How do we beat these misogynists?

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Mordak

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How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by Mordak » Mon Jan 1, 21:24 2018

I'm running out of kero and boots. Some of the trolls here are just horrendous these days :(
Last edited by Mordak on Wed Jan 3, 9:33 2018, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by Rainbow Dolphins » Wed Jan 3, 9:07 2018

My method is to be smarter and faster and way more of a badass than these guys. I have small triumphs but it's still overwhelming. It can be hard not to play into their bullshit, too. Just remember you are way more awesome than then and surround yourself with people who are way more awesome. Strength in numbers, right?
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Re: How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by Mordak » Wed Jan 3, 9:33 2018

We gotta get everyone from the tipsy days back. I miss our crew. Is there a discord now at all? PM me for kadrom's :)
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Re: How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by Eline » Thu Feb 1, 3:27 2018

I suppose you mean trolls on the internet?
At least I notice that misogyny is far more common on the internet, there you only see those people who are bored with their sulky lives.
On the streets there are some too, but it's far more satisfying to have a discussion face to face than through the screens.

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Re: How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by Mordak » Thu Feb 1, 3:32 2018

No, I'm talking about actual mysogynists. Trolls don't bother me, the clearer upperers deal with them ;)
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Re: How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by rowan » Thu Feb 1, 11:21 2018

I'm in favor of throwing them all in the ocean
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Re: How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by Plotthickens » Thu Feb 1, 11:55 2018

Beating the mosogynists is most likely them not being misogynist assholes anymore, right? They learn better?

So what do the converted/educated say? How did their eye-opening happen?
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Re: How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by Patterby » Thu Feb 1, 14:46 2018

I'd like to weigh in. I am new though. Um, violence won't solve anything.
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Re: How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by Sonic# » Thu Feb 1, 16:28 2018

Just as a thought-piece, this article made me think about this thread: "#MeToo must avoid 'carceral feminism." The gist is that solving issues like sexual harassment and assault involves solving issues of economic power, not just enforcing tougher laws. The latter approach without the former mainly results in putting more vulnerable people in jail or prison, whereas someone of Harvey Weinstein's stature will continue to have enough money, resources, and a lack of accountability unless power is more equitably distributed.

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Re: How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by Patterby » Thu Feb 1, 16:36 2018

I think as long as people are free, some will fringe on what is objectively wrong. I understand that there will likely never be a time in my lifetime when everyone accepts me for what i am, but I also feel that it's not a problem. Enough people accept me so that I know there's no secret cabal against me or people like me. It's just unusual and hard to explain. It took me a full year to finally become certain of who I was, and those were harrowing times. I had a few close guides in a place so full of people who hated me for being me. I guess what I'm saying is, it'll never fully disappear but we can always make steps forward.
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Re: How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by Mordak » Thu Feb 1, 22:45 2018

rowan wrote:
Thu Feb 1, 11:21 2018
I'm in favor of throwing them all in the ocean
i-i-i i keep on hoping we'll eat cake by the ocean :P And I've got adam sandlers song about "back to school" from billy madison stuck in my head :moose:
edit: i like hitting the edit button and never actually editting anything.
edit: existential crisis because I actually edited this to announce I had edited nothing but in fact have now put two edits in and its says three :P

if you notice this notice you'll notice that it isn't worth noticing :)
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Re: How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by Aum » Fri Feb 2, 0:20 2018

Humiliation and public shaming tend to shut most people up, if there are sufficient numbers.
The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.

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Re: How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by geldofc » Fri Feb 2, 5:16 2018

idk but i'm sick of them.
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Re: How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by Patterby » Fri Feb 2, 8:43 2018

Aum wrote:
Fri Feb 2, 0:20 2018
Humiliation and public shaming tend to shut most people up, if there are sufficient numbers.
I just can't help but feel it's a double standard. Humilation, public shaming. These are things I don't want done to me. I know itd shut me up. But why use the same aggressive ideas. It's not a bad idea, subjectively, but approaching it with such intent just feels wrong. Maybe that's just me. I can argue til my face turns blue but I'm an idealist, I dont want to use the same things used against me. The world needs to be a kinder place and I try to accomplish that by example. It may not be the most effective practice but it's the only one I can think of that doesn't defeat it's own purpose.
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Re: How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by Mordak » Fri Feb 2, 8:51 2018

Sonic# wrote:
Thu Feb 1, 16:28 2018
Just as a thought-piece, this article made me think about this thread: "#MeToo must avoid 'carceral feminism." The gist is that solving issues like sexual harassment and assault involves solving issues of economic power, not just enforcing tougher laws. The latter approach without the former mainly results in putting more vulnerable people in jail or prison, whereas someone of Harvey Weinstein's stature will continue to have enough money, resources, and a lack of accountability unless power is more equitably distributed.
You're exactly right about the economic power behind abusers. Those bastards have the money to buy silence for a lifetime. Your average woman harassed or assaulted or molested or raped has absolutely no power. They're the ones who have to provide the evidence, legs wide open at the hospital. They're the ones who have to scrape together money they don't have for a lawyer. They're they ones who have the cops telling them it wont stand up in court because there weren't any cameras or people in the vicinity of the assault.

The rapists take away their voices, and the stigma of rape stops police from going after the case, because, guess what? If the case isn't going to make them money, or is going to cost too much time to solve, they'll just tell the woman to get over it. And then that woman doesn't trust the police anymore and a lot of the time the victim is the one who eventually winds up prisoned for some victimless crime.

I know this for a fact, apart from the actual prison thing. I was lucky enough to never fall between the cracks that far after my childhood.

Thankyou for wording this better than I could, Sonic.

---- edited out a couple of things for privacy---sorry
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Re: How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by rowan » Sun Feb 4, 10:11 2018

I mean, the thing is so many people are driven out of various industries and yet the abusers and harassers get chance after chance after chance. So like, when people are like "oh but Harasser deserves another chance" what about all the people whose careers and lives were destroyed. Why don't they get another chance? Instead of hiring the harasser why don't you go find those people and hire them.

JUST SAYING NOT THAT THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH A CERTAIN PROMINENT ASSHAT IN MY FIELD THAT GOT YET ANOTHER CHANCE

it totally does

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Re: How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by Mordak » Sun Feb 4, 10:57 2018

Oh Rowan, I'm sorry that's happened in your industry. One day, hopefully, things will change and we will be safe from people like this. It's bullshit how their voices seem to always be that little bit louder and how they manage to twist things in their head so they come out of it believing /they/ were the victims. It's gonna have to be like, stapled on the front page of the ohsa paperwork: "DON'T BE A FILTHY ASSHOLE"...

or maybe just stapled to the assholes heads.

I'm going with stapled to assholes heads.
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Re: How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by Aum » Mon Feb 5, 21:51 2018

Patterby wrote:
Fri Feb 2, 8:43 2018
Aum wrote:
Fri Feb 2, 0:20 2018
Humiliation and public shaming tend to shut most people up, if there are sufficient numbers.
I just can't help but feel it's a double standard. Humilation, public shaming. These are things I don't want done to me. I know itd shut me up. But why use the same aggressive ideas. It's not a bad idea, subjectively, but approaching it with such intent just feels wrong. Maybe that's just me. I can argue til my face turns blue but I'm an idealist, I dont want to use the same things used against me. The world needs to be a kinder place and I try to accomplish that by example. It may not be the most effective practice but it's the only one I can think of that doesn't defeat it's own purpose.
Well, clearly the intellectual and academic approach doesn't work. Neither does niche activism. The whole system is complicit with misogyny, including the courts. Just like with #metoo, we need to expose the people who are behind the worst of it. There is safety in numbers and safety in exposure.

People who engage in misogyny should be exposed. The police, the courts, the authorities in institutions, they have all failed. They're either in denial, they don't want to rock the boat, or they're actively protecting these scumbags. So it's up to us to expose it. Exposure takes a large number of people all keeping a watchful eye and it takes knowing the names, titles, addresses and stories behind these people.

Nobody likes to be shamed. The difference between a woman being slutshamed or controlled and a man who's a known abuser or rapist is that the man actually deserves it. Behaviour never changes if nobody calls it out.
The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.

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Re: How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by geldofc » Mon Feb 5, 23:19 2018

i want "victims" of misogyny to have as much narcissistic entitlement as misogynists. getting self-esteem from being good and fair often isn't helpful and i think many people are that way. i steer clear of people and places where i think my safety is in danger and try not to care about the other things anymore.
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Re: How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by Patterby » Tue Feb 6, 11:49 2018

Aum wrote:
Mon Feb 5, 21:51 2018
Patterby wrote:
Fri Feb 2, 8:43 2018
Aum wrote:
Fri Feb 2, 0:20 2018
Humiliation and public shaming tend to shut most people up, if there are sufficient numbers.
I just can't help but feel it's a double standard. Humilation, public shaming. These are things I don't want done to me. I know itd shut me up. But why use the same aggressive ideas. It's not a bad idea, subjectively, but approaching it with such intent just feels wrong. Maybe that's just me. I can argue til my face turns blue but I'm an idealist, I dont want to use the same things used against me. The world needs to be a kinder place and I try to accomplish that by example. It may not be the most effective practice but it's the only one I can think of that doesn't defeat it's own purpose.
Well, clearly the intellectual and academic approach doesn't work. Neither does niche activism. The whole system is complicit with misogyny, including the courts. Just like with #metoo, we need to expose the people who are behind the worst of it. There is safety in numbers and safety in exposure.

People who engage in misogyny should be exposed. The police, the courts, the authorities in institutions, they have all failed. They're either in denial, they don't want to rock the boat, or they're actively protecting these scumbags. So it's up to us to expose it. Exposure takes a large number of people all keeping a watchful eye and it takes knowing the names, titles, addresses and stories behind these people.

Nobody likes to be shamed. The difference between a woman being slutshamed or controlled and a man who's a known abuser or rapist is that the man actually deserves it. Behaviour never changes if nobody calls it out.
I'm an idealist so in my mind we just need to not become like what we oppose. I understand action must be made but with wisdom and compassion. I've forgiven people who mistreated me. Verbally. I've had people get physical but I've returned the aggression in the past so we were both in the wrong. In my mind there's a difference in exposing, shaming, and calling someone out.
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Re: How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by Aum » Wed Feb 7, 19:01 2018

Patterby wrote:
Tue Feb 6, 11:49 2018
I'm an idealist so in my mind we just need to not become like what we oppose. I understand action must be made but with wisdom and compassion. I've forgiven people who mistreated me. Verbally. I've had people get physical but I've returned the aggression in the past so we were both in the wrong. In my mind there's a difference in exposing, shaming, and calling someone out.
I consider them all on the same spectrum, just in different degrees. At this point in our conversation it's an academic distinction. When you call someone out politely they might change, or they might not. In the case of rampant, entitled misogynists who believe they're right and they will do anything to shut you down, politeness doesn't tend to work very well. Not all misogynists are overt, many are covert. They are harming women in private spaces or abusing authority, and they are within systems and institutions that let them get away with it. Sometimes you have to get aggressive. Sometimes you need a large number of people and you use those numbers to emotionally manipulate your target. It may seem cruel but if it's for the benefit of society then you're actually doing a good thing.

There have been men who have been unfairly targeted by feminist mobs over the slightest non-sense, with no evidence to backup their claims. It ruined these men's lives and some of them even resorted to suicide. I'm not in favour of that kind of thing...

But if there is evidence or they are a blatantly misogynist who makes no attempt to hide it, then we should absolutely use any resource at our disposal to shut them down, including public humiliation. Find any evidence in their lives to show how messed up they are. Dig up the dirt and fling it. Anything to shut them up and stop them from spreading further trauma and social cancer.

A lot of these people are cowards and they only do it because they have relative anonymity or they don't genuinely believe that anyone is going to come after them. As soon as they realize that's no longer true they often back down; and if they don't, then we should simply escalate until they do. Don't resort to criminal behaviour but do everything within our legal means to make their life a living hell until they realize how their actions are impacting others.

I don't believe that nicey nice always gets the job done. Often times it doesn't. I don't condone violence but I do condone violent communication, in some cases. I watched the Larry Nassar trial and some of his victims let him have it. You could see the rage in their eyes. The judge allowed it because she wanted to shame, humiliate and ruin him: not just his life but his image so that there could be zero hope of anyone ever defending him. It also put other creeps out there on notice that if they do anything this remotely heinous, they too will suffer. I thought it was totally called for.

I have seen groups of women calling out abusers and rapists on Facebook. It's shaky grounds, but I understand. Most of the time it comes to light that the allegations are true, but there will never be any real criminal charges. The women are letting their community know that there is a stalker among them and that everyone should exercise due diligence. Often times, friends of the guy will come forward who are men and say, "You know what, I totally believe this is true. We've tried to talk him down many times but he just doesn't change. He treats women like garbage and we've had to distance ourselves from him over the years."

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.

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Re: How do we beat these misogynists?

Post by Patterby » Thu Feb 8, 11:27 2018

Alright, I like you. I agree with your point with the only hangup being: just be careful not to become like what we oppose. But you get that. Reminds me of a Youtuber called tobuscus. I still don't know if he actually did what his ex said. A lot of people came up andc said "yeah, he's a bag of dicks but everyone knows that". The confusing part was that there were people all over the spectrum debunking or supporting claims. Tobuscus himself seemed genuinely upset and honest but I still don't know to this day (but I havent checked up on it lately. Probably should). I digress though.
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