MGTOW: Masculinity is Dead.

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MGTOW: Masculinity is Dead.

Post by SimpleMan » Mon Jan 8, 8:58 2018

Recently there have being presented a set of points against MGTOW, I think more of this points revolve around the concept of masculinity, so that's where I am going to focus on this debate line.

First of all, I want to present the idea that there is many different kinds of masculinity, and a few different kinds of men, and this is important to keep in mind because each type of man have their ways to deal with society, and with the concept of masculinity...

I know feminism is well versed in understanding some types of gender identity... for example being biological male, is a physical form of masculinity, while identifying as a male, is more of an intellectual for of masculinity, and sexual desires are or are not part of masculinity depending who you ask... as some say there is possible to be a man and love men, while some will say that this is weakened in masculinity... This is all as I said, basic gender theory that feminists usually understand very well...

There is another form of masculinity, that I am goign to call "social masculinity", because I don't know how else it is called... This is the idea society have of what a man should be... this is the expectations of the parents, the expectations of the friends, the expectations of the government, the church... and so on... this is the general expectations that society have on what a man should be.

Even feminism have their own expectations of what a man should be... I have read plenty articles on what a good allied should be... so by calling males different than females, and setting up roles and expectations in a gender division, feminism have, too, created an idea of masculinity. A form of social masculinity. (I make the point that this reinforce what is call patriarchy).

For now I will leave that point there, and Now I will talk about the different kind of men...

Feminism revolution gained the power from the 70s and increased it all the into the 90s where it was already evident that women rule the world. But because the transition is so new, we are going to have a old school men around, while at the same time the new generations of men are being rise up in a feminist system.

So most of the things that today we consider morally reproachable, like homofobia, patriarchy and what not... is being hold in the mind of old people, mostly, they think that is the right moral. While young people have a new and allegally improved moral code.

So about here enters MGTOW... to basically proclaim that masculinity is dead... all of it. It is a shock for most, but it is the reality of the fact and so we need to deal with it...

Most of the men find out in the worst possible conditions... one day they think they are the king of the castle,next day he find a divorce order with a police restriction saying that he can't get into his home again... but that is basically men that are trying to live by the old standards.... I personally was educated in the feminist world... My mother is a feminist activist, she gave me a liberal education, I don't know my father... I am a product of feminism, so for me understanding that masculinity is dead was no as bad or as traumatic, as it is for many of the other men...

So what men that believed in masculinity do when they find out that masculinity is dead? The exact same thing everybody do when they face the dead of a loved one.... they grief. I understand that there is 5 stages of grief, and here is how men grief masculinity:

DENIAL: Men will say, it is not possible that masculinity is dead, how could it be? Psychology says that people in this stage goes numb, thinking that life is meaningless and have not purpose, no knowing how to go on... But the facts are out there, masculinity is dead, so... some guys deny it for years, but the healthy thing to do is to actually move to the next stage of grief...

ANGER: Masculinity is not just dead, they said... it was murdered... and they want justice. They want to find someone they can blame and punish them hard... feminism seems to be the preferred target of choice... Now we have angry men posting crazy stuff in the internet... very often someone point this to me to tell me that this is what MGTOW is about, my claim is always that this is a phase, and they should move out of anger eventually... anyway, this anger is also towards masculinity, for instance... how could masculinity let itself be killed, it was meant to be strong and stuff... anger towards themselves too... trusting this stuff and now failing in life... a lot of anger... but that will hopefully phased out and move to next stages of grief...

BARGAINING: Here is when men tries to bring masculinity back. Some can for instance become feminists and try to assume that form of social masculinity, you of them spot them because they will say something like "I used to be a very angry man but now that i am a feminist allie..." of course they where angry, that is the stage before bargaining... Some people is MGTOW just for this reason, the M stands for "MEN"... so they think... if I go MGTOW I am being some sort of man this way... Some men will even try to rebuild their lives to resemble what they lost, mistakes where made, they say, but now I know better... But the reality is that there is not way out of it, masculinity is dead, and it is not coming back.

DEPRESSION: Some people might think that MGTOW is focused on this stage, after all... this is a description of this stage: "We withdraw from life, left in a fog of intense sadness, wondering, perhaps, if there is any point in going on alone? Why go on at all?" And some people might read that and think that it sounds an awful allot like MGTOW... in my opinion MGTOW is not a phase as per se, but the whole grief process... you will find men in all the different stages of grief... but at the en it all should resolve to the last stage...

ACCEPTANCE: Finally, we get to accept that masculinity is dead, and as I said, it is not coming back... Some might think it is not the world they prefer to live in... but what other options are there?... to adjust to the new reality and take from there on in adapting to living without masculinity. Happiness is always a good goal to pursuit... we might never be real men, but still we can enjoy life, find something enjoyable... I consider it a form of platonic hedonism...

This is what the red pill truly is about.

PUAs also turn into hedonism, but less of a platonic one and more of a physical one... and so there is a debate between MGTOW and PUAs approach... PUAs approach is to obtain sex without having to pay in any way for it, hence getting pleasure while not assuming any masculine role of responsibility... while MGTOW think this pleasure is not worth the risk, there is many other pleasures in life that can be explored and are safe... MRAs are people in denial.

In this forums half of the attacks on MGTOW have being related to pointing out men that are goign trough one or another stage of grief... and the other half is about the refusal to assume one or another form of social masculinity.

I am going to talk a bit about this second type of attacks:

It is apparent to me that there is some feminists out there that are investing a lot of efforts in "redefining masculinity", as if they are not aware that masculinity is dead. But never the less, conflict there is, because MGTOW are refusing to assume any form of masculinity, while feminism is pushing their own brand of masculinity...

For me, ideally, feminism should drop their redefined masculinity... calling me "man-child" or shaming me to assume your brand of social masculinity is no really a nice thing to do... I invite feminists to assume themselves their own redefined masculinity... if they think it is so awesome...

Take for instance this list:

101 Everyday Ways for Men to be Allies to Women
https://www.facebook.com/notes/margaret ... 385195553/

I just read trough a great number of them and I have not find a single one of the points that a woman can't also do and be a better male feminist.

But if the idea is that this list is presented as some new etiquette for people whit penises only... then no cool... before men where expected to hold the door open, now they are expected to do this 101 things instead? that is replacing classic masculinity with modern masculinity... when in reality.... masculinity is dead... very misguided if that is the intention behind this list. Women can do all that stuff too.

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Re: MGTOW: Masculinity is Dead.

Post by Taurwen » Mon Jan 8, 11:07 2018

Please explain why/how masculinity is dead.

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Re: MGTOW: Masculinity is Dead.

Post by DarkOne » Mon Jan 8, 11:23 2018

"First of all, I want to present the idea that there is many different kinds of masculinity, and a few different kinds of men, and ..." Not really an idea that needs introduction; has been discussed before in this forum.

In any case. R.I.P. dead masculinity. You had a good run.

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Skip to the end: "But if the idea is that this list is presented as some new etiquette for people whit penises only... then no cool..." No. The list is saying suggesting quite the opposite: that it's not ONLY women who need to do this.
Last edited by DarkOne on Mon Jan 8, 13:00 2018, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: MGTOW: Masculinity is Dead.

Post by Sonic# » Mon Jan 8, 11:41 2018

My problems with this argument come down to your overall presumption (expressed in a few threads) that as a feminist I don't understand masculinity, MGTOW, or related concepts, combined with your presumption that you understand what feminism has done.
Feminism revolution gained the power from the 70s and increased it all the into the 90s where it was already evident that women rule the world.
No? This statement is akin to stating that 10% ~ 50%, or that giving women a place at the table is equivalent to women ruling the table.

There were incremental steps made in this time to give women more economic and social power. More women worked, the gender pay gap shrunk some (crossing 75% of men's pay around 1990), and more women entered legislatures (10.3% in the US House of Representatives by 1994). Given the disparities in even a superficial analysis, it's clear that women don't rule the world.

Specific to the separation scenario you describe (a man surprised to be forbidden from re-entering his house by the police), I would suggest first that the specific scenario isn't that common. The overall divorce rate is about 3.2 per 1,000 people a year, and fewer than 50% of marriages end in divorce. Obtaining a domestic restraining order (often on a basis of "the preponderance of the evidence " in the US, though this varies by state) is more complex than simply leaving, so more people would do the latter. Then, on average, women end up with lower incomes after divorce, whereas men end up with higher incomes. Summarily, while there are thousands of men who have that experience, that scenario is not evidence that women rule the world or masculinity is dead, but evidence that ending relationships can take one acrimonious form out of many for both women and men (let us not pretend that men never throw women out). It is some of these men who choose to make the incident about their masculinity.
I know feminism is well versed in understanding some types of gender identity... for example being biological male, is a physical form of masculinity, while identifying as a male, is more of an intellectual for of masculinity, and sexual desires are or are not part of masculinity depending who you ask... as some say there is possible to be a man and love men, while some will say that this is weakened in masculinity... This is all as I said, basic gender theory that feminists usually understand very well...

There is another form of masculinity, that I am goign to call "social masculinity", because I don't know how else it is called... This is the idea society have of what a man should be... this is the expectations of the parents, the expectations of the friends, the expectations of the government, the church... and so on... this is the general expectations that society have on what a man should be.
"Social masculinity" sounds like one of a few concepts: patriarchy, kyriarchy, or hegemonic masculinity. The first two terms are applicable because you're describing a structural or systematic form of gender: "the idea society has of what a man should be" - kyriarchy especially explains intersecting systems that suppress individuals based on multiple factors, some of which they may benefit from: so gender (feminine, masculine), sex, race, social status, disability, and so on. Meanwhile, hegemonic masculinity holds that there is an ideal (hegemonic or ruling) masculinity reinforced by society, one to which other men and forms of masculinity respond. In short, hegemonic masculinity provides an aspirational model for how men should be: how they should pursue women (heterosexuality) and how they should compete with other men (homosociality). Other people then end up discussing masculinity around that model.

Judith Butler, Jack Halberstam, and R. W. Connell are all decent starting points for understanding how social systems might create or reinforce particular kinds of masculinity to individual subjects. They started conversations that helped me (and a lot of other people) recognize the binary that even a lot of popular feminists can end up falling into. I won't go into further detail here - there are lots of online discussions about them, and you can check out their books if you want to engage directly with their research.

To close, I just want to point out that you're still caught up in hegemonic masculinity. The whole 5-step approach that you try to create feels off for two reasons. First, it feels like a hasty generalization or a bad analogy. Psychologists already know that people don't move through the five stages of grief linearly, that people can oscillate from depression back to anger and from acceptance through the previous steps. Who is to say that a grief model is a better analogy than any other analogy for processing an event or phenomenon? The analogy makes MGTOW the only viable end-point, even though a lot of men end up as feminists, allies, or people relatively happy in their lives and relationships without thinking critically about gender. Calling that "bargaining" suggests a loss that possibly never happened. Second, the masculinity being mourned still feels like an instance of "hegemonic masculinity," or taking for granted that "real men" or "ideal men" are a category to be strived for. Even acceptance involves complacency at being abject. "Acceptance" isn't saying "masculinity is dead," but rather "long live the masculinity that I can't imagine being a part of."

In other words, the entire model sketched out here still dwells within a form of masculinity that is alive and well, a masculinity that works by making femininity and non-normative desires into things to be feared, fought, and finally stepped away from. MGTOW is not letting go of that; it's the inability to let go.

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Re: MGTOW: Masculinity is Dead.

Post by Plotthickens » Mon Jan 8, 11:59 2018

Sonic# wrote:
Mon Jan 8, 11:41 2018
Judith Butler, Jack Halberstam, and R. W. Connell are all decent starting points for understanding how social systems might create or reinforce particular kinds of masculinity to individual subjects. They started conversations that helped me (and a lot of other people) recognize the binary that even a lot of popular feminists can end up falling into. I won't go into further detail here - there are lots of online discussions about them, and you can check out their books if you want to engage directly with their research.
This sounds like something I need to learn. Could you recommend a few books, or better, online resources?
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Re: MGTOW: Masculinity is Dead.

Post by SimpleMan » Mon Jan 8, 19:43 2018

Taurwen wrote:
Mon Jan 8, 11:07 2018
Please explain why/how masculinity is dead.
Hi, thanks for the question.

Unfortunately I have not idea why it died and how... Maybe other people that have more interested in the topic of masculinity can answer all this questions, like:

How it started? How it was different from different cultures, or how it changed through the past of time... why it lasted so long?... and finally how and why it died?

I don't know the answer to any of those questions, and the topic doesn't interest me enough to research it, so the question still open if someone know, please let us know.

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Re: MGTOW: Masculinity is Dead.

Post by SimpleMan » Mon Jan 8, 19:45 2018

DarkOne wrote:
Mon Jan 8, 11:23 2018
"First of all, I want to present the idea that there is many different kinds of masculinity, and a few different kinds of men, and ..." Not really an idea that needs introduction; has been discussed before in this forum.

In any case. R.I.P. dead masculinity. You had a good run.
RIP masculinity, lol.
Skip to the end: "But if the idea is that this list is presented as some new etiquette for people whit penises only... then no cool..." No. The list is saying suggesting quite the opposite: that it's not ONLY women who need to do this.
Oh, OK, I have seeing many of those lists and never understood such thing from the intro, but thanks for clearing this out.

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Re: MGTOW: Masculinity is Dead.

Post by SimpleMan » Mon Jan 8, 20:38 2018

Sonic# wrote:
Mon Jan 8, 11:41 2018
My problems with this argument come down to your overall presumption (expressed in a few threads) that as a feminist I don't understand masculinity, MGTOW, or related concepts, combined with your presumption that you understand what feminism has done.
it is my opinion.. I think feminism does OK understanding masculinity, though usually feminists have a lot of fantasies and stuff that are not real... and about MGTOW, so far I can say that there was a significant number of feminists in this forums that did not even knew what MGTOW is... and there is some few that totally have the wrong idea.
No? This statement is akin to stating that 10% ~ 50%, or that giving women a place at the table is equivalent to women ruling the table...


We definitely have a whole different understanding of the history of feminism... For instance some things you here date to the 80s i actually date to the French Revolution... perhaps feminism is way more older than what you think?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_ ... Revolution
...and fewer than 50% of marriages end in divorce...
The number is actually increasing like crazy... 3 years ago it was fewer than 40%... I have seeing predictions that say it will stabilize in 70 or 80%...
Obtaining a domestic restraining order...
Is very easy, a woman have to say few words to the cops and that will be enough for the cops to grant it...

I just did a google search and found a couple of links here is one:

"In many states, when the police encounter a domestic violence situation one of the two parties involved in the dispute is required or requested to leave the home. Often, this person is the abuser, although the police can be mistaken about who the aggressor is."
http://family.findlaw.com/domestic-viol ... rders.html

The other link clearly say that just by feeling threatened it is good enough to file for the order:

"If you are being abused in any of these ways or you feel afraid or controlled by your partner or someone you are close with, it may help you to talk to a domestic violence counselor"
http://www.courts.ca.gov/selfhelp-domesticviolence.htm

This is, again, the top search results I got... I am sure there is more info on the results...

Your other argument about alimony... I am not even going to address it.. like... really? A woman just get 40% of the man's income?
Summarily, while there are thousands of men who have that experience, that scenario is not evidence that women rule the world or masculinity is dead
Ohhh there is a lot more evidence that masculinity is dead... it is in the schools, it is in the government, it is pretty much everywhere, except few private organizations that honestly.. are in denial.
"Social masculinity" sounds like one of a few concepts: patriarchy, kyriarchy, or hegemonic masculinity.
I gave it the best name I can, but i see you have some good options for naming it too...
The first two terms are applicable because you're describing a structural or systematic form of gender: "the idea society has of what a man should be" - kyriarchy especially explains intersecting systems that suppress individuals based on multiple factors, some of which they may benefit from: so gender (feminine, masculine), sex, race, social status, disability, and so on. Meanwhile, hegemonic masculinity holds that there is an ideal (hegemonic or ruling) masculinity reinforced by society, one to which other men and forms of masculinity respond. In short, hegemonic masculinity provides an aspirational model for how men should be: how they should pursue women (heterosexuality) and how they should compete with other men (homosociality). Other people then end up discussing masculinity around that model.
Thanks for your explanation. For what you say, I can right upfront discard the hegemonic one... I live in a multicultural metropolis, there is not a dominant culture here, hence there is not a dominant form of masculinity.

Patriarchy... I am not sure about this word, as i mention that feminism does have it's own version of masculinity... unless we are willing to agree that in some level feminism is promoting patriarchy?

The Kyriarchy sounds like a progresiv stack to me...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_stack

Basically building up a system of labels and claiming that some labels have it better than others, then go around labeling people and claiming that they are evils or victims, accordingly to the label system...
Judith Butler, Jack Halberstam, and R. W. Connell are all decent starting points for understanding how social systems might create or reinforce particular kinds of masculinity to individual subjects. They started conversations that helped me (and a lot of other people) recognize the binary that even a lot of popular feminists can end up falling into. I won't go into further detail here - there are lots of online discussions about them, and you can check out their books if you want to engage directly with their research.
t sounds interesting, but also sounds like it is not really relevant to my personal situation... For example you talk about social system, while I am saying that I am withdrawing from society...
To close, I just want to point out that you're still caught up in hegemonic masculinity. The whole 5-step approach that you try to create feels off for two reasons. First, it feels like a hasty generalization or a bad analogy. Psychologists already know that people don't move through the five stages of grief linearly, that people can oscillate from depression back to anger and from acceptance through the previous steps.
Then people grieving masculinity will oscillate the same...
Who is to say that a grief model is a better analogy than any other analogy for processing an event or phenomenon? The analogy makes MGTOW the only viable end-point, even though a lot of men end up as feminists, allies, or people relatively happy in their lives and relationships without thinking critically about gender.
Well.. it looks like there is not many options to pick form... and it looks like they will be even less... so yeah, you are right, some men will try other options, but the thing is this... it does not matter what strategy men try to use to win the social game, men will always lose, because the rules of the game say so... So in my opinion the options are to engage in the game an lose, or to no play at all.
Calling that "bargaining" suggests a loss that possibly never happened. Second, the masculinity being mourned still feels like an instance of "hegemonic masculinity," or taking for granted that "real men" or "ideal men" are a category to be strived for. Even acceptance involves complacency at being abject. "Acceptance" isn't saying "masculinity is dead," but rather "long live the masculinity that I can't imagine being a part of."
Well, that is what it is... in my case, I am biologically a man, that identifies as a man but never had a option to develop masculinity... so at the end I finally cope with it, but if an option was presented I think I would have take it... but it was not presented, it is too late now so... whatever.
In other words, the entire model sketched out here still dwells within a form of masculinity that is alive and well, a masculinity that works by making femininity and non-normative desires into things to be feared, fought, and finally stepped away from. MGTOW is not letting go of that; it's the inability to let go.
Perhaps you're right on that, i am goign to think about it.

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Re: MGTOW: Masculinity is Dead.

Post by Pikachu » Mon Jan 8, 23:49 2018

MGTOW rejects traditional masculinity in major ways.

- The role of provider, protector, and pursuer (of sex and relationships). These are thrown out in favour of a masculinity that is completely defined by self fulfillment. Society wants and needs men to inhabit these roles, so many parts of masculinity are not dead, but have always been based on self sacrifice, be it for king and country, for your boss, and for women and children. Men engaged in that because there was honour attached to it and men who did so were celebrated, but that doesn't exist anymore, married men are portrayed as trapped, or relegated to man caves, and with little to no father's rights, and with no fault divorce, and with bizarre divorce settlements: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... vorce.html it's now rather considered risky and unrewarding by the man who prioritizes the self and his own enjoyment.

Any disapproval or condemnation of this lifestyle would have to include the notions that a man owes the collective beyond what just makes him content as an individual. The imperative of the individual is not beholden to the imperative of the species. That is the definition of sentience. In other words, we're all free to live the lives the way we want as long as it's legal and we all don't have to agree. So go do that, Simpleman. You don't need the understanding of feminists to do so.

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Re: MGTOW: Masculinity is Dead.

Post by geldofc » Thu Jan 11, 15:06 2018

loads of people are attracted to masculine people still (unfortunately!!). maybe MGTOW folks would know this if they didn't self isolate in anger?? i associate masculinity in the real world w abuse often now tbh. feminism lets men feel ok with acting like full human beings rather than getting their self worth from objectifying people, manipulating people, abusing drugs, neglecting people, having an overall low self-esteem, and feeling their fragile masculinity is threatened by women or nb people being sexual or successful or flourishing. way too many men are threatened by women acting like humans or succeeding and it's revolting from my experience!!
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Re: MGTOW: Masculinity is Dead.

Post by SimpleMan » Fri Jan 12, 0:03 2018

geldofc wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 15:06 2018
loads of people are attracted to masculine people still (unfortunately!!). maybe MGTOW folks would know this if they didn't self isolate in anger?? i associate masculinity in the real world w abuse often now tbh. feminism lets men feel ok with acting like full human beings rather than getting their self worth from objectifying people, manipulating people, abusing drugs, neglecting people, having an overall low self-esteem, and feeling their fragile masculinity is threatened by women or nb people being sexual or successful or flourishing. way too many men are threatened by women acting like humans or succeeding and it's revolting from my experience!!
It looks like you are finally starting to agree with me... I think that is awesome, considering that few weeks ago your opinion of MGTOW was nothing less than "fascists"...

Thanks for keeping the open mind, and considering this points i am trying to make.

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