standard patriarchal practice?" That's not an excuse here, because most of the feminists who are calling for both men and women to practice enthusiastic consent also want to see dating norms changed so that women aren't put on a pedestal.

Like anything else, some women do expect to be condescended to, because systemic sexism is such that many women have been raised to accept this paradigm. So it's up to every person to be the change they want to see. I respect people I date; I don't put them on a pedestal. I expect everyone to use enthusiastic consent, but practice it in such a way that we're good even if my date hasn't learned to do that. I accept that not everyone I date is okay with that, but my desire to have sex does not trump my responsibility to make sure my partner is into it. In other words, I'm practicing the same amount of communicative responsibility that any partner (irrespective of gender) should practice, and it's only by practicing it that we (inclusive - all people) have any shot at changing the patriarchal norms currently in wide distribution.
Im talkiny about your average guy trying to stay out of becoming #metoo fodder.
Listen. Learn. It's not a high bar to be a decent human being. And if "your average guy" does end up having what was classified in the last thread as "bad sex" but it's clear that he's continuing to learn, so be it. He made a mistake. Practically speaking, it's unlikely anything will ever happen to him outside of that interaction and relationship. He's fine.

One problem is that, before #metoo, these men often didn't listen and learn (did they have no incentive? no pressure? were they never taught to?), and so they entered patterns of behavior that habitually made sex worse for women than for men. Now they're being asked to treat their partners like people, and being asked to expect that their partners treat them like people too. That can be jostling, but that's ultimately fair to everyone involved.
women cant and wont help the situation by breaking patriarchal standards of interaction
Many women can and do, in the face of substantial risk. Just because some women don't, that's an excuse for men to slack off? No. The burden is shared.

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Skeezy » Fri Mar 2, 11:34 2018

Sonic# wrote:
Fri Mar 2, 11:08 2018


Many women can and do, in the face of substantial risk. Just because some women don't, that's an excuse for men to slack off? No. The burden is shared.
Im curious about the, substantial risk?

@darkOne

I sometimes may slip into a misogynistic view but I see misandristic views from others as well, at least in my opinion


A lot of what I say is based on what I think and what I know is shared opinion. Just as much as women bash men, men also bash women and I try to stay clear of that but, sometimes I don't as I have my own strong opinions and not being able to subside them on certain topics is a fault I have. Its very hard to when general statements about men are made, not in this topic but in general. During this week I've been wondering if I'm accidentally trolling, as majority of my posts have been arguementive in the past 2 weeks and I fear I can't help it. I like talking about these sorts of things but honestly I may never see eye to eye on a lot of things. Twice I was about to post topics myself but they would have been arguementive so I decided not to. Such as the woman who wants the word man eliminated from language *sigh*.

I think Ive reached the peak of what I can do with this discussion.

@sonic
I hear you, you hear me. We partly see each other. I think thats the most that can be done for now.

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by SimpleMan » Fri Mar 2, 12:38 2018

@Sonic

Here a quote:

-"...That's too simplistic, and fails to account for the context (one where there are logical reasons to not be too direct - worries about male disappointment, male fragility, male violence)..."

First quote in, already a list of 3 reasons why a woman is incapable of saying "no". So lest start with this quote here, though there is a lot more quotes that i can bring over... but it is more than enough here, so...

My claim is that any of this reason for no being capable of saying no, can also become reasons of why a woman might say "yes" when she does not want to...

- Worries about male disappointment: The woman say "yes" because he likes whores and she does not want him to think she is too modest for his taste.

- Male Fragility: She feel petty for the sad guy and decide to pity fuck him, so even though she likes him as a friend, and she think he is a nice guy, she does not really like him as as sexual partner, but still she told him yes, so poor guy don't cry.

- Male violence: She thinks if she doesn't say yes to him he might as well full rape her, so out of fear of being raped she decided to agree to bad sex instead, so yes say yes.

There you have it... all the logical reasons why a woman can't directly say "no", turn out to be equally logical reasons why a woman say "yes" when she didn't wanted.

Now here is my alternative to all this:

SAY NO.

If you don't want to have sex with someone, then just SAY NO. as clear and simple as that. Here is how it plays:

-Worries of male disappointment: SAY NO, if he thinks less of you because of that, then... whatever... his standards are his problem, if you don't fit his bill, then just move on and find a guy that fits your bill.

-Male Fragility: SAY NO, if the guy cries about it, well, that is sad... but it is not your responsibility. It is not your job to do charity with your vagina to all the sad guys out there... think of it this way... you are doing him a favour by saying no... that way at least he will not be attached to you that don't really love him that way, and he might can find someone that does.

-Male Violence: I know it is hard but... SAY NO. If the guy become physical violent after this, then at least, you know for sure it is a rape, latter on make sure the law makes him pay for it... there is also the statistically superior opportunity that the guy decides it is not worth the legal hazard and just back off. If you can, carry with you some pepper spray or a stun gun.. something, so you have better opportunity to defend yourself.. but giving in out of fear, in my opinion, is not really the right option... the right thing to do is to clearly and unquestionably SAY NO.

Here is a song that might help women out there to use the "NO" word, by feminist celebrity Meghan Trainor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMTAUr3Nm6I

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by geldofc » Fri Mar 2, 13:27 2018

lol if you don't think women say no and reject sex, all the time. What bubble are you living in sir. Majority of consent issues have to do with male entitlement and narcissism, manipulation, and hatred of women.
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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Skeezy » Fri Mar 2, 13:40 2018

@geldofc

I was going to stay out from this point. Your posts tend to suck me back in lol.

With the entitlement, male narcissism, manipulation and hatred of women.

Just like A Simple Man and myself are called out for misogynistic generalizations, those are misandristic generalizations. No standards should be set in that manner. These are pre-assumptions.

Not saying they dont exist but your arguement can't be based off this. If they are Im sure A Simple man has just about as many generalizations as I do to fight back with and for you to deny, which wouldnt be productive

Its just like him or I coming off like every woman is a whore, goldigger etc. Its just untrue. One of my main beefs with MGTow by the way aside from them using prostitutes as a plus

Also hes literally quoting things people have said about women not saying no
Last edited by Skeezy on Fri Mar 2, 13:58 2018, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Aum » Fri Mar 2, 13:40 2018

I don't relate to this issue. In the gay world sex is openly discussed and agreed upon before it ever happens. Men even discuss limits on what can and can't happen, their likes and dislikes, etc.

To me it would be kind of crazy to have sex without talking about sex beforehand.
The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Skeezy » Fri Mar 2, 13:45 2018

@aum

I believe straight people could learn a lot from that example

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Taurwen » Fri Mar 2, 13:46 2018

Aum wrote:
Fri Mar 2, 13:40 2018
To me it would be kind of crazy to have sex without talking about sex beforehand.
What an amazing concept.

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Sonic# » Fri Mar 2, 14:40 2018

^ WHOA TALK ABOUT SEX WUT

SimpleMan says this is a statement about women being incapable of saying no.
SimpleMan quoted Sonic#, who wrote:"...That's too simplistic, and fails to account for the context* (one where there are logical reasons to not be too direct - worries about male disappointment, male fragility, male violence)..."
Yet what is actually described is not a lack of capability but concern for how the other person will react. (I seriously think you have an English comprehension issue here.) We all should try to seek consent openly. In situations where one person technically could say no (or "frugbutt" or "perderberpoopow") but has reasons not to say it too loudly or too many times, it's on the other person to use their words to figure it out. Communicating responsibly about sex does mean that sometimes you don't get sex. That's fine though, because it also means you're far less likely to put someone in an uncomfortable situation just to get off.

Nowhere does that mean that anyone is incapable of consent. In fact, what's going on is often the opposite: that reluctant person has read the situation capably and realized that "no" isn't working. So yes, you're using a strawman borne from your own misunderstanding of statements made in the previous thread.

*The layered irony of SimpleMan failing to account for the context of this quote has not escaped me.

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by rowan » Fri Mar 2, 15:17 2018

Aum wrote:
Fri Mar 2, 13:40 2018
To me it would be kind of crazy to have sex without talking about sex beforehand.
seriously, this
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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by SimpleMan » Fri Mar 2, 21:54 2018

Aum wrote:
Fri Mar 2, 13:40 2018
I don't relate to this issue. In the gay world sex is openly discussed and agreed upon before it ever happens. Men even discuss limits on what can and can't happen, their likes and dislikes, etc.

To me it would be kind of crazy to have sex without talking about sex beforehand.
Well, we are talking about women problems to communicate... so it doesn't surprise me that a couple of guys have fantastic communication...

Now the question is... how lesbians do? each send a set of confusing non-verbal clues and then both go around claiming that the other one rape her?

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Aum » Sat Mar 3, 7:58 2018

SimpleMan wrote:
Fri Mar 2, 21:54 2018
Aum wrote:
Fri Mar 2, 13:40 2018
I don't relate to this issue. In the gay world sex is openly discussed and agreed upon before it ever happens. Men even discuss limits on what can and can't happen, their likes and dislikes, etc.

To me it would be kind of crazy to have sex without talking about sex beforehand.
Well, we are talking about women problems to communicate... so it doesn't surprise me that a couple of guys have fantastic communication...

Now the question is... how lesbians do? each send a set of confusing non-verbal clues and then both go around claiming that the other one rape her?
I don't understand your focus on women failing to communicate when it's a dual problem. When people are aroused and bodies take over, sometimes impulses cause assumptions in what is and isn't okay. I'm not even talking about rape, just general courtesy.

I also don't understand why you're so focused on false rape allegations when they are so rare. You make it sound like women everywhere are running around calling bad sex rape when that isn't true at all.

And it's not a "couple of guys"... it's the entire gay world, lesbians included. The gay world is steeped in non-traditional communication because we've been outsiders forever, so talking sex up front is not too troublesome. I think hetero people are so governed by centuries of traditionally defined rules and behaviour that communication is still hindered. Also we live in a pervasively misogynist society that apologizes for rape, the consequence of which is that there's not much in the way of holding men accountable to consent culture.
The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by SimpleMan » Sat Mar 3, 10:23 2018

@Aum

"I don't understand your focus on women failing to communicate..."

It is not me the one with the claim that women have problems communicating...

The way I understand it is that both of them bad sex and rape must have a guilty party, someone that can be blame for it... Now, it have being advanced this idea, in several pages , actually, that if the problem was off communication, then the responsible party is the man only... It was pretty much told to me that it is the responsibility of the man to make sure the woman get to express her opinion.

Also notice that all the giving reasons why the woman can't talk are... the man.... yes he is to blame on this too... so the situation is that if the man is the problem, then he can't be the solution... if the woman is afraid to say no to a man, for instance... if he coached her to talk what wants, she might end up saying yes out of the same fear...

Then again, this is not my idea, this is the idea that was presented to me.

I am trying to make woman responsible for their own decisions to not communicate what they want.... keep in mind that being responsible is a sign of maturity, adults have to be responsible... the arguments that construct bad communication into the man sole responsibility and free the woman from all responsibility... then again it is impossible to talk about equality when there not equal responsibility... the responsible party always get to make the decisions.

"I also don't understand why you're so focused on false rape allegations when they are so rare"

How do you know? almost every divorce comes with allegations of violence, and sexual perversions... just starting from there...

It all comes down for what you understand as rape... and what you understand as false...

Few post ago I posted a link where a feminist explain why woman should be able to withdraw consent, even years after the fact... The only flaw they found on that link is that it was posted on a WordPress website.

"And it's not a "couple of guys"... it's the entire gay world, lesbians included."

I have not idea about the gay world... someone posted something on the line that he and his sexual partners have great communication... I just said I was not surprised... You come here making generalizations, several generalizations, actually... by default I am more skeptical of those...

I do not oppose gays to have rights, I honestly don't care, it does not bother me... But also I do not do activism for that stuff neither, I don't have interest on learning about the gay community, gay culture, or whatever it is call.

Now said that, I have read on this forums a couple of interesting things that are making me think if I should check it out... Do they let non-gay hang around their places? like if I feel like going to a club and party for a couple of hours... you think that will be OK, or this clubs are for gay only?

I don't go to normal clubs anymore because... for some reason there is a lot of allegations women are making... they have honestly run guys out of many places... But sometimes I kinda get nostalgic and would like to go to a club to party, but would not like to end up the night talking to a security guy, or worse to a cop...

Here another question... in case I decide to try to party on a gay club, is there a way to let them know right upfront that I am not interested on romantic stuff?

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Sonic# » Sat Mar 3, 12:24 2018

SimpleMan wrote:
Fri Mar 2, 21:54 2018

Well, we are talking about women problems to communicate... so it doesn't surprise me that a couple of guys have fantastic communication...

Now the question is... how lesbians do? each send a set of confusing non-verbal clues and then both go around claiming that the other one rape her?
Admin note: this post resulted in a tempban for trolling, with its weird combination of misogyny and false rape accusations.

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Pikachu » Wed Mar 7, 4:54 2018

There's no reason for a straight man, much less a MGTOW to ask what lesbians do in the bedroom. It doesn't concern him on any level. Nor should he expect lesbians to answer to him about their sexual practices.

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by SimpleMan » Thu Mar 8, 2:31 2018

Pikachu wrote:
Wed Mar 7, 4:54 2018
There's no reason for a straight man, much less a MGTOW to ask what lesbians do in the bedroom. It doesn't concern him on any level. Nor should he expect lesbians to answer to him about their sexual practices.
Yet I asked... and someone actually answered....

So???

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Skeezy » Thu Mar 8, 12:51 2018

@Pikachu

To be fair. That portion of the exchange was rather simple and I felt aum answered him very definitively. It was relevant to the conversation because of the statement aum made that gay people simply dont have this issue because proper comminication is standard amongst the gay community. In response simpleman asked about lesbians (since womens line of clear communication was in question) and aum answered its the same as gay men and explained why, which is relevant to the conversation.

It actually raises some notion of whether this communication of consent hinderance/barrier/fault might be exclusive to heterosexual social practices instead of gender, as simple man and myself were kind of hung up on women using indirect communication or depending on the man to ask, instead of both parties directly communicating.

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by SimpleMan » Fri Mar 9, 1:25 2018

I actually find it interesting, this is the second forum debate where I am aware of Pikachu trying to control my behaviour...

In here he staring out tell me that it is not my place to ask a certain question... in the other forum debate he is trying to educate me in all his silly "etiquettes"... I am wondering if this is a characteristic of his personality, or perhaps he thinks he have some ground to moderate me?

At least we have established, based on the giving answer to my question.... that women can indeed communicate clearly and without any confusions... at least lesbians can do it... so why heterexesuals are so bad at it?

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Pikachu » Fri Mar 9, 16:45 2018

A MGTOW asking about lesbian communication on a feminist forum. Clearly this is "going your own way" in the noisiest way possible. A strange mixture of "going" yet sticking around to obcessively try to make women "regret" what they'll be missing, which is an endeavour only a self loathing character could embark upon.

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Plotthickens » Sat Mar 10, 8:48 2018

Pikachu wrote:
Fri Mar 9, 16:45 2018
A strange mixture of "going" yet sticking around to obcessively try to make women "regret" what they'll be missing
This is like an ex yelling insults from the sidewalk. Yes, we know you're not going to fuck us anymore. If we say we're crushed and sad will you go away?
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