Can Pro-Lifers Be Feminists?

Moderators: Enigma, Sonic#

Post Reply
DevilsAdvocate123

Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 6:48 2017
Contact:

Can Pro-Lifers Be Feminists?

Post by DevilsAdvocate123 » Thu Feb 8, 21:21 2018

Hi everybody, I wanted to ask if you can be a feminist and be pro-life at the same time.


Personally, I'm pro-choice, but I've seen some really bad arguments for being pro-choice. Let me elaborate on the worst arguments I've heard for being pro-choice:


1) "What if the mother can't to take care of the child?"

While that is an unfortunate situation, the financial status of the mother has nothing to do with the baby being a life or not.


2) "What if the mother was raped?"

Rape is horrible. Rapists are horrible. They have no place in our society. However, that being said, the fact that the mother was raped has nothing to do with the baby being a life or not.


3) "A fetus can't survive on its own. It is fully dependent on its mother's body, unlike born human beings."

-If somebody were temporarily on life support, that doesn't mean it's okay to kill the person. It's important to make arguments that are philosophically consistent.

4) "The mother has the right to do what she wants to with her body. The government can't infringe on her freedom like that."

-It's actually a matter of the baby's body that people are concerned with. Of course people shouldn't infringe on other people's lives. The exception is when they are infringing on somebody else's life.

5) "What if the baby has down syndrome?"

-Down syndrome is not a life threatening condition. Case closed. And yet, Denmark aborts over 90% of children with down syndrome.




Basically I think the only exception for abortion is when a life-threatening condition enters the picture, or if the baby isn't considered a life yet. Some consider me pro-choice up until a certain point in time, and others call me pro-life after a certain point in time. Either way, I wanted to ask a question that actually looks out for "pro-lifers". I've seen so many feminists lately try to revoke these people's "feminist cards" it seems like.

Can these people be considered feminists?
Last edited by DevilsAdvocate123 on Thu Feb 8, 21:28 2018, edited 4 times in total.

User avatar
geldofc
member
member
Posts: 273
Joined: Sun Apr 3, 2:00 2016
Location: Orange County, California

Re: Abortion

Post by geldofc » Thu Feb 8, 21:23 2018

no.
:gf: :devil: :syringe:

DevilsAdvocate123

Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 6:48 2017
Contact:

Re: Abortion

Post by DevilsAdvocate123 » Thu Feb 8, 21:25 2018

geldofc wrote:
Thu Feb 8, 21:23 2018
no.
Why not?


People say that to be a feminist, "all you have to do is believe in the equality of men and women". Signing up for that doesn't mean you sign up for being pro-choice. Could you elaborate?
Last edited by DevilsAdvocate123 on Thu Feb 8, 21:41 2018, edited 2 times in total.

Taurwen
member
member
Posts: 302
Joined: Sat Jul 2, 9:33 2016

Re: Can Pro-Lifers Be Feminists?

Post by Taurwen » Thu Feb 8, 21:36 2018

Hi mate, there was a thread about this last year I think. viewtopic.php?f=28&t=49905

Personally, I don't consider it to be a feminist issue, but a human one. Bodily Autonomy (which I realize you touched on and dismissed for reasons you did not express in any convincing way). I don't think less of someone as a feminist if they are Pro-Life, I think less of them as a person.

DevilsAdvocate123

Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 6:48 2017
Contact:

Re: Can Pro-Lifers Be Feminists?

Post by DevilsAdvocate123 » Thu Feb 8, 21:42 2018

Can Pro-Lifers Be Feminists?

So far we have the following:

"no."

and we have a

" I don't think less of someone as a feminist if they are Pro-Life, I think less of them as a person."




Does this mean that "believing in the equality of men and women" isn't what it takes for somebody to be a feminist? Is supporting abortion a requirement for being a feminist?
Last edited by DevilsAdvocate123 on Thu Feb 8, 21:47 2018, edited 5 times in total.

DevilsAdvocate123

Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 6:48 2017
Contact:

Re: Can Pro-Lifers Be Feminists?

Post by DevilsAdvocate123 » Thu Feb 8, 21:42 2018

Taurwen wrote:
Thu Feb 8, 21:36 2018
Bodily Autonomy (which I realize you touched on and dismissed for reasons you did not express in any convincing way). I don't think less of someone as a feminist if they are Pro-Life, I think less of them as a person.

Could you elaborate?

Taurwen
member
member
Posts: 302
Joined: Sat Jul 2, 9:33 2016

Re: Can Pro-Lifers Be Feminists?

Post by Taurwen » Thu Feb 8, 22:18 2018

I believe in the right of bodily autonomy is a basic right that shouldn't be compromised, least of all by a government. You might think abortion has to do with a baby and not the woman, but what someone does with their uterus is completely their decision. Furthermore, pregnancy and birth are not risk free endeavours, and the hormones can wreak havoc on a person's body, so not only is it an issue with what someone does with their uterus, but what they do with their whole body, including their mental health.
Donating a liver is much less of an intrusion, and saves a life that society has already invested in. But if the police started rolling up to people's doors and demanding they undergo liver donation people would (rightfully) riot. Hell, even making blood donation mandatory would be atrocious, and that'll just make you weak for a couple days.

If you want to make it a feminist issue, and your goal is to protect innocent life then you're better off with prevention and education. Making birth control easily available, teaching people about their bodies.
Which also leads to the fact that making abortion illegal won't stop it from happening, it'll just make women more likely to die in the process. So AGAIN you're better off with prevention and education. The fact that so many reject that leads me to believe Pro-Life people really just want to control women.

So yes, I think to be pro life one either has to be morally corrupt, or idiotic.

User avatar
Storage and Disposal
member
member
Posts: 6265
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 5:31 2004
Location: Iowa
Contact:

Re: Abortion

Post by Storage and Disposal » Sat Feb 10, 0:21 2018

DevilsAdvocate123 wrote:
Thu Feb 8, 21:21 2018
4) "The mother has the right to do what she wants to with her body. The government can't infringe on her freedom like that."

-It's actually a matter of the baby's body...


If you feel the need to start a topic concerning a woman's body with, "It's actually a matter of..." then you probably aren't worth a debate. You've said your overly simplistic view and no argument is going to change that.
DevilsAdvocate123 wrote:
Thu Feb 8, 21:25 2018
People say that to be a feminist, "all you have to do is believe in the equality of men and women".
And these people don't know what they're talking about. To me, saying such things is just an attempt to prove that everyone should be a feminist. It's like saying, "If you crave meat, then you shouldn't be a vegetarian!" In what world are things that simple?

Having said that, I think a feminist can be pro-life much like a shitty work of art can still be considered art. Just because it's art doesn't make it good art.
"He weeps for he has but one small tongue with which to taste an entire world." - Dr. Mungmung

User avatar
SimpleMan
member
member
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 10:49 2017
Location: US

Re: Can Pro-Lifers Be Feminists?

Post by SimpleMan » Sat Feb 10, 1:51 2018

I personally don't have an opinion on this topic. As much as I know for a fact that I will never be pregnant.

In some way I feel fortunate that I will never find myself in a situation where I have to make such decision.

The only thing that kinds of bugs me, is the part of who should pay for the abortion... There is compelling arguments in favor and in opposition of making taxpayers foot the bill...

Taurwen
member
member
Posts: 302
Joined: Sat Jul 2, 9:33 2016

Re: Can Pro-Lifers Be Feminists?

Post by Taurwen » Sat Feb 10, 7:47 2018

If tax money can be used on war, it can be used on abortion. And I'd argue if one has issues with tax money being used to end lives they should start with the former concern first.

User avatar
SimpleMan
member
member
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 10:49 2017
Location: US

Re: Can Pro-Lifers Be Feminists?

Post by SimpleMan » Sat Feb 10, 9:44 2018

Oh, my "concerns" are not about ending lifes... are mostly about... paying for other people bad decisions... In the same fashion of "my body, my choice"... I would say: "My money, my decisions"???

Even though there is so many options for not getting pregnant, like the so call next day pill, or the so... But I don't really have any research on that, so I don't really know... wasn't that pill the whole deal about the sexual revolution?

Anyway, In the OP there are mentioned different situations that end in abortion... the case where it is determined that the creature is coming defective, like down syndrome... I think the society should help pay that bill. As well as the rape one...

Back to my argument... to give some framework, I do not oppose gay marriage, I actually don't care at all for it, so if gays want to married, that is none of my business. Now, if for some reason they decided that it is their right to make me pay for their weddings... well... that will definitely change my point of view on it...

About wars... I personally find most of them stupid, and yes, I should not be made pay for them, or even made to fight them... when I am not getting any benefit out of the whole exercice... I am a bit cynical on this topic, as I think that the reason why most of the wars are fought is basically for money, so... how come the people that don't fight them but send others to fight are the ones that end up with the money? I would not support a money war specially If I am the one paying with cash and blood, while at the end I never get to see any booty.

I am more OK with non for profit wars.

That is it...

Ah... if you donate a liver you know you will die? anyway I get what you said, but I just have to imagine it with a kidney instead.

User avatar
Mordak

Posts: 99
Joined: Tue May 6, 6:20 2003
Location: The Outback
Contact:

Re: Can Pro-Lifers Be Feminists?

Post by Mordak » Sat Feb 10, 10:04 2018

SimpleMan wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 9:44 2018


Anyway, In the OP there are mentioned different situations that end in abortion... the case where it is determined that the creature is coming defective, like down syndrome... I think the society should help pay that bill. As well as the rape one...

You're gonna want to change that "creature" euphamism dude. People born with down syndrome are not defective in any way, shape or form. My uncle had down syndrome, quite severely, for nearly 70 years before he passed away happy and loving life in his sleep in the nursing home he went to after his carer (his sister) passed away herself. He was a brilliant man. Couldn't speak a word of english, had facial deformities but he was still a person and he taught me so much about appreciating the small things, the things that normally wouldnt catch the eye of another person.

What you're saying is close to hate speech for millions of people around the world who embrace and nurture their disabled loved ones.

My uncle taught me to love music, how to do arts and crafts and how to stir up mischeif as a kid. He knew exactly how to get his sister to do anything for him. We used to sit and play records and pretend to prank call on his old little telephone, and even though his english words for me and my mum and sister were "caa, taa and saa" his ability to convey meaning through gestures did NOT make him simply a "creature".

What are you aiming to achieve by posting this stuff, mate? Are you just here to hurt peoples feelings? Theres only so much argueing people can do before they just get bored of it.
Seasons don't fear the reaper... but everyone else fucking does. #metoomanytimes
:australia: :australia: :australia: :drool: :schoolbus:

User avatar
SimpleMan
member
member
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 10:49 2017
Location: US

Re: Can Pro-Lifers Be Feminists?

Post by SimpleMan » Sat Feb 10, 10:37 2018

When I said "creature"... I was talking about the fetus, because I just don't feel like calling it a "baby"... and Fetus is kind of a weird sounding word....

So... if the fetus come defective, then flush it.... that is pretty much what I wanted to say.

What I find interesting about your post here, is that so far you're the first feminist in this debate making a point against abortion...

So, what about the other examples giving on the OP? Is it OK to abort poor people? I can see the point why rich people want to pay for poor people abortions... what's your take on that? I have an uncle that was poor, and he was such a great human creature... ;)

User avatar
Sonic#
member
member
Posts: 5394
Joined: Sat Nov 7, 9:37 2009
Location: Georgia, US

Re: Can Pro-Lifers Be Feminists?

Post by Sonic# » Sat Feb 10, 10:47 2018

SimpleMan, you're breaking the guideline for personal conversations - you've posted 3 times within a 5 post stretch, which twists the conversation to center too much on you. Try to give the conversation some time (a day or so or a couple of replies) before replying again.

Taurwen
member
member
Posts: 302
Joined: Sat Jul 2, 9:33 2016

Re: Can Pro-Lifers Be Feminists?

Post by Taurwen » Sat Feb 10, 13:22 2018

SimpleMan wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 9:44 2018


Ah... if you donate a liver you know you will die? anyway I get what you said, but I just have to imagine it with a kidney instead.
Just an aside, I chose liver because livers regenerate, you donate a kidney and you're down to one kidney. You can absolutely become a living donor by donating (half of) your liver. Here's the FAQ from the main place that does it in my city http://www.uhn.ca/MOT/Living_Donor_Prog ... #questions
I think it's something everyone should consider because I think it's super cool that we can do stuff like this. Science! Medicine! Huzzah!

User avatar
SimpleMan
member
member
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 10:49 2017
Location: US

Re: Can Pro-Lifers Be Feminists?

Post by SimpleMan » Sun Feb 11, 23:48 2018

Anyway... to wrap this up...

I was making a point between the different circumstances of abortion... and I mention that if the creature is coming defective I think society should help pay the bill..

I mentioned down syndrome, because that is what it is mention in the OP... but anyway... if down syndrome is not a defect, then simply... society should not help pay for aborting such healthy person, let the woman figure out that bill.

Then again all the arguments about abortion being genocide, and murder, and hate crimes and what not... I let those for religious ignorants, I guess it is their freedom of believing whatever nonsense they like... But just for the records, this kind of righteousness morally superior arguments don't sit well with me, this kind of arguments have never worked with me in the pass and there is not reason why it should work with me now...

I am not opposing abortions I just say I don't think I should pay for them... then I mentioned some abortion situations where I think my tax money should be invested on... So to make it clear one last time.... I think everybody can get aborted, healthy or not, but in some cases society should help pay for it... and in aborting down syndrome... screw them, society should not pay for that because somebody's uncle...

Plotthickens

Posts: 122
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 17:21 2017

Re: Can Pro-Lifers Be Feminists?

Post by Plotthickens » Mon Feb 12, 9:52 2018

DevilsAdvocate123 wrote:
Thu Feb 8, 21:21 2018
-It's actually a matter of the baby's body that people are concerned with. Of course people shouldn't infringe on other people's lives. The exception is when they are infringing on somebody else's life.
So you're OK with mandatory organ harvesting? China has it. Get arrested, go to jail... come out minus a kidney, a liver lobe, a good stretch of skin, and your health and vitality. But some rich person's life was saved, they don't have to be "infringed" upon. So that's okay to you?

DevilsAdvocate123 wrote:
Thu Feb 8, 21:25 2018
geldofc wrote:
Thu Feb 8, 21:23 2018
no.
Why not?
My answer is because men have full bodily autonomy. Women do not. If you're for full equality of the sexes, then you want everyone to have the same opportunities, including bodily autonomy.
Last edited by Plotthickens on Mon Feb 12, 10:02 2018, edited 1 time in total.
DaHjaj 'oH QaQ jaj gerbils vISop

Taurwen
member
member
Posts: 302
Joined: Sat Jul 2, 9:33 2016

Re: Can Pro-Lifers Be Feminists?

Post by Taurwen » Mon Feb 12, 11:48 2018

@SimpleMan, you insist on using the term creature after being asked not to because you don't like the word foetus. Maybe if you can't handle the terminology you shouldn't join in on the conversation especially when you're talking about something only strenuously tenuously attached to the topic actually under discussion.

(edited because my auto correct hates me recently and I don't know what I did to offend it.)

Post Reply