Compromise between Conservatives/TERFeminism and Transfeminism.

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Compromise between Conservatives/TERFeminism and Transfeminism.

Post by Pikachu » Thu Jul 5, 9:40 2018

Proposal:

Access to women's only centres: A transwoman can access them if there's evidence of 2 years on HRT, just like the olympics. Anyone who doesn't qualify can still be allowed access at the women's centre's discretion.

Sports : 2 yeard HRT is required at every level of sport.

Changing rooms: Transwomen are allowed in women's changing rooms, but the showing of a penis is a bannable offence, and if there's hard proof, a crime.

Anyone who talks about having a "girlcock" should have their womanhood publically revoked. Everyone should consider that person a perverted man from then on. The traditional lesbianism stays cis on cis, while a separate orientation called trans lesbianism is for any time one or more of the partners is a transwoman.

Bathrooms: Single stall neutral/bi gender bathrooms should be more common in case a transwoman and cis woman don't want to share the woman's bathroom with each other.

The misgendering stops or is greatly diminished on the ConservaTERF's side. If they want trans children to stop, they need to stop mocking the non passing.

I know they never will come to an agreement, but I think this could work in theory.

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Re: Compromise between Conservatives/TERFeminism and Transfeminism.

Post by Sonic# » Fri Jul 6, 11:28 2018

Is greater regulation of trans bodies a viable solution to gender policing?

I don't think that's a great answer. If you require trans women to prove they're women, then you're perpetuating an expectation that trans women are not automatically women. If what allows them to be women in a specific space is an official regulatory standard, then you're validating a form of gender policing. That's not a compromise at all; that's establishing an even firmer regulatory separation between women and transwomen. I'd be exceptionally wary of that, since such rules often precede and predicate further segregation and exclusion.

The only place that might make sense is where bodies are already strictly regulated regardless of gender: with sports this seems like an extension of the already-intense scrutiny on drug and hormone levels (which is a whole other topic), and a space like a lactation room can be defined around the function rather than an identity.

Rather than forcing some people to conform to a set of regulations to access a space, I prefer solutions that change the space to be friendlier to all kinds of people. Single-stall bathrooms and gender-neutral bathrooms create a standard for access that requires no regulation of the bodies within it. A women's-only space where self-identification is respected can function fine, and any attempts to manipulate those policies can be headed off with rules against harassment and accompanying behaviors rather than rules against who a person is.

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Re: Compromise between Conservatives/TERFeminism and Transfeminism.

Post by Aum » Wed Jul 11, 16:21 2018

I dunno... after being to nude beaches, where everyone is there including all the sexes, adults, children, the elderly, etc... I see a world where different change rooms aren't even necessary. Same with bathrooms. If you travel in Quebec there are unisex bathrooms. There's so much talk about having a third bathroom for the transgendered but no conversations at all of simply amalgamating the bathrooms away from the obsolete gender binary. I say that as a self-identified cis man. Like, who cares how long someone has been on HRT or if they have a visible penis? How is that even relevant? It's just a human body. If people weren't such prudes and such binary thinkers, it would all be a non-issue. Children don't care, why do adults?

But this would require a lot of social liberalization. I can see it working on the west coast and liberal areas, but forget it in the conservative places. It would also require people to view bodies non-sexually. Again, I reference nude beaches. Yeah people check each other out, but it's also a non-issue. Bodies are bodies and even if you wore clothes they'd be checking you out anyway. The human body is overly sexualized in the United States. That was my biggest fear of going to a nude beach for the first time, that I'd be objectified. Actually, the situation is dynamic like anywhere else. Most people aren't even looking / don't care. Maybe people look at you for various reasons which may or may not include sexuality, but it's in passing. It's not predatory.

The point of a separate washroom or changeroom would be for people who want the extra privacy, for ANY reason, not just for trans people. A lot of people are uncomfortable changing in public spaces, or using the bathroom in public spaces. I sometimes use the third washroom because the men's one hasn't been cleaned, it's full, or I just feel like having the extra space. (I have a disability that relates to using the washroom.)

We need to neutralize the politics around this. Key word: neutral. Don't put to the focus on any one gender or sex by othering them further; just neutralize it for everyone. One washroom and one changeroom for everyone. If you've got a problem then take it to the auxiliary space.
The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.

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Re: Compromise between Conservatives/TERFeminism and Transfeminism.

Post by Pikachu » Fri Jul 13, 10:35 2018

I don't think alot of men would be capable of not sexually harrassing woman in a shared changing room. Even if it only comes in the form of staring that makes the women feel threatened.

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Re: Compromise between Conservatives/TERFeminism and Transfeminism.

Post by Aum » Fri Jul 13, 11:23 2018

Pikachu wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 10:35 2018
I don't think alot of men would be capable of not sexually harrassing woman in a shared changing room. Even if it only comes in the form of staring that makes the women feel threatened.
That's the same argument that straight men make against sharing locker rooms with gay men.

If you're so afraid of being harassed or raped, then use the alternate change room.

Your comment is sexist and gross, btw. The vast majority of men would not sexually harass anybody in a change room.
The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.

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Re: Compromise between Conservatives/TERFeminism and Transfeminism.

Post by melsbells » Sat Jul 14, 15:11 2018

I don't think this proposed compromise does anything to address the safety of trans persons in public restrooms or changing rooms. I've been to plenty of places that had single stall restrooms that weren't gendered, and plenty that were. There is no reason for a single occupancy restroom to specify gender. In a setup to accommodate greater use, single fully private stalls with full locking doors could be set up in an open hall with sinks in a common access area. Do the partial doors provide some sort of safety that I'm overlooking? Restrooms can be dangerous because they are often secluded. If we're going to compromise with conservatives and TERFs on bathrooms and changing spaces, actually make it about everyone's safety.

I've wondered a lot about how sauna culture could adapt to safety. At the moment public saunas are gender/sex segregated. Although I would fully support the switch back to an all sex/gender public sauna, safety in that situation has to come culturally instead of structurally. I can't imagine how a single occupancy public sauna would be engineered. The same goes for a nude beach.

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Re: Compromise between Conservatives/TERFeminism and Transfeminism.

Post by Pikachu » Sun Jul 15, 1:44 2018

Aum wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 11:23 2018
Pikachu wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 10:35 2018
I don't think alot of men would be capable of not sexually harrassing woman in a shared changing room. Even if it only comes in the form of staring that makes the women feel threatened.
That's the same argument that straight men make against sharing locker rooms with gay men.

If you're so afraid of being harassed or raped, then use the alternate change room.

Your comment is sexist and gross, btw. The vast majority of men would not sexually harass anybody in a change room.
Your ideas of putting women at risk is gross and sexist. Seems somewhere down the road, your feminism forgot about women.

The vast majority of men don't sexually harass to begin with. We aren't talking about the majority. That had better be one big "alternate" changing room, because I suspect the majority of women will want to use it if it ever becomes acceptable for a transwoman who looks indistinguishable from a cis man to walk around naked in it.

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Re: Compromise between Conservatives/TERFeminism and Transfeminism.

Post by Taurwen » Sun Jul 15, 13:02 2018

I don't think Cis women are nearly as afraid of trans women as Cis men are.

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Re: Compromise between Conservatives/TERFeminism and Transfeminism.

Post by Aum » Wed Jul 18, 12:19 2018

melsbells wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 15:11 2018
I don't think this proposed compromise does anything to address the safety of trans persons in public restrooms or changing rooms. I've been to plenty of places that had single stall restrooms that weren't gendered, and plenty that were. There is no reason for a single occupancy restroom to specify gender. In a setup to accommodate greater use, single fully private stalls with full locking doors could be set up in an open hall with sinks in a common access area. Do the partial doors provide some sort of safety that I'm overlooking? Restrooms can be dangerous because they are often secluded. If we're going to compromise with conservatives and TERFs on bathrooms and changing spaces, actually make it about everyone's safety.
That's mostly what I'm talking about when I refer to a third change room. Either single stalls or some kind of shared common space that has a lot of stalls.

Keep in mind too that even in gender segregated restrooms, there are still people who opt to use stalls to change. I did it for the longest time because I was body conscious, even though I'm a cis man surrounded by other cis men.

I think it has more to do with a person's attitude toward body image than it does their gender. People who don't care are not going to care no matter who is around them, while self-conscious people will remain self-conscious.
melsbells wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 15:11 2018
I've wondered a lot about how sauna culture could adapt to safety. At the moment public saunas are gender/sex segregated. Although I would fully support the switch back to an all sex/gender public sauna, safety in that situation has to come culturally instead of structurally. I can't imagine how a single occupancy public sauna would be engineered. The same goes for a nude beach.
I don't really get the concerns about safety, to be honest. It's communally monitored in addition to being monitored by the organization providing the space. Nude beach culture is very benign. I have gone for years and only witnessed a few incidents (we're talking 2 or 3 in 10 years), mostly pervy men who got caught staring or engaging sexually and then got called out by the community. I have seen women act inappropriately too but of course they rarely get called out because women can't possibly be pervs.

Nude beaches are super safe. The only time they become unsafe is when the clothed people outnumber the unclothed people, because the vulnerability factor shifts and power disparities form... but again, it's not major.

I think people have a hard time imagining how it can be just fine because they have never experienced it, so it's all theoretical to them.
Pikachu wrote:Your ideas of putting women at risk is gross and sexist. Seems somewhere down the road, your feminism forgot about women.
I'm thinking about everyone - that includes trans and non-binary folk - not just women. If you think that's sexism then you need to go back to the dictionary.
Pikachu wrote:The vast majority of men don't sexually harass to begin with. We aren't talking about the majority. That had better be one big "alternate" changing room, because I suspect the majority of women will want to use it if it ever becomes acceptable for a transwoman who looks indistinguishable from a cis man to walk around naked in it.
Trans people are relatively rare. The debate in the U.S. has exaggerated so many factors, all through theory and not real experience. The kinds of arguments that people are making are just non-sense and are totally disconnected from reality, like the argument you just made. Like you'd swear that with unisex or trisexed restrooms, suddenly trans people will be coming out of the woodwork in every corner of America to flagrantly show their trans bodies to the world. The problem isn't trans bodies, it's body shame in general. People's genitals can ONLY be about sex, and not just bodies being bodies.

A transwoman who looks like a cis-man would have no problem in a unisex/non-sexed changeroom that everyone else is in. The problem exists because women as a sex have their own segregated washroom and they wonder wtf a "man" is doing in their presence, when in a sane and healthy world a person who looks like a man could be nude in their presence and it would be a non-issue. And if said woman has a problem, there's the alternate changeroom.

You're making it all about women, when really some people of all genders and configurations have body image issues. I have been to unisex places with open nudity and there was no problem. The problem is that keeping the body hidden and shameful maintains it as a sexual object which is why people like you can't fathom an environment where human bodies are just neutral. People are overly paranoid that their bodies will be instantly sexualized because they themselves are sexualizing nudity.

A change room is not inherently a sexual place. In fact I'd argue it's one of the most unsexy places for a nude body. Of course, in America bodies are political now so people can't keep their ignorant opinions to themselves.

And so what if a man is attracted to a woman in a change room? He can't help it. Neither can a woman who feels attracted to a naked man, or a gay man attracted to a man in the same change room. It's when people inappropriately act on those feelings that people get violated. The same is true when your clothes are on. There's no difference really. Consent rules still apply.

A situation where multiple sexes are nude together is inherently neutral.
The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.

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Re: Compromise between Conservatives/TERFeminism and Transfeminism.

Post by melsbells » Wed Jul 18, 13:52 2018

Aum wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 12:19 2018
I don't really get the concerns about safety, to be honest. It's communally monitored in addition to being monitored by the organization providing the space. Nude beach culture is very benign. I have gone for years and only witnessed a few incidents (we're talking 2 or 3 in 10 years), mostly pervy men who got caught staring or engaging sexually and then got called out by the community. I have seen women act inappropriately too but of course they rarely get called out because women can't possibly be pervs.

Nude beaches are super safe. The only time they become unsafe is when the clothed people outnumber the unclothed people, because the vulnerability factor shifts and power disparities form... but again, it's not major.

I think people have a hard time imagining how it can be just fine because they have never experienced it, so it's all theoretical to them.
I agree that open gender neutral areas like a nude beach or a sauna would be fairly safe and look like your nude beach experience. Earlier I mentioned secluded areas being unsafe for all people, but my main concern for safety is about violence against trans persons. Single occupancy prevents outing that could lead to someone being targeted.

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Re: Compromise between Conservatives/TERFeminism and Transfeminism.

Post by Aum » Wed Jul 18, 15:54 2018

melsbells wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 13:52 2018
Aum wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 12:19 2018
I don't really get the concerns about safety, to be honest. It's communally monitored in addition to being monitored by the organization providing the space. Nude beach culture is very benign. I have gone for years and only witnessed a few incidents (we're talking 2 or 3 in 10 years), mostly pervy men who got caught staring or engaging sexually and then got called out by the community. I have seen women act inappropriately too but of course they rarely get called out because women can't possibly be pervs.

Nude beaches are super safe. The only time they become unsafe is when the clothed people outnumber the unclothed people, because the vulnerability factor shifts and power disparities form... but again, it's not major.

I think people have a hard time imagining how it can be just fine because they have never experienced it, so it's all theoretical to them.
I agree that open gender neutral areas like a nude beach or a sauna would be fairly safe and look like your nude beach experience. Earlier I mentioned secluded areas being unsafe for all people, but my main concern for safety is about violence against trans persons. Single occupancy prevents outing that could lead to someone being targeted.
I think we are in agreement about what is needed, we're just stating it differently. I think the general public should get accustomed to nude bodies of all kinds. The sex-binary change rooms don't make sense anymore. However there should always be the option to change privately if you want, like separate change rooms or separate single stalls within changing areas. But as a general rule, everyone should change in the same room. I believe our culture could adapt to this change, like many places in the world.

I also agree that secluded areas can be dangerous in some rare situations. For instance a change room that is mostly empty except for one man and one woman could be uncomfortable. That's why having separate changing areas can come in handy if there is any potential for safety issues.
The artist's job is not to succumb to despair, but to find an antidote to the emptiness of existence. -W.A.

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Re: Compromise between Conservatives/TERFeminism and Transfeminism.

Post by Rainbow Dolphins » Wed Jul 18, 19:21 2018

I agree that our culture as a whole needs to be exposed to more non-sexualized nudity. If naked bodies were more commonplace I think we'd see a lot fewer people who are self-conscious or have self image problems. I do also agree that there ought to be an option for privacy.

I don't know about anyone else's experience but I've never "walked around naked" in a locker room; I go in there, wash up, change my clothes and leave. I don't wander around wagging my genitalia at people, I don't expect anyone else would under a normal circumstance. It's also common courtesy not to watch people while they are changing, yes? I've never taken an opportunity to see someone I was attracted to naked in the locker room. That's obviously all anecdotal but I think most people are able to follow social mores.
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