Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

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Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by Sonic# » Tue Dec 19, 14:27 2017

We saw this on Friday in theaters. We both really liked it. I was initially surprised by the more conflicted reaction among fans (some really like it, others seem to hate it). So I wanted to see what Spacefemmers thought.

Just to give a few of my own thoughts (obviously full of spoilers, though at least in this post I'll tag the major ones:

I like the emphasis on coming to terms with failure, as seen most obviously with Luke but also
with Poe's failure to save the fleet, Finn and Rose's failure breaking into the core ship, and Rey's failure to bring Kylo to the light side.
Failure-as-learning, not giving up through failure - I keep thinking about that.

I'm glad
Luke died on his own terms as a teacher and master
. It felt like he spent most of the film dwelling on his previous failures, so to come back and
gain some resolution with Leia, tell Kylo how wrong he is, and help the Resistance escape was awesome. The twin sunset/rise echoing the twin sunset in ANH was also cool.
I thought Vice Admiral Holdo was a badass character.
She kept OpSec by keeping silent about her and Leia's plan, a plan that only didn't succeed because Poe tried to insubordinate around it in a wild goose chase that ended with Benicio del Toro betraying the cloaked ships. Holdo's response was to go down with her ship and delay the First Order fleet in a suicide attack. No, this wasn't a sacrifice that made me cry; it was a bold choice I respected.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by rowan » Tue Dec 19, 22:56 2017

The only thing I wasn't really keen on was
I didn't really understand why Vice Admiral Holdo stayed on the ship in the first place. Someone needed to pilot it? but why? but even if so why did she need to stay?
but anyway the end result of it I thought was pretty excellently done.

But I really super loved the character arcs in this and now I think that
Poe might actually turn into a good leader. I loved how it was clear he wasn't leader material but he's growing. And you could see Leia thinking the same thing. Poe's not my favorite character... but if he learns maybe I can like him.
Also this but it is full of MEGA SPOILERS

AND ALSO ABOUT LEIA
omg omg omg all the things
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by Bork » Wed Dec 20, 21:33 2017

Leia :( Oh Carrie. I teared up when her name first came on screen in the opening credits, and then again when she first came on screen, and then again as it got closer to the end of the movie, and then again at the end when they had the tribute to her. I am so super curious to see what's going to happen with her in the next movie.

Overall, I really liked it. Poe was maddening, although I like the way he was handled. I think a bit more communication aboard the ship would have solved a lot of problems, but it would have been a lot less dramatic. And would have taken away other opportunities, so I guess there's that.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by Enigma » Sat Dec 30, 10:30 2017

I loved it.
I thought they subverted our expectations constantly (I completely agree sonic about the failure theme) I love all of the characters, there was a lot going on but it was all interesting. Except Kylo Ren I guess who is a whiner that I really hope doesn't end up with Rey. But who is an appropriate villian as an alienated white boy in a world of altright and school shootings
.

I found it fascinating that the varied opinions I was seeing going in were reflected in my friends. I loved it, most of my friends thought it was ok and my husband nearly fell asleep lol.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by Sonic# » Sat Dec 30, 23:35 2017

Bork wrote:I think a bit more communication aboard the ship would have solved a lot of problems, but it would have been a lot less dramatic.
lol, that's true in most stories.

Spoiler:
I know a few of my friends came down on Holdo for how she wasn't communicating her plans, but Poe was just as guilty of not communicating his own plan, and he didn't have the rank necessary to justify not communicating it.

Regarding Kylo Ren, he needs a hug. Or more seriously, he needs to realize that the power structure he's embracing is more likely to stab him in the back than Luke is, and he can't control his problems away.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by rowan » Wed Jan 3, 10:16 2018

Sonic# wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 23:35 2017
Bork wrote:I think a bit more communication aboard the ship would have solved a lot of problems, but it would have been a lot less dramatic.
lol, that's true in most stories.
lol that's true in life too
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by MFS » Wed Jan 3, 14:18 2018

I just want to see footage of Laura Dern saying "pew pew pew".
It's a big world, and it never stays the same.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by Storage and Disposal » Thu Jan 4, 2:03 2018

I liked it. A chunk of the humor fell flat for me and the casino subplot dragged, but I don't have any big complaints.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by DarkOne » Thu Jan 4, 5:13 2018

Storage and Disposal wrote:
Thu Jan 4, 2:03 2018
I liked it. A chunk of the humor fell flat for me and the casino subplot dragged, but I don't have any big complaints.
The casino subplot did serve a purpose, at least to me: Bathroom run. I should know better by now than to get that big drink before the movie.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by Storage and Disposal » Thu Jan 4, 8:15 2018

^Holy crap! Me, too! But mine may have been alcohol related.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by Rainbow Dolphins » Thu Jan 4, 16:49 2018

Not that we would ever sneak flasks into the movie theater that would be wrong! :lookup:
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:chainsaw:!

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by MFS » Thu Jan 4, 20:29 2018

Rainbow Dolphins wrote:
Thu Jan 4, 16:49 2018
Not that we would ever sneak flasks into the movie theater that would be wrong! :lookup:
I take this as further proof that you have smuggled goats.
It's a big world, and it never stays the same.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by Pikachu » Thu Jan 11, 7:58 2018

I found the killing of Luke pointless and nonsensical. Leia can survive an explosion, the vaccuum and cold of space and guide her way back, but Luke dies from a force projection... From a writing perspective, you would think the entire point of using a projection and not going there himself was to have the character believably face all those walkers and stall Kylo without dying.

It's like you see a character pull a masterful bit of trickery to defy death...but then they drop dead right after.
A total waste.

Rey was also incredibly dumb in thinking that father murdering psycho Kylo Ren could ever be redeemed.
And Luke saw the goodness in DARTH VADER and wanted to save him, but would go to his own nephew's tent to murder him in cold blood? No. Luke would never do that. Not ever for a second.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by rowan » Thu Jan 11, 13:10 2018

I thought it was actually more of a he was finally at peace, and could pass, instead of being angry/depressed/feeling like a failure. It had echos back to the original series' origins, which we don't really see much of anywhere, but I thought it was a nice touch. I don't think it was actually the projection itself that caused his death. [this is totally just my take on it]

I agree about Luke not murdering Ben in cold blood but remember we got that cold blood bit from Kylo. Luke on the other hand did not remember it that same way. I do agree it wasn't thought through enough to be believable.

Totally agree that Rey is way too naive about Kylo's possible redemption.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by Pikachu » Thu Jan 11, 13:50 2018

rowan wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 13:10 2018
I thought it was actually more of a he was finally at peace, and could pass, instead of being angry/depressed/feeling like a failure. It had echos back to the original series' origins, which we don't really see much of anywhere, but I thought it was a nice touch. I don't think it was actually the projection itself that caused his death. [this is totally just my take on it]

I agree about Luke not murdering Ben in cold blood but remember we got that cold blood bit from Kylo. Luke on the other hand did not remember it that same way. I do agree it wasn't thought through enough to be believable.

Totally agree that Rey is way too naive about Kylo's possible redemption.
Luke remembered it as he was going to murder him but very quickly changed his mind.
I don't understand why being at peace means he has to die instead of helping out the rebellion, aka his own sister? I don't understand why he would leave plans in R2d2 to find him in the force awakens, and in the last jedi say he doesn't want to be found and just wants to die.

Rey says how can they build the rebellion from this. I think the real question is how can anybody write a part 3 from this.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by Sonic# » Thu Jan 11, 14:22 2018

^ I'll just say that I find it interesting how radically people's interpretations of Luke, his fear of Kylo, and his death can differ. Without just saying "I'm right, you're wrong," I think it amounts to competing headcanons, or these large-scale decisions about character and consistency that we make. (Example: I didn't interpret the force projection as a way to avoid death. It was a way to give one last lesson to Kylo, to try to be a hero to Leia and the Resistance one more time, when Luke really had no other way to get there. It was the hero-turned-trickster&wiseman. I can argue for that very deftly, but there's a point where other people will disagree because they don't share my narrative assumptions.)

Within this model, the larger question is: do these new revelations about Luke function as an extension of what he's done (where I can make it work) or as a betrayal of how I understood his character (where the parts are incongruous)? For me they fit and the model works; for you they don't. To put on my literary critic hat for a moment, the film puts viewers in the position of being (in a very broad sense) either Kylo or Rey, of rejecting the model presented to them and trying to control the canon, or of acknowledging what was done, accepting it, and trying to understand it.

I look forward to part 3.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by Pikachu » Thu Jan 11, 15:09 2018

Sonic# wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 14:22 2018
^ I'll just say that I find it interesting how radically people's interpretations of Luke, his fear of Kylo, and his death can differ. Without just saying "I'm right, you're wrong," I think it amounts to competing headcanons, or these large-scale decisions about character and consistency that we make. (Example: I didn't interpret the force projection as a way to avoid death. It was a way to give one last lesson to Kylo, to try to be a hero to Leia and the Resistance one more time, when Luke really had no other way to get there. It was the hero-turned-trickster&wiseman. I can argue for that very deftly, but there's a point where other people will disagree because they don't share my narrative assumptions.)

Within this model, the larger question is: do these new revelations about Luke function as an extension of what he's done (where I can make it work) or as a betrayal of how I understood his character (where the parts are incongruous)? For me they fit and the model works; for you they don't. To put on my literary critic hat for a moment, the film puts viewers in the position of being (in a very broad sense) either Kylo or Rey, of rejecting the model presented to them and trying to control the canon, or of acknowledging what was done, accepting it, and trying to understand it.

I look forward to part 3.
When Luke turned off his lightsaber against Kylo, the obvious thought was that he was doing the Obi Wan force ghost thing, then they subvert expectations, Kylo is shocked and angry that he didnt get to kill Luke, the audience is relieved and luke looks like a badass, only to then die in the next scene for vague reasons, taking all that relief away. It's manipulative, and leaves a bad impression at the film's close. All this build up of Luke being the point of hope and some turning point and he only does one god damned thing.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by Sonic# » Thu Jan 11, 15:17 2018

^ In other words, Luke wasn't the hero you wanted him to be. You're in the Kylo-position. You don't like being manipulated.

Whereas I didn't feel manipulated. That was surprising, and I went with it.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by Pikachu » Thu Jan 11, 15:23 2018

Sonic# wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 15:17 2018
^ In other words, Luke wasn't the hero you wanted him to be. You're in the Kylo-position. You don't like being manipulated.

Whereas I didn't feel manipulated. That was surprising, and I went with it.
No, Luke wasn't the hero The Force Awakens set him up to be. And he certainly wasn't the person Return of the jedi set him up to be. Again, if Luke just wanted to die, there would be no map to Luke and there would be no meeting with Rey.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by rowan » Sat Jan 13, 22:27 2018

Eh but there's no reason he shouldn't have changed since ROTJ, people change all the time. The map I can kind of see but maybe he got more jaded while he was on the island.

I think it shows that people are complex, and I like that way better than hero worship.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by Aum » Mon Jan 15, 17:01 2018

I didn't enjoy it...
Most of the film's play time was wasted on watching the rebels being chased, and on Luke being a douchebag and refusing to teach Ray. They could've just skipped all that and got right to the point.

The other more subtle thing that really annoyed the hell out of me was that it seemed like Hollywood was finally about to transcend the good vs. evil paradigm when Luke said "the force does not belong to anyone, it's the space between all things". I was like YES finally. Then the movie proceeded to be about good vs. evil again. Such a bummer.

I feel that the franchise is over-extended. I wish that they just ended it. I was hoping for it to end. But instead they did yet another hand off to a whole new franchise.

Kylo was a boring, whiny villain. Nobody will ever compare to Darth Vader. Seems like the 21st century is consistently weak for remakes.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by Unvoiced_Apollo » Sun Jan 21, 15:18 2018

Pikachu wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 15:23 2018
Sonic# wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 15:17 2018
^ In other words, Luke wasn't the hero you wanted him to be. You're in the Kylo-position. You don't like being manipulated.

Whereas I didn't feel manipulated. That was surprising, and I went with it.
No, Luke wasn't the hero The Force Awakens set him up to be. And he certainly wasn't the person Return of the jedi set him up to be. Again, if Luke just wanted to die, there would be no map to Luke and there would be no meeting with Rey.
Have you ever thought of the possibility that maybe Luke had the intention of returning but after the better part of at least a decade he came to the conclusion that it might be better if he didn't? A life of solitude and introspection can really offer new perspectives one never considered.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by Pikachu » Sun Jan 21, 21:33 2018

Unvoiced_Apollo wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 15:18 2018
Pikachu wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 15:23 2018
Sonic# wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 15:17 2018
^ In other words, Luke wasn't the hero you wanted him to be. You're in the Kylo-position. You don't like being manipulated.

Whereas I didn't feel manipulated. That was surprising, and I went with it.
No, Luke wasn't the hero The Force Awakens set him up to be. And he certainly wasn't the person Return of the jedi set him up to be. Again, if Luke just wanted to die, there would be no map to Luke and there would be no meeting with Rey.
Have you ever thought of the possibility that maybe Luke had the intention of returning but after the better part of at least a decade he came to the conclusion that it might be better if he didn't? A life of solitude and introspection can really offer new perspectives one never considered.
Which is nothing short of the absolute rape of his character. Any reason he gave in the Last Jedi either wasn't there or didn't make sense. Which Rey told him repeatedly. Leave his sister to fight and die against the First Order while he hangs around on an island to die like a useless coward. Mark Hamill himself was disgusted by this portrayal. It was so out of character he called him "Jake Skywalker". Is conflicts with The Force Awakens and contradicts his characterization in episode 6. Someone who saw the good in Darth Vader does not go almost murdering his own nephew cos he felt some darkside creeping in.

Rian Johnson is the kind of arrogant writer who will tear down everything in order to force his vision through.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by Storage and Disposal » Mon Jan 22, 0:41 2018

Pikachu wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 15:23 2018
No, Luke wasn't the hero The Force Awakens set him up to be.
Pikachu wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 21:33 2018
Leave his sister to fight and die against the First Order while he hangs around on an island to die like a useless coward...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Luke gave up on Ben because of the darkness within him and ran away to an island like a useless coward in The Force Awakens.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (spoilers)

Post by Sonic# » Mon Jan 22, 11:50 2018

It seems incomplete to mention Mark Hamill's comment about "Jake Skywalker" (as if that was his final opinion) without also mentioning that Hamill came to respect the character's writing, as expressed in further comments days later:
Mark Hamill in [url=http://ew.com/movies/2017/12/27/mark-hamill-star-wars-the-last-jedi-luke-skywalker/]Entertainment Weekly[/url] wrote: “I’ve had trouble accepting what [Johnson] saw for Luke but again, I mean, I have to say, having seen the movie I was wrong,” he said. “I think being pushed out of your comfort zone is a good thing because if I was just another benevolent Jedi training young padawans, we’ve seen it.”
Regarding both Hamill and Rian Johnson's comments, I treat them as any other argument about the film. They are useful as reactions or as descriptions of process, but they have no more authority than any other viewer of the film. My stance here comes from my training as a literary critic. The Last Jedi, like any other narrative object, was perhaps prepared with certain intentions or impressions in mind, but once it is released it stands beyond those original intentions. The text or film itself is the primary source being discussed and it has to be able to stand alone. If a literary object can't be understood independent from its creator, it has failed.

Anyway, all that is to say that I think you (Pikachu) are still caught up in an exercise of rejecting the story because it didn't follow your version of Luke. It didn't make sense to you. That's fine, but it doesn't mean the film itself failed as an object or that the characterization itself is broken. It means Luke/the film doesn't meet your expectations. It means you held expectations of your interpretation of The Force Awakens, and the story didn't go there.

I am fundamentally unable to agree with you because I don't see The Last Jedi's Luke betraying a previous conception I had of Luke. I look at each episode he's written, take it all as a corpus, and understand the earlier and later versions of the hero together as a contiguous character who has definite flaws. There is no loose end. I rewatch The Force Awakens and realize that some of the hints lead to a place I didn't anticipate. I'm surprised but not displeased by that. Maybe I'll change my mind as I continue to think about it, as I rewatch the original trilogy as well, but right now there's some fundamental difference in perception going on between us. I really think it has to do with how we consume stories - what expectations we're willing or unwilling to set aside when we come to a new work of fiction.

One brief illustration:
Again, if Luke just wanted to die, there would be no map to Luke and there would be no meeting with Rey.
I actually agree with this statement. You conclude your premise is right which means the film is flawed. However, I don't think Luke just wanted to die. can't say for certain what he wanted, but I can make some guesses, so I'm not especially troubled that "what Luke wanted" or "why Luke left a map" is never explicitly explained. It's something else for me to mull over.
Which is nothing short of the absolute rape of his character.
Rape is not equivalent to an alleged or actual violation of continuity in a story.

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