MMA Transgenders and feminism

Moderators: Enigma, Sonic#

Locked
Skeezy
member
member
Posts: 305
Joined: Fri Jun 9, 12:05 2017

MMA Transgenders and feminism

Post by Skeezy » Tue Oct 16, 14:28 2018

As most people know the transgender community has gained ground in acceptance. Some feminists now largely disagree that transgenders should be allowed to do everything a woman does. Bathroom usage certain jobs etc.

Upon my arrival here I combated the premise that women and men can be considered truly equal. Everyone has potential to uniquely excel past prefixed limitations but, I always say you have to be realistic. Society isnt always realistic and that brings about this topic.

A transgender woman was allowed to compete in MMA the womens division. Not going to post the links because its recent and easily found if you havent already seen it.
Im not sure of all the specifics of the fight, I saw part of the fight and it looked like they tried to balance things by having the transgender woman fight against a heavier weight, as the size difference is noticible. However the transgender women beat the other woman in about 2 and half minutes and fractured her skull.

After the fight when intervied the woman said," I have never felt so overpowered in all my Life." This coincideds with Rhonda Rousey as she has also said shes was greatly overpowered by a man in a fight and could not escape his grip as she usually does with most women.

Of course now after the fight most people are saying well thats just common sense. My stance is, apparently it wasnt to everybody for the fight (amongst other issues and topics) to even happen.

So I'm curious as to how everyone here feels about whats going to happen in the future as far as women, men and the trangender community. What are or should be the limitations of those who identifiy as women but were born men? Should there be no limitations or stipulations? In sorting, are we being biased or realistic? Have the emotions behind the movements caused the movements to lose rationality? Should we be blind to diffference even when its glaring? Tons of questions

Pikachu
member
member
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 9:22 2016

Re: MMA Transgenders and feminism

Post by Pikachu » Fri Nov 23, 6:00 2018

There's nothing to be gained for a transgender woman competing in womens MMA. If they win, they become persona non grata because they beat up a woman with what the media will call "Man strength", if they lose, they get mocked for being beaten by a woman despite what the media will call, "Man strength".

They have to tread the finest of lines, of winning, but not too much, only by a slight margin. For every fight. Which in a fight, isn't possible to control that much. So screw it, transgender people shouldn't compete in MMA, it's a barbaric sport that should be banned anyway.

And I thought Rousey said she could beat Floyd Mayweather? Lol.

Skeezy
member
member
Posts: 305
Joined: Fri Jun 9, 12:05 2017

Re: MMA Transgenders and feminism

Post by Skeezy » Thu Nov 29, 9:34 2018

Pikachu wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 6:00 2018
There's nothing to be gained for a transgender woman competing in womens MMA. If they win, they become persona non grata because they beat up a woman with what the media will call "Man strength", if they lose, they get mocked for being beaten by a woman despite what the media will call, "Man strength".

They have to tread the finest of lines, of winning, but not too much, only by a slight margin. For every fight. Which in a fight, isn't possible to control that much. So screw it, transgender people shouldn't compete in MMA, it's a barbaric sport that should be banned anyway.

And I thought Rousey said she could beat Floyd Mayweather? Lol.
Yeah, she changed her tune on a lot of stuff after the 1st and 2nd loss. She's a WWE wrestler now.

hals
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2:52 2017
Contact:

Re: MMA Transgenders and feminism

Post by hals » Sun Jan 13, 10:10 2019

In situations such as these it's crucial to take sex into consideration. As everyone is aware, men are able to build more muscle mass than women because of biology therefore when you allow someone born biologically male into a women's sporting competition dependent upon strength that person has a biological advantage.

So my conclusion is that transgender women should not be allowed to compete against women who are biologically female. It creates an unfair advantage for trans women and displaces biological women out of sporting leagues women have fought so hard to have as their own.

User avatar
melsbells
member
member
Posts: 1022
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 6:45 2014
Location: Finland

Re: MMA Transgenders and feminism

Post by melsbells » Mon Jan 14, 6:20 2019

We've had this discussion on the forum before and here is the most recent thread that people bothered to reply: Transwomen and Sports?. It even starts with an MMA example.

Birth sex assignment based on genital appearance (which is what I assume most people mean when they say someone is biologically male or female) doesn't result in a biological advantage. There are a lot of different factors that give one person an advantage over another. Many sports try to mitigate this in ways other than gender separation, such as weight class or skill level based leagues.
Sonic# from the linked thread wrote:The history of sex testing for the Olympics seems to show that verifying for sexes is terrifically flawed because both chromosomal testing and hormonal testing don't really test what we think gender is. They test the presence or absence of individual features that may give false positives. A woman may have a Y chromosome but be perceived as female all of her life due to being insensitive to her own androgyns. A woman may have a higher level of testosterone, but that doesn't make her not a woman. As for hormone (androgyn) testing, that's the current method employed by Olympic committees, but it's terribly flawed: someone can have a lot of androgyns and look like a woman. What they're really testing for is hormonal differences, but that doesn't make much sense since there's no evidence androgyns directly give a performance advantage to elite women in sports.1

I bring all that up because once you say that trans women or trans men shouldn't be in the sports corresponding to their gender, you bring up the issue of verification. Basically, you're telling a sporting committee to determine a rule for gender that excludes trans people but somehow lets all cis people participate in their gender's sports. Whatever rule or rules you end up developing end up being the underlying criteria for participating in a sport rather than gender. Height, muscle mass, bone density, weight, hormones: once someone tries to define gender more precisely than mere social conventions, they create sports that are no longer dividing men and women.

I'd be theoretically okay with rules based purely on a physical parameter, like weight classes in boxing. However, I'm not okay with coming up with those rules exclusively to exclude trans women from women's sports. That seems analogous to gerrymandering, changing the boundaries of gender in order to benefit cis people and exclude trans people.
Merperidine from the linked thread wrote:Stumbled on an aticle today about this.

Lots of relevant points in here, but of particular interest is the fact that a trans woman's hormone replacement therapy regimen--which the Olympic committee requires trans women athletes to have undergone for a year or more before they can compete as women--includes testosterone blockers that are so effective that trans women on HRT often have lower testosterone levels than cis women.
^I updated the link.
Sonic# from the linked thread wrote:Meppi, I really appreciated that article. I know I've run across the factoid that HRT reduces testosterone to levels not usually seen in women.

I also agree with the larger idea that people are getting hung up over different body types, when body types are more a function of ordinary variation than a function of gender or sex.
Article wrote:Once you get past the relationship between muscle and hormones, the bigotry of the anti-trans argument becomes readily apparent. By singling out trans women with larger ribcages for exclusion, are they saying that cis women with large ribcages have the same advantage? If you’re going to ban all trans women because they’re tall and have an advantage, does that mean that Brittney Griner, who is 6’8”, cis, and can dunk, should be banned from basketball? That feels utterly wrong—in the exact same way as excluding trans women on the same basis would be.
That's one of the points where body-based arguments break down: they adopt rules that would cut against many of the cis athletes currently competing. Yet that's seen as an error, because the fundamental issue for people complaining about trans participation in sports isn't bodily advantage, but the idea that there's a "male body" that always beats a "female body" irrespective of variation, conditions, or hormonal treatment.
And specifically to MMA
Aum from the linked thread wrote:isn't weight class the most important factor? If you're trans and weigh the same as other people in your gender/weight class, then what does it matter?
The history of women having their own league came about because women weren't allowed to compete at all, or they weren't paid fairly for competing. History of women in tennis shows this.

@Sonic and Mepi. Sorry if I'm pulling you into this. I felt like the ideas you were conveying were too good to simply paraphrase.

User avatar
Sonic#
member
member
Posts: 5362
Joined: Sat Nov 7, 9:37 2009
Location: Georgia, US

Re: MMA Transgenders and feminism

Post by Sonic# » Mon Jan 14, 8:43 2019

^ No, thanks for tagging that. I didn't originally reply because I felt like I remembered this discussion before, and I didn't want to have to rehash the same replies.

Skeezy
member
member
Posts: 305
Joined: Fri Jun 9, 12:05 2017

Re: MMA Transgenders and feminism

Post by Skeezy » Mon Jan 14, 15:29 2019

I see the articles and there is mention of testosterone levels etc. There is not much about adrenaline, it mostly talks about muscle structure and size.

Everything you need to win a fight comes from inside. The more you fight the better it makes you for
future fights. It also helps hone your style and decisiins while adrenaline kicks into your system.

The cis mma women are basically saying they've never fought an opponent this strong before. These women have fought the best of the best and trained with the best . One transgender woman fighter is overpowering them flat out in direct physicality. Its saying the trangender fighter is stronger than all of the other women in the mma and the cis women are not strong enough when directly put against these fighters but can usually break another cis womans same hold.

Ive been in fights mostly against larger males as my weight ranges from about 140-150 slim build. Ive won fights against two 220+lbs males usually with a unbreakable headlock. Honestly the cis mma women probably couldnt break my lock either as its never been broken in a fight and I leave no wiggle room, until you pass out.


In order to say cis mma women and trangender mma women are on the same footing, you have to ignore a lot of facts to try to make things how you want them to be. You can scientifically try to make them equal on paper but, the facts will always remain, even on paper. Gender is a factual thing. New society gives it wiggle room but actual facts will remain the same.

I can accept that transgender women and are accepted as women but... The Fact is, they werent always that way, surgery and pills wont change that when it comes to things like this. Especially if the now transgender woman started as a non weak male (I'll explain weak later)

Alongside that you have God, or evolution (take your pick) granting the males dominance in confrontation. Men have been warring/fighting since the beginning. This is what determines the world as we know it and allows certain countries and you to live comfortably but, the fight is always in the backround. I dont think fighting/war is as prominent in the female gender. In the male gender it is the baseline that drives society. It is also what socoety would devolve to given hard times, for examples look at aftermath after devastating storms. Mens dominance almost becomes law after such matters, both as threat and protection. Unwary soft people are thrust into the reality of I have no one to protect me, so I have to fend for myself. If you are out manned then you lose. This is in the backround of almost all societies, at all times and will become the norm even if a small thing such as no electricity for a month comes into play. No police? Men rule its that simple. If you arent doing dirt you better be prepaired to fight or kill those that would take from you or your life for that matter.

Also Ive mentioned before the readiness to fight should be in all men. Its an unspoken rule amongst men; those who arent included are considered weak men/cowards. If man is challenged you will know by the look in his eyes what kind of man he is. If his eyes stay in shock and soft then he is soft and unready usually to much of a coward to even fight. Fighting him feels like bullying and it pretty much is, as there is no real spine in this individual. The concept of a man is lost to them. A man is a sum of many parts and is something to take pride in just like being a woman is something to take pride in. A man needs to be ready for rival males that is an unescapable fact of life, that many have died from.

If your a man who doesnt know this then you have either lived very sheltered or you fall into that category. A man is tested many times in life, fight or flight. Are you scared of confrontation? You should be, because it can happen at any given moment unexpectedly and how you handle the situation determines what kind of man you are especially to yourself.

If a non weak male becomes a transgender woman and fights women, she is literally going to beat them senseless.

Rhonda rousey and probably several other female mma fighters train with men but to fight a man seriously one on one, especially on the ground, is a whole different matter. A trangender mma woman may have less hormones due to processes but, at the core, when the adrenilin kicks in so will male strength.

All in all mma has 4 options. Make mma unisex (i doubt this will happen but it might), give transgenders their own classes, have trangenders fight men or continue to have them beat up the women, badly.

Life has its own rules and those dont change. Just because you think something should be, doesn't mean that it actually is what you think it is. In this fact as much as you want to be "fair" to the trangender community certain facts are inescapable since your dealing with surgery.

For an example of inescapable see breast implants. With as much as women wish they were theirs, they werent born with them and they are not yours beyond a sense that you paid for them. You will have to go back get them replaced every so often and your body may even reject them. Everytime you go to a doctor you have to let them know the work you've had done. In reality they are fake.

Certain realities are inescapable. If you follow what Im saying, that men are born, historically have shown, have been cutured by society for millenias, have a natural predosposition, and are factually entrapped by life itself to fight. Its not body size, muscle mass, and minor factors, its life itself that picked men for confrontations. This is shown even in nature amongst some animals. In nature you know which animals hold dominance. In deer its the males with their horns, in some species females are bigger or more aggressive. In human beings it is what it is, and you can find article after article disputing whats factually obvious. Sure there are exceptional cases but exceptional isnt the norm. You alreary know the norm because thats how it is. Dispute it and it will still be that way. Perhaps after a string of women get their eyesockets broken, foreheads caved or suffer serious permanent injury maybe they'll notice when the transgenders adrenaline kicks in that its not necessarily a fair fight.

Edit: 1/21/19
Picture the most savage mma womens fight you've ever seen blow for blow back and forth at least one fighter is completely bloody. One fighter gets the upper hand and savagely beats the bloody fighter whos struggling to stay in the fight. The fighter with the uper hand starts reigning down blows 10 shots to the head before the ref decides to stop it . Now picture the fighter with the upper hand is male. How much damage do you think 10 strikes while prone would do to her given that the male is holding back 0 of his strength? Severe damage even death is a high probability.

Now picture a woman fighter beating a male fighter. Same scenario. How much damage do you think he would sustain. Would you even be worried about his skull being smashed in? Its also possible but far less likely on average.

Why would you even risk the previous scenario legitmately? By ignoring things like DNA, adrenaline, the past, muscle memory and surgery. It may not fit every scenario of people chosen but, you could in theory, wind up with a scenario where someone gets killed, even more so than usual. Luckily refs are pretty quick to stop fights these days..

Locked