MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

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SimpleMan
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MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by SimpleMan » Mon Feb 26, 20:52 2018

This topic is not directly related to MGTOW, except it to be one of the reasons why a man might decides to go MGTOW.

The main thesis of this post is that if a person can't say "no", then for the same reasons that person can't say "yes". Hence invalidating the doctrine of enthusiastic consent.

Starting with a simple example... It is suggested that a woman does not say "no" because she is afraid that the man react in a violent way, but on the same token, it is logical to assume that this same woman might say "yes" out of the exact same fear... I know the idea of a rape where the victim is enthusiastically saying "yes" out of fear sounds strange, but it is not totally impossible that such thing can happen. Any giving excuse of why a woman can't say "no" is an equally valid excuse of why a woman can't say "yes".

The core of the problem is not that the the woman can't say no, but if this is the case then she can't neither say yes... for the exact same reason. Some states have pass legislation to implement the so call "yes means yes", where it was apparent that they understood what was not acceptable to do, but as time rolls by it was then evident that there is not such thing as a enthusiastic, 100% honest, with zero doubts "yes"... every yes comes with a question mark.

To give an example of this, a company developed a mobile application where both parties install this app on their phones, the man send a sex request to the woman and the woman can choose "yes" or "no"... the same weekend the app was released, the first rape allegation happened, accordingly to the woman she let the phone unlocked and unattended for few minutes while she went to the bathroom, in those minutes the man sent the invitation, took her phone and choose the "yes" option, then, acordenlly to her, he raped her latter that nigth.

The app developers took down the app after the incident, while they improve it in such a way that there is not question about the yes, they did consider a video recording, for instance, and many other means to make a solid "yes", eventually they gave up on this app idea, because... all "yes" come with a question mark... was she forced or drugged to make the recording? and so on... the conclusion always leads to the same, if a person can't say "no" then that person can't say "yes" neither.

The state legislators that have pass this laws can't give a clear answer of what is a proper and unquestionable "yes".

Affirmative consent means that:

No means no
maybe means no
slow down means no
silence means no
yes means ?

This is the doctrine that teaches that women are legally incapable of consenting. Hence all sex is of questionable consent. Proceed at your own risk.

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Skeezy » Tue Feb 27, 15:07 2018

To be honest I'm so glad my teenage years was at the start of the information age.

Its hard enough to stumble through a learning experience without any type of instruction without social complicated, vague, and restricitive rules. I understand consent but consent in this decade is all over the place.

Im slightly appauled by the thought that humans need an app to be sexual but its not suprising given people can't agree on many issues about consent.

However I know I only have one perspective. Wether I think anything is right, wrong, logical, or illogical. Not just male and female but one also one perspective from one social status etc.

Should we all be catering to each others needs? Should we be more selfish with our own? As much I agree with consent I find it hard to agree with everything said about it. It was a much simpler time when yes meant yes. Of course even during or at anytime if she changes her mind to no, then you should stop. Now, she might say no, or maybe, or have a funny look, bad body language, she may not be in tune with whats going on and about a dozen other things brought up.


Women are going to be women and men are going to be men. No matter what guidelines you set peoples nature is just that. Sure there should be a standard but just like every woman is different, men are different. I've been a non selfish lover but I always feel like a large part of mens reputation, is determined by the selfish ones. Could just be my personal perspective. So a large part of guidelines is partly women dealing with shitty men. (Imo many women are attracted to deceptive alpha nature and imo most men who outwardly appear alpha, are known to be selfish lovers) From their supposed lack of power to speak up to these men, now its implied and suggested that men need constant conesent throughout the evening from moment to moment. So instead of letting yourself indulge, you should be more concerened about reading her mood and stopping if it seems like she doesnt want to since shes not outright going to say what she wants or feels, its on men to fumble their way through the situation.

All this is despite tons of random gray areas.
An example of conesentual non consentual sex.

I used to be with a girl who would pass out when she would orgasm. Now does sex become non consentual when she passes out during? A few times I was near finishing so I did, just a few more strokes. So at the point she passes out, mid stroke, do I become a rapist? She's no longer awake so she cant say yay or nay. On the other hand most men know when your within like 8-15 pumps from finishing its extremely hard to just stop. Its doable but should I feel bad about not stopping for 15 seconds after she noticibly collapses?

Im sure at least a few women would say yes. In situations involving consent, the man is given no headway for his obvious throughout all of mankinds nature, not even a little bit.

As you quoted and many here have, "proceed at your own risk." Which is what Ive always had to do and done. As much as I would like to appear a consentual angel, Ive had to make split decision choices from initiating sex to during sex. I don't feel like I've ever raped anyone.

Ive had women initiate sex with me without asking or even saying a word. I didnt have a problem with it and if I would have definitely would have said no.

I was kind of put down for my way of not asking for consent when initiating. Because I have a non verbal way to figure things out in steps. I can usually get a non verbal read with each step leading up to sex. Now Im not them, but from my perspective it was good way to see, without diving in. Now I hear no, you need better consent. Which is fine but asking assumes you can say yes or no. Which you could do at anytime through the non verbal way. Through these discussions, I'm so glad that I'm already happily married.

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by geldofc » Tue Feb 27, 20:20 2018

Lol, I don't know anyone who is actually attracted to alpha pua stuff other than naive and desperate people and it's insulting to say many women like that.
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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Skeezy » Wed Feb 28, 6:14 2018

A little off topic.

Lol of course you would say that but men watch women be attracted to alpha nature from school days on up.

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Mordak » Wed Feb 28, 7:32 2018

Always go for verbal consent. If you're trying pua moves on a drunk chick or a young woman that makes you kinda a massive scumbag.
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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Skeezy » Wed Feb 28, 8:05 2018

@mordak

Well but lets say its not a scumbag.
Lets say its just a boy and a girl or man and a woman.
1. Embrace
2. Kiss
.... Nvm

This is almost like running the bases. How far will you goy before she stops you.

I just dont see men stopoing and asking hey, is ok if I touch ypur breast? Is it ok if i grab here? Is it ok if I kiss your neck?

Im sorry Ive never been like that and I dont know anyone who is.

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Mordak » Wed Feb 28, 8:47 2018

When one is getting to know their new interest, consent MUST be the highest priority until you and your partner are more settled and have discussed likes and dislikes. Hell, its different for every individual, but I've never met a chick who likes their boob honked at a nightclub, or being kissed without permission. I've never met a bloke who likes having their butt or their groin grabbed by strangers, either.

This MGTOW stuff is really suited to another place. No one here is going to argue or debate. We're for feminists. If MGTOW wanna be feminists, they gotta get rid of their old rule book. We've been sitting here for over 15 years dealing with re-educating people.

I'm really hoping none of you decided to try the whole red-pill pua way to get a girlfriend. If you cant shape up, clean up and make yourself an approachable person, no woman is going to look sideways at ya. Men should start putting more effort in instead of expecting women to just stop in the street and start sucking their dick because they sprayed a bit of deoderant.
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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Skeezy » Wed Feb 28, 9:26 2018

@mordak

Getting to know each other is a process. Its always been bad dating ettiquette not to be too grabby/sex crazed in the getting to know each other phase. If comfortable enough you can even discuss likes and dislikes before ever getting into anything sexual. Extreme things like anal, or choking, clips etc should definitely be consented to beforehand.

basic things like touching or kissing are usually read by body language. We all know that move where the guys yawbs and slips his arm around her or she refuses it. Theres always been steps to intamacy leading up to sex as non verbal communication.


If you consent to sex Im not asking for every little move I make, thats a tad ridiculous. If I'm going to do something out of the ordinary then I'll probably ask if its ok. If someone is that particular about sexual acts they should probably be up front about that during conversation.
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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by SimpleMan » Wed Feb 28, 9:56 2018

Well... I don't know where the whole PUA stuff is coming from... anyway...

@Skeezy

Some of things you say sound odd, even for me... specially some consent ideas, that line about you don't need to worry about this stuff because you are married, ringed all sort of alarms in my brain... but that is probably because I got a full feminist education and sometimes it comes up...

@mordak

What if someone says that women needs to clean up their act, drop some pounds, put on make up, a skirt, and learn how to cook???

It always amaze me to see how much men are shamed for having any form of standards, when it comes to partnership, but women somehow have long list of standards that are perfectly acceptable... But just to make it clear... MGTOW does not have any plans that include or need women, so we do not need to change anything to be more acceptable to women, whatever women out there are dreaming about their perfect man... we don't care... it is not us... but I wish them well, and I hope they find that perfect man they are looking for... it is not me... thank you very much.

PUA and MGTOW are not compatible, as a matter of fact we dislike each other. There is fundamental philosophical differences between the 2... even if both come from a similar place "the red pill", what we decided to do about it is completely opposite.

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Skeezy » Wed Feb 28, 13:38 2018

@simpleman

Perhaps Im just old fashioned. My age escapse me sometimes, Im not young anymore. When I was younder no ment no. You had nice guys and then you had assholes.

Nice guys cater to women, assholes are selfish. Mind you assholes get way more women due to alpha male type confidence.

Im just wary of how far do feminsts want consent to go? Inversley should men just back off and let women make all the moves since me putting my arm around a woman is nowadays, "continue at your own risk"

Thats what Im talking about. I've never ran into a woman who wanted such thorough consent but this is what Im hearing here. Im not saying its vile but common how bout you just tell me what you like, instead of the guy asking or possibly overstepping boundaries if they are that picky about men interacting with them.

Its a full female/feminist sided view which doesnt make total sense to me. I can understand asking for consent for sex. I can understand asking consent for extremes but if I cant build up a natural vibe to our sexuality, Im sorry its a turnoff.

Its like they want to put obligation, wants and teach men how to better suit them. Instead of saying to themselves maybe I should communicate and discuss things since Im so picky. No he just should just have to ask for everything. Thats what I find ridiculous.

I hear people in general but majority women, imposing general rules that men should follow. Though I see no one except a small few proposing that they help fix their own problem. Its a two way street and if you want men to take that seriously your going to have to at least impose ideas that arent completely one sided. Although a simple conversation would solve everything except assault cases

All that combined with the discussion of for one reason or another its hard for women to say no, is shunning any responsibility for outcomes. I know everyone didnt say that but the fact that was even mentioned vs so much responsibility is being put on men to just figure it out. Men have been trying to "figure out" women for how long now? For the most part we have, just not the way women wanted to be figured out.

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by geldofc » Wed Feb 28, 16:27 2018

LMFAO @ putting on deodorant and expecting their dicks sucked. And most of them can’t even do that and expect to be worshipped. No fucking thanks.
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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by SimpleMan » Wed Feb 28, 21:06 2018

@geldofc

I put deodorant on... I even put Johann Maria Farina on... but not for a woman :)

@Skeezy

It is true that feminism have not figure out a working model for relationships that they be happy with... they are experimenting all over the place, for instance a guy in UK was accused of rape but it was proven that he was innocent, however the judge ruled that if he wants to have sex, he have to bring the partner to a police station, get some paperwork done, and then have the sex after 24 hours upon approval:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 99816.html

This feminists are experimenting with men this way, too gauge what men will put up with... This man in here went MGTOW monk level, I understand, so this particular experiment is a failure.

France is on their way to pass a law that makes catcalling illegal... yes ilegal as in jail time.

Your comment here:

"should men just back off and let women make all the moves since me putting my arm around a woman is nowadays, "continue at your own risk""

Honestly men does not have the power to pose any of this, it is what it is... And you are correct men should avoid putting thierms on women...

This is pictures of some celebrities with women, please notice the hands and arms of this celebrities, this is the new hug:

https://i.imgur.com/4F5O0gl.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Rgk1LCaY7_Y/S ... 934489.jpg

http://cdn2.teen.com/wp-content/uploads ... -photo.jpg

https://pics.me.me/ques-next-mark-three ... 475816.png

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3c/38/36/3c38 ... theron.jpg

http://epicpix.com/wp-content/uploads/2 ... ff_340.jpg

https://piximus.net/media/24286/hover-hand-32.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WENxd7TwxMM/U ... shian!.jpg

And so on and go on... THe thing is this... the woman can get to claim #metoo... you see... if the hug was a bit too long... a bit to tight... the man career will be over... no that many people out there is daring to touch a woman... So if women are having so much problem saying "no" it looks like man have not really any problem on saying it.

Of course in few months this pictures will be constructed as this men invaded the personal space of women, and then claim victim status... or at least that is a possibility... then we will not see pictures like this again...

Or this woman's solution... that actually is pretty aggressive, if you ask me... did he consent her grabbing his hand and place it on her body?

https://i.redditmedia.com/-pBy4wnQnHkSQ ... 28d2cfff59

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Storage and Disposal » Thu Mar 1, 3:25 2018

All right, I'll bite. What celebrities' careers ended from hugs that lasted too long during fan pics?

You mean people in France are at risk for paying a small fine for harassing women from the privacy of their slow-moving vehicles??? What an outrage!!!

The notion that women are incapable of consent is very troubling. And to say that it's common for a woman to be into it and then claim otherwise later is ludicrous.
Skeezy wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 15:07 2018

All this is despite tons of random gray areas.
An example of conesentual non consentual sex.

I used to be with a girl who would pass out when she would orgasm. Now does sex become non consentual when she passes out during? A few times I was near finishing so I did, just a few more strokes. So at the point she passes out, mid stroke, do I become a rapist? She's no longer awake so she cant say yay or nay. On the other hand most men know when your within like 8-15 pumps from finishing its extremely hard to just stop. Its doable but should I feel bad about not stopping for 15 seconds after she noticibly collapses?

Im sure at least a few women would say yes.
It's only gray if you think she might not be ok with it. And, really, if that's the case... then that's not gray. That's something you shouldn't do.

Also, ending sex 8 pumps short is pretty easy. You just take your dick out. It's not that hard. It's not like it's made of glue shortly before you have an orgasm.
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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by SimpleMan » Thu Mar 1, 7:13 2018

@Storage

"All right, I'll bite. What celebrities' careers ended from hugs that lasted too long during fan pics?"

It is all over the media, and no just celebrities... It is not about what the man did but about how the woman feel about it... if she feel uncomfortable then the can make her #metoo brownie points... for some people it can add up really fast, 20+ accusation in few days...

So they never going to present it as a case where a fan hug for a picture ended up on metoo... they will present it as he pressed her body against his a bit to hard, and his hand was a bit too low, and she was not really feeling comfortable about it, because she didn't wanted the picture in the first place bu the friends pressure her... and so on and go on...

Perhaps I should compile a list of things the men did... not how the women feel about it, but what actually the men did for ending up under the bus of this hashtag...

"You mean people in France are at risk for paying a small fine for harassing women..."

This is what I understand what is the problem with this.

In the process of courtship it is expected that the man makes the first move. Or the first set of moves... hence he will for instance invite a drink in a club, or say something spicy to a woman walking by. Then again it is up to how the woman feel about the man... not the act the man did, but in this case, about the man, if she likes the man she will take the complement, if she does not like the man... then it is call harassment and she can call the police?

So, if a handsome man does the catcalling from the comfort of his ferrari, for example, he might get better results than an ugly man from an old Renault... the general take on this is that some men are not going to be criminalized for what they do but for who they are.

So now normal courtship comes with criminal records as part of the risk taken, while before it was the rejection and some tag like "creep"... Then again the risk is getting up, the benefit is actually getting down.. this is the basic maths of MGTOW.

I would not risk it just because the "creep" tag... but some men might do, will be still willing to risk it for a criminal tag?

You might think I am exaggerating... then again, please explain to me how a man is supposed to approach a woman that can't end up in a "small fine"?

"The notion that women are incapable of consent is very troubling"

It is indeed, but this is not what we are getting into...

"And to say that it's common for a woman to be into it and then claim otherwise later is ludicrous."

It happens all the time...

Didn't even took me that long to find pages and pages on this topic, here an example:

"Here’s the thing: it is possible to consent to having some experience and then, sometime in the future, not consent to having had that experience."
https://bandanablog.wordpress.com/2013/ ... elt-sense/

Just read on that link, you will find how "ludicrous" some feminists can get...

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Skeezy » Thu Mar 1, 8:23 2018

Storage and Disposal wrote:
Thu Mar 1, 3:25 2018

Also, ending sex 8 pumps short is pretty easy. You just take your dick out. It's not that hard. It's not like it's made of glue shortly before you have an orgasm.
I beg to differ. Yeah sounds simple however it goes against human nature. Lets say we have been going at it for about an hour. Same scenario 8 pumps away, she collapses. Now If Im close to a release which is what Ive spent over an hour building up with everything consentual and I have no idea when sex is happening again, you really think a guy is going to just stop in the moment? Its may happen but not likely its a split decision.

Oh well, the sex wasn't important to me anyway... Yeah I just dont see that being the most chose especially not with younger men whos hormones are on red alert. As much as guys are trying to get laif what do you really think is the most likely scenario?

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Storage and Disposal » Thu Mar 1, 9:19 2018

Ah, those celebrities. How could I forget about them and their careers that were cut short?

And wordpress? The comment section in the article is gold, by the way.
Skeezy wrote:
Thu Mar 1, 8:23 2018
Lets say we have been going at it for about an hour. Same scenario 8 pumps away, she collapses. Now If Im close to a release which is what Ive spent over an hour building up with everything consentual and I have no idea when sex is happening again, you really think a guy is going to just stop in the moment? Its may happen but not likely its a split decision.

Oh well, the sex wasn't important to me anyway... Yeah I just dont see that being the most chose especially not with younger men whos hormones are on red alert. As much as guys are trying to get laif what do you really think is the most likely scenario?
And speaking in terms of pumps is ridiculous. We could be imagining very different measurements of time and awareness, etc. My point is if you have enough time to be of your wits enough to ask yourself if she'd be ok with it and arrive at the answer "maybe not," then you have enough time to stop there.
"He weeps for he has but one small tongue with which to taste an entire world." - Dr. Mungmung

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Skeezy » Thu Mar 1, 11:11 2018

@Storage and Disposal

I can ses your giving the benefit of the doubt which fine. I agree there is time to make a choice. I just believe majority of men would still finish regardless of wether their going to feel guilty about it or not.

Truly, I think we are both right, but its up to the individual.

Its a tricky situation. One that relies a lot on inner morality. Honestly, I stopped the 1st 2 times as it freaked me out but it was mostly because I was hoping she was ok. I
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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Sonic# » Thu Mar 1, 11:58 2018

It is interesting to see the argument shift in so little time from a slippery slope argument (because "no" can be communicated in multiple ways, there is no way for women to say "yes"? naaaaah) to a phallocentric debate about what number of "pumps" before a man's climax does he become unable to pull out.

I haven't had time to respond in more detail to any of the claims being made. On the thread's face, it seems like much more emphasis has been put on whether men can get what they want than on the idea of consent as a communicative exchange. The version presented by SimpleMan and then elaborated by Skeezy and Storage is almost exclusively heterosexual, normative, and male-centered. (That may be unconscious and I assume it's not malicious, but the comments definitely tend to think about men's behavior around women.) Only women's consent is explicitly addressed, and then SimpleMan addresses it as an impediment to men's desire. (Note SimpleMan's disdain for #metoo, where he suggests and then fails to support the idea that men have lost their careers for hugs.)

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by rowan » Thu Mar 1, 12:46 2018

last night's consent
hey babe *waggles eyebrows*
other half *grins*
go into room but get into a discussion of the cat barfing all over
ugh well that just killed it eh
both go to sleep

THIS IS NOT HARD PEOPLE JUST FUCKING TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU LIKE AND DONT LIKE

there are things we don't do because I don't like 'em, things we don't do because he doesn't like 'em. IT IS NOT HARD TO COMMUNICATE.

IF you are in a dating situation and there is a power imbalance then GO FIND SOMEONE ELSE
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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Skeezy » Thu Mar 1, 13:07 2018

@sonic

I just brought up an example of how consent can be confusing especially during out of the norm situations. Its still about the slippery slope and combination of women not saying no, etc everything.

Men can give consent but even here its mostly referred to women. You can say its not but if you look at whats been sited in topics its all the female point of view. Conesnt on the surface sounds easy because women are not the ones who usially have to chase consent. Now if you give it then its given. If you change your mind you also have to be clear because there is a lot of gray without direct communication.

In an average sexual encounter, what should the man ask for consent for, after he's gotten the signals or a yes to initialize?

Edit: also I withink what a simple man is trying to get at is sure there are men who deserve to be slandard for things they've done and then there are men who get railroaded for simple things just because they displeased a woman.
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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by rowan » Thu Mar 1, 13:14 2018

Different types of sexual acts. Do you like this? Can I touch here? Want me to ____?

Consent can be sexy af, if you use the sexy voice and respect when the other person says or indicates no, not that, not right now, etc

It really isn't that hard. We've had tons of threads on this before too, where people talk about how to make it sexy.

Consent is for both people involved. We talk about women more because frankly women's consent gets steamrolled far more often. But in my relationship both of us can and have said no.
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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Skeezy » Thu Mar 1, 14:01 2018

@rowan

I get it. It sounds easy. Its definitely far easier in an established relationship. I can see some more aggressive women being turned off by it though. Which is what makes things difficult for men. Some women like aggressive men and some are turned off by it. So that standard is still going to be confusing without direct communication from the woman herself what one or even a lot of woman think is sexy, doesn't necessarily go for even majority of women.

I think a lot of women would appreciate it but your still going to have to see what your dealing with first. Its far easier for the woman to just say how she wants things to go but some do and some dont.

I think its going to be very hard to get men to verbally ask for things without the woman being verbal about how she is. So as much as you have to show men the way to communicate you have to show women the way as well. If not, then there wont be much progress amongst overall.

As with the nuances and gestures, women have just as much trouble communicating consent as men have asking for it.

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by SimpleMan » Fri Mar 2, 5:49 2018

@Sonic

-"because "no" can be communicated in multiple ways, there is no way for women to say "yes"? naaaaah"

The claim that was made to me was that women are incapable of saying no, there are many giving reasons for this, including fear and "woman are told..." I add to this claim that if this is the case, then women are incapable of saying "yes", neither, for the exact same reasons... If you are going to address the point I made, then please do, otherwise I do not appreciate the misrepresentation of the point for, don't be lazy.

-"The version presented by SimpleMan and then elaborated by Skeezy and Storage is almost exclusively heterosexual, normative, and male-centered"

I can see your point here... yes, I agree with this statement... I am talking about the relationship between a man and a woman, I don't think it is even practical for me to use a language that is inclusive of all sexual preferences. I don't know for instance, how gay relationships dynamics function, or what kind of problems they might have... trying to mix it all together as one, and then come with a solution that fix it all sounds very counterproductive to me... I can't think in those terms...

-"Only women's consent is explicitly addressed, and then SimpleMan addresses it as an impediment to men's desire"

I don't see it this way... I actually see it all the opposite way as this... I think society as a whole decides what is the moral good, so pretty much people will tell you... then there is always institutions that claim to are the keepers of moral, and try to drive society to their standards, for instance the church and yes feminism. They lead from the top-down... anyway it is up to people to follow.

THis is all important because society sets up their own rules, this ways... so for instance in some cultures it is expected that a man steals the woman, so when the woman is goign to get married they stage a fake kidnaping where the father let the woman outside, and the guy comes in a horse and she jumps in and they take off and the the father with the brothers of the woman go out and scream "ruffian!" then latter that day they all make a party and get drunk...

I can see at least 10 things that feminism will find problematic with this practice... However, it does work for them, they are all happy with it, and they feel like they are keeping their culture and tradition alive. It does work for them. Here in the west we used to have practices that good or bad, questionable or not...worked... and practical use of it is a very important thing, in my opinion.. but then we got a cultural revolution where everything old is labeled as.. traditional, and this means "bad"... and we need progressive instead, because progressive is always "good"... and this is the new moral... but on the meanwhile, the question that hurts the most is... when are they going to come with something that works?

I don't see how affirmative consent is going to work... but who knows it maybe does...

However it is a step towards inequality... feminists have being making a lot of this steps lately... another example of this... a couple of decades there was drunk sex, this is, people go to the club, get wasted drunk and next day wake up next to someone... Society will brush it off and just say something on the lines of "if you don't want that to happen to you, then don't get wasted drunk"... today this is unacceptable and the new standard says that this is indeed rape, and it is the man the rapist, always... and it works this way, if the woman say she was drunk, then she can't clearly consent, sex without consent equals rape... but what if the man claims that he was drunk too? well... it turns out that being drunk is not an excuse that makes OK what he did...

Maybe they think we are stupid? and honestly we are... but not this much... anyone can catch up really fast with how inequality works in this drunk sex cases... woman is always the victim, she never have agency she never made bad decisions and she is never responsible for those decision... men... well... all men are rapists and they are are the ones that have to take all responsibility for everything... that is feminism for a lot of people...

Anyway... mess up with social norms, then come with some standard that does not work, and then go around saying that all this problems in society are because patriarchy or some stuff like that... maybe by then there still be people around that cares.... who knows?

You keep saying that all men out there have to pleasure women like if they where sex machines with 30 years of experience... because that is the standard now... and then you will have all this inexpert young people that don't really know what they are doing, trying to learn the basics, now having to worry of the legal implications of not having enough experience to end up doing something that make the woman feel "uncomfortable"... just to point out one of many holes in your claims about quality of sex and stuff... Have you seeing a picture of that Anzir comedian guy? just by looking at his picture, how much experience with sex you think he have? I would say his first sexual experience was after becoming famous... what you say?

-"Note SimpleMan's disdain..."

No mate... Sorry but not... Notice the disdain in the other side of the bench... instead of addressing any point I made, I got a very obscure comment about WordPress... like... can it gets more patronizing than that? How pointing out the use a CMS is even a valid argument at all? I feel it to be so lame and lazy that no... sorry but not.. I am not engaging in that... you go ahead and engage in that debate of how the use of some CMS is less worthy than other CMS.. and WordPress for that matter, mate... like... 25% of websites out there are using it... when almost all onlines feminist activism is done in twitter and Tumblr... somehow, for some reason out of nowhere, I got an answer that totally ignored the point I made and decided to dismiss my whole argument because WordPress... yes, I am going to disdain that shit... It is very beneath me, I am a lot better than that... sorry but no... I am not going to engage that kind debate... What is next? that This point I am making here is not good because I am not wearing Rayban sunglasses?

@rowan

-"THIS IS NOT HARD PEOPLE JUST FUCKING TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU LIKE AND DONT LIKE"

I agree with that... so why all this argument about women not being able to do just this??? Why all this argument that it is the responsibility of the man to be constantly looking for nonverbal clues to figure out what the woman want?

This you say here is the point I have being trying to get across... people need to speak up and say what they want.. and if a woman fail to do this, then it is not a problem with men and their toxic masculinity... it is a problem with that woman... I still don't see what is so controversial and oppressive about this...

-"IF you are in a dating situation and there is a power imbalance then GO FIND SOMEONE ELSE"

There is always going to be a power imbalance, one way or another... just saying...

-"if you use the sexy voice..."

I have being trying to imagine how this sexy voice sounds like... so far... I think I have nailed the "creepy" voice... can you like... give some examples of this "sexy voice" that can't be take as creepy at all?

You think If I start to talk like Shaggy in the Bombastic song... it would be sexy or creepy? Cause I definitely don't want to come through as Justin Bieber in boyfriend...

OK I better stop that... the point is... there is not such thing as "sexy voice"... you are an idealist, you wish this was a world of angels, when in reality we are nothing more than glorified monkeys... "sexy voice"... LOL

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Sonic#
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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Sonic# » Fri Mar 2, 7:14 2018

The claim that was made to me was that women are incapable of saying no,
I can't take that seriously. That wasn't a claim.

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Re: MGTOW: Enthusiastic Consent

Post by Skeezy » Fri Mar 2, 7:25 2018

@sonic
To be fair to A simple man and myself

Its been implied several times that women may fear rejecting male advances due to threat of violence or other and its used heavily in the debates. Along with more than one person actually saying women may be incapable of saying no. Thats kind of whats adding fuel to our rebutle since so many verbal demands are being put on the male counterpart as far as consent.

My point has been instead of men trying to find a way to ask for consent sexy (really?) . how bout women set a standard of being up front for once, instead of putting higher expectations on the man to fumble his way through figuring women out, as no woman is excatly the same. Sure asking sounds easy but when your expected to ask consent for little tidbit a lot of women who like aggressive men are going to find that unnactractive/lame/no balls. Could be disputed but to that I say look at the posts of womens judgement of men here. They are varied some arent bad, some are judgemental and some are just bashing. They are all different

So instead of men blindly being forced to put themselves out there like always, how about somewhere in the conversation about sex, the woman just be upfront about what she consents to as a standard and the man ask for consent on the rest.? Thats all I'm saying and its being rebutled by no, the man should just ask for everything.

Edit: or everone could go the 50 shades of gray route and we just set consentual dating application forms as a standard. I like that more than asking for every little thing
Last edited by Skeezy on Fri Mar 2, 9:49 2018, edited 2 times in total.

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