harvey weinstein

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spacefem
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harvey weinstein

Post by spacefem » Sat Nov 11, 6:34 2017

How much are you guys paying attention to the celebrity rape/harassment charges and sheer number of women coming out with stories about how many, many men we used to like are actually harassing jerks?

I realize I should post more on this question, just struggling a lot right now.
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Re: harvey weinstein

Post by octarineoboe » Sat Nov 11, 10:34 2017

I'm paying attention to the number of stories but not all of the individual details, if that makes sense. And I'm paying attention to - and cheering on - the consequences. Weinstein's been fired, Kevin Spacey was replaced in that movie, Louis CK's movie was cancelled. I really do think that indicates something different, that our response to these stories is starting to change.

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Re: harvey weinstein

Post by rowan » Sat Nov 11, 20:01 2017

I'm mostly noting names but not reading details because frankly I just can't anymore.

It does seem like things are changing though, and that's good. I mean how long have we been talking about this problem... idk I liked the one about driving 'em all into the sea.
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Re: harvey weinstein

Post by Nachos » Sun Nov 12, 7:03 2017

I feel that this is something that has been happening for so long without any consequences for the perpetrators, that now it is good that there are consequences happening. I feel it's sad that it's just taken so long.
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Re: harvey weinstein

Post by Taurwen » Sun Nov 12, 8:01 2017

I feel really strange every time I new name gets dropped. I only have two reactions "Yeah, I heard about him" or "Oh, that's surprising". I can't even work up any outrage. I'm glad things are actually happening. Now we just need to keep at it and not let things like Louis' "apology" smooth things over. Hint: If they really cared about the bad shit they've done, they wouldn't have brushed off the accusations as rumours two fucking months ago.

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Re: harvey weinstein

Post by Bork » Sun Nov 12, 12:02 2017

What's getting me is the surprise about how widespread this is. I've seen so many articles about how "It's not just Hollywood with a harassment problem, it's X industry as well!" Like... yeah. It's everywhere. It's fucking everywhere all the time in every industry out there. I worry that, as the apologies get more and more refined, people will start accepting them and things will go back to the way they've always been.
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Re: harvey weinstein

Post by Sonic# » Sun Nov 12, 19:12 2017

octarineoboe wrote:I'm paying attention to the number of stories but not all of the individual details, if that makes sense. And I'm paying attention to - and cheering on - the consequences.
This. I'm surprised that there are actually consequences against the men who misused their positions. Similar claims - or rumors, or what have you - have come up in the past against several of these people, and they didn't stick. Now it feels like these women's claims are being heard, at least to some degree.

I discussed the Louis C.K. case with some of my friends on Friday. Some of it was frustrating - one person wanted to represent at least one of the claims as pretty mundane. It was tough but maybe worthwhile for us to talk through situations where people are not employees but there still might be a misuse of status. That's pretty euphemistic, but it was good to work through situations similar to those that have happened between people in the same field or at the same conference where the come-on itself is inappropriate.

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Re: harvey weinstein

Post by Nech » Mon Nov 13, 9:21 2017

Bork wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 12:02 2017
I worry that, as the apologies get more and more refined, people will start accepting them and things will go back to the way they've always been.
This is my biggest fear. Just like the nuanced arguments for attacking vulnerable minorities have become "acceptable" and commonplace, I worry that these apologies will be taken. I feel the C.K one is already on that track, and retroactively why I found it uncomfortable to read. Also the sheer numbers, it almost feels like Hollywood is trying to overwhelm the masses so they stop caring and they can go back to business as usual. I wonder how many consequences will just be shrugged off and nothing will come of it as more and more stories come out to cover up if the consequences actually come to fruition. I think generally, this is making me more pessimistic. :(
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Re: harvey weinstein

Post by Aum » Mon Nov 13, 12:38 2017

My biggest fear is that it's a meme waiting to be taken over by the establishment. We can rationalize wars and a misogynist POTUS. I'm afraid it's going to become just another news byte.

I didn't participate in #metoo because it's highly triggering. The stories themselves are triggering. The sheer number of them is triggering. And people exposing themselves on a widescale with their stories is triggering because I know, deep down, the people with the real power to make sweeping changes are also the people who perpetuate rape culture and body commodification. I am scared for all these people vulnerably exposing themselves and risking escalation or alienation. That's why I've remained silent.

There's this numb part of me that says, "Rape is just part of humanity, it's never going away", and I shove down any hope of things changing.

The only part of all this that makes me hopeful is that more people are waking up to the daily violence, and maybe we can have some sort of collective monitoring / justice. More people means more power to influence the establishment.

Sorry if this sounds cynical I am just really struggling with this.
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Re: harvey weinstein

Post by DarkOne » Mon Nov 13, 14:04 2017

I'm on the cynical camp. Yes, it's all the buzz right now. News stories and articles and interviews and some consequences short- or long- term (remains to be seen)... But a part of me thinks "oh NOW its a problem, because it's Hollywood. Before, it was lame; but now, it's juicy.

No one gives a crap when Rose in Wichita is excluded from group lunches because the asswipes in her group keep deciding to have "group lunch" at Twin Peaks and she refuses to go to there, and then they dare call her a stuck up bitch in front of Andrea, who sold her soul to the devil and did agree to go to Twin Peaks in exchange for some social time with the boss. And no one reports on how Betsy in Kansas City told a co-worker if he didn't quit it with the off color jokes she'd take him to HR and suddenly she gets fired for "threatening a co-worker", but really (and what a coincidence) her bosses weren't satisfied with her performance anyway. It sucks to be you, Betsy, because, sorry, you work at an "at-will" state.

But Louis CK drops his pants and everyone loses their shit. Most people don't have their superiors drop their pants in front of them. Many people experience some other sort of more subtle detrimental harassment or discrimination. This whole Hollywood thing feels very voyeuristic to me, like people slowing down on the highway to watch a car crash, or watching the Olympic highlights just to watch the gymnast fall off the beam or the figure skater miss that triple Axel. It feels not real, not relevant. I predict it will have very little effect on corporate culture or the environment at the worker-ant level. I hope I'm wrong, and there is bite to this bark.

2017-11-14 edit: You know what? Maybe I was wrong about no trickle down effects. Maybe the dominoes are falling. It's coming out that G. H. W. Bush was a butt-groper: http://time.com/5019182/george-hw-bush- ... llegation/ Maybe all these stories will be a lesson to the masses. Maybe people will think twice about being wildly -- or even slightly --inappropriate, because it won't be hushed up anymore. If you do it, you'll be outed and risk at best embarrassment, at worst your career, reputation and livelihood.
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Re: harvey weinstein

Post by Sonic# » Tue Nov 14, 13:05 2017

^ Aum and DarkOne make me think of whether this will trickle down. Harassment goes unpunished in many contexts and most of the time, and it may take time to see the "trickle down" into organizations and regular policies. How does the gossip-y reporting get there? Well, people in each of these organizations have to see the problems and be empowered to do something about it. The leadership has to change and the culture has to change with that.

Just to pick out one thread of discourse where things could go either way post-Weinstein:

The effectiveness of sexual harassment training:

There are more calls to introduce sexual harassment training, which on its face sounds good.
Senate Backs Anti-Harassment Training for Lawmakers, Staff wrote:The Senate on Thursday unanimously approved a measure requiring all senators, staff and interns to be trained on preventing sexual harassment.
A good start. I'm cautious though. They also need to make sure that the training or other policy solutions are effective, especially since we know that much of the training and certification isn't reported and that sexual harassment remains underreported, according to the EEOC:
Equal Employment Opportunity Commission Report, v wrote:Much of the training done over the last 30 years has not worked as a
prevention tool – it’s been too focused on simply avoiding legal liability. We believe effective training can reduce workplace harassment, and recognize that ineffective training can be unhelpful or even counterproductive. However, even effective training cannot occur in a vacuum – it must be part of a holistic culture of non-harassment that starts at the top. Similarly, one size does not fit all: Training is most effective when tailored to the specific workforce and workplace, and to different cohorts of employees. Finally, when trained correctly, middle-managers and first-line supervisors in particular can be an employer’s most valuable resource in preventing and stopping harassment.
This report is from June 2016. My hope is that now leaders and organizers will pay fresh attention to this kind of work and make good-faith attempts to improve their spaces.

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Re: harvey weinstein

Post by Aum » Tue Nov 14, 15:37 2017

Sensitivity training is just lip service. It's part of collective denial that pretends like people need to be made aware of something that they weren't aware of before. Providing this kind of training in the midst of a culture that supports rape is the most two-faced thing ever. What we need is more accountability and more punishment. Men will stop doing it when they know they can't get away with it. They don't need sensitivity training to tell them what they're doing is wrong, they already know that.

How about we remove perpetrators from power who admit to doing it, rather than giving them higher approval ratings out of spite? How about actual jail time instead of slaps on the wrist or nothing at all? Until the stakes are bigger it will never end.

The initiatives need to happen quickly. There are already people rolling their eyes at the sheer number of "outings" like they're already tired of hearing about it. "Can we just move on already" -ism is starting. It's to the point where people are assuming that because there's so many call outs that they must be lying and just taking advantage of bandwagoning for selfish or political purposes. It doesn't occur to some people that we have an epidemic of sexual assault truly happening -- no, it can't possibly be that.

I am just really angry. I see the sweeping under the rug in progress. It's practically happening in slow motion, in broad daylight.
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Re: harvey weinstein

Post by Enigma » Tue Nov 14, 15:40 2017

I'm of two minds about this whole thing. On one hand the fact that people are being instantly believed and there are consequences is enormously powerful and very new. Even when things broke in Hollywood before there was doubt and sweeping it under the carpet. There is currently a pretty good environment for anyone looking to tell on their powerful harasser. And there's a great house cleaning happening.

On the more cynical hand im afraid that this has power because it's a scandal ™ and Hollywood knows being tied to a scandal is bad. The real test will be the staying power.
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Re: harvey weinstein

Post by rowan » Tue Nov 14, 16:56 2017

I kind of feel like there have been consequences for high profile people in my field though, in the last few years, finally. So this isn't the first set of consequences so maybe for that reason it feels a little more real? Though I worry about everything people brought up here as well.
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Re: harvey weinstein

Post by geldofc » Wed Nov 15, 0:43 2017

so many men with almost no power act like a wannabe weinstein from my experience. it's not surprising a massively powerful guy like him acts like an abusive, repulsive pig. it's hilarious the fake good guys matt damon etc. are coming out now to support women when they've been shitting on them in public and private for all of their shitty careers.

fuck louis ck, weinstein, kevin spacey, and fuck all of the abusive, shit circles esp in comedy that uphold oppression while falsely parading as being socially aware.
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