Tit for Tat.

Bitching, whining, complaining, and general negativity

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Tit for Tat.

Post by Skeezy » Tue Oct 9, 10:27 2018

I wasnt sure if I should post in feminism or ranting but I figure this is more of a rant.

Meme's gotta love them. I keep scrolling past them and a lot are funny. Some of them are serious issues. Then I come to the ones that irk me slightly.

I see a lot of feminist ones that are starting to become a little annoying because they are grounded in individual perspective. I see ones that make a lot of assumptions. I can condone the ones about rape even if they do get a tad ridiculous in what they say.

One post bothered me though. I cant quote it word for word but the gist of it was, "men dont have to have fear when they walk down the street at night and women have to take steps to stay safe." There are a slew of similar posts and meme's sweeping the internet in general.

I thought it was a ridiculous thing to say as its all from female perspective. It assumes men need not be afraid at night which is absolutely false.

At night you should fear for your life, I dont care who you are. People do bad things and while rape might not be at the top of mens list, violence, robbery and murder definitely are and they happen just as often if not more frequently than rape assaults.

I was just annoyed how the limited perspective makes the whole statement false. I understand that women have fear. Good, your supposed to, believe it or not, men do to in much the same manner (have steps to avoid ill will). I dont care how many laws they make, that should never fade. Bad things usually happen when you least expect them and if your not aware, then you become a prime target for bad individuals and that is reality regardless of how anyone feels.

It all comes off as, hey we have these fears and problems and the oyher gender doesnt have any. How would you know? Your not the other gender. Believe it or not, men may actually have more things to fear and be even more targeted than women. I know the amount of heads getting blown off here while sitting at a red light is ridiculous

Edit. To attack rape ypu need to attack lust itself. Even in countries where the penalty for rape is death, you still have rapists. Personally, I think one way is to make very harsh laws, but also make sex readily available and non costly in order to lower mens lust where its not wanted. Overall it should diminish rapes and assaults quite considerably.

Harassment is a little harder to diminish as its mostly an opportunity based type of thing a thats usully more low key than an assault.

I understand that many want society to change the way we think about things but, whatever we decide should be good for everyone, and that way it will stick. In not doing so, you wont change anything except the rules.

I often relate causes to my own. In it you have to ask, what are we realisticly victims of, and how in and in what are people needlessly playing victim roles? What is it that needs to change? The staple Im seeing amongst the herd for feminism is, Life isnt always easy therefore we are all victims because of our gender. Lifes not easy for men either, well.. most men. Men accept this as part of reality because thats how life works. No one promised you are going to be safe 24/7 or will never encounter things that make you uncomfortable, no one said you'll never have to take precautions.

"As women, from an early age we are told to take precautions " (to avoid abduction etc.). I'm like, so are boys. What is it they are trying to say thats not playing a victim of life or victim of the nature of men role?

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Re: Tit for Tat.

Post by Sonic# » Tue Oct 9, 12:12 2018

Two thoughts:

First, I agree with you that women and men both have reasons to worry about public safety. I don't think those memes assume that men don't have to worry at all. Instead, I would pin the argument down as one of two items:
1. Women have to develop strategies specific to sexual assault and harassment that men don't have to develop. (Implicit to this? That women develop these strategies in addition to whatever people ordinarily do to ensure safety imposes a greater burden on behavior. So it's the added pressure of preventing robbery, murder, violence, and sexual assault, with the added knowledge that legally not many sexual assaults are successfully prosecuted.)
2. Women feel more pressure to adopt these strategies. (Men don't as often regulate their style of dress or insist on walking in groups. Some men do, sure, but it's a difference of degree: a man is more likely to walk around alone or go to a bar alone than a woman. In other words, for men it's a calculated choice.)
So it's a simplification, and I think more work could be done to document or meme-ify other kinds of strategies, but if this meme is understood to be about preventing sexual harassment and assault, it's not one that seems "false" to me.

Second, I disagree with your edit. You attribute rape to "lust," but a lot of research shows that rape is more about power than lust. The second-wave version of this was that rape is an act of power and of patriarchal oppression. That claim was supported by research, but researchers realized that there were other factors to explore, including sexual desire itself. Subsequent research has recognized that sex motivates rape as well, and so there needs to be a more comprehensive explanation for why rape occurs. This article by Beverly McPhail provides an example for the causes ("etiology") of rape. McPhail weaves together five distinct explanations for why rape happens, arguing that (for instance) appeals to power should be considered alongside sexuality, gender roles, and other known factors in rape. In short, we know people don't rape just because they want sex; more often, it's because they want nonconsensual sex in particular, a category that is about both power and desire.

(Also, women - an entire gender that on average feels about as much sexual desire as men - don't rape as often or pay for sex as often. There are a lot of reasons that may be the case, including opportunity, social pressure, and power dynamics within relationships. So without writing a thesis on the subject, there's more going on there than desire alone.)

So I don't know what legalizing the sex trade would do. I don't think that it would simply reduce rates of rape or sexual harassment, since it wouldn't treat either gender roles or power.

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Re: Tit for Tat.

Post by Skeezy » Wed Oct 10, 10:45 2018

Hmm..

Addressing 1.

While I have to say men also develope strategies, its not as normalized among the collective. So that point I can see. For men danger is more about current environment, so I suppose women have the greater landscape of danger as well. However I dont think there will ever be a day when they shouldnt take steps for their own protection. I can see using this to give the scope of danger. Perhaps due to my own limitations, I dont see why this would go away in any given case though. Even if women achieved all their goals in politics, they would still have to take steps yo reduce danger, much like a parent should always keep and eye on their kids. There will always be dangers and criminals.


2. I attribute it to lust, because of my own inner unpure thoughts from 13 to now. Some people do crave power but is every rapist after power or sex? Is violating a woman always about power or rather fullfilling ones sexual category of lust. Force isnt always about power sometimes its about a preference that could not previously be achieved.

For example. Police that get caught forcing themselves upon women. Is it really about power or fullfilling his sexual deviency. I notice women always equate things to men want power when its not always the case.

For example. The sexual act of rough oral. Women always equate this to power and I notice for some men it might be. For me and some others its more about the act and the feeling and control of pleasure. Its not necessarily about the domination which is a realistic side effect. Thats just my case, I'm not in everyones head but Im sure Im not alone either.


Most men have sexual thoughts on a regular basis.the lack of understanding of women leading to a hatred of women can also create a rapist. In that scenario its probably a perfect balance of domination (fueled by hatred of women and their culture) and lust leading to their euphoria while commiting the act.

I know any thoughts Ive ever began to have about rape was powered my lust and not dominance. Urges bubbling and strong sexual desire with no outlet can lead a man to some troubling thoughts and I think most men have had these thoughts. Most of us know how to control ourselves though but physical, visual and mental lust is deinitely a strong factor of rape. Power would be more about, I rape you because I can and you will take it. I honestly doubt most rapes/sexual assaults occur because of that.

Think of to catch a predator. Here you have grown men of all ages seeking out under age women. Some of them are even married. Are they seeking out these girls to dominate them or to fullfoll their lust and sexual deviancy that they cannot normally? Judging from the text messages used as evidence its the latter. The power aspect would be minors are less likely to confront adults and tell them no. Behind that initially is lust.

A man who stalks a beautiful women is fueled by lust first and foremost. Most men will try to approach these women straight forward, its when she's not willing (or if they feel she wont be willing) that dominance comes into play.

All that and a whole slew of cheaters is why I say lust is the biggest factor. Trust me if you can somehow quell the lust of most men. Rape numbers would drop substantially. A mgtow would probably say, the marraige rate would plummet as well.

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Re: Tit for Tat.

Post by Sonic# » Fri Oct 12, 8:32 2018

Isn't "the control of pleasure" about both sex and control? Isn't control a kind of power? Isn't that more than a side effect?

I hear you disavowing power as a part of sex, but we're also talking about rape and sexual assault, not merely sexual fantasies or rough consensual sex. Power - being the adult, being the employer, being dominant, feeling entitled to someone else's body - can provide the opportunity, the means, the impulse to disregard consent. If rape were only about sex, then it would be trivial to avoid nonconsent, and there would be no correlation between sexual assault and gender (since genders are unequal in cultural power but relatively equal in sexual desire and in rates of having sex). Power is not merely incidental.

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Re: Tit for Tat.

Post by Skeezy » Fri Oct 12, 11:45 2018

Whoa conflicting thoughts there.

My point is what initializes most rapes. What leads the man to want to rape and take tons of risk. Raping doesnt give a man power, he has the position of power in this aspect to begin with. He is using his power to satisfy himself against the will of another person. This can also be a sexual fetish thats related to power but this all stems from initial lust. Saying rapes are fueled by domination power is like taking the 2ndary aspect and trying to make it the driving factor. If it were about power and not lust, it wouldnt be rape. It would be torture or murder instead. Rape for power is more for retaliation or other factors, like jail rape or raping someone strictly because they owe you money.

2ndly men have a very dark sexual side which they talk about amongst each other. In it we can relate to each other across race and backround etc. If you've ever been in a group of rowdy men or even at a strip club then ypu know exactly what I'm talking about.

I know you like going by research alot. Research often changes its mind later on. One study may find this another may contradict etc. I find one of your statements to be very bold and off key.

"Genders are equal in sexual desire." That is a very bold statement as your average man wants sex 3 times a day, until something happens to his libido. This is how you get men sleeping with multiple women in the same day. There are women who also want it this bad but it is definitely not the average. If women in general truly wanted it as bad as men, men would not complain as much, whats mens #1 complaint in unhappy marraige? Most women think about sex entirely different than how men think about sex. Meaning their actual focus during sex is diffferent. A lot of women also arent in touch with their sexuality still even well into their 30's.

Mens lust is great almost biblical, as a matter of fact it is biblical. You have to create laws around mens lust because its a huge factor of our psyche regardless of culture or society. If your not focused on mens lust as being the driving factor behind the broad spectrum of rapes, your barking up the wrong tree so to speak.

Lastly. This might be a little too much but... A lot of times when a man sees a woman that he finds beautiful, he begins to picture every sexual thing he wants to do to her. If its a man who is unprefferred by most women for one reason or another and is sexually frustrated, things like rape may and most likely will creep into his thoughts. Its how men control their inner thoughts that makes a rapist or doesn't. I must have her or I must have sex, is the driving force behind most rapes. Trying to dissolve mens lust does not work. I think we should try enbracing it instead and create an easily accesible legal outlet for sexually needy men and cater to their desires. The only rapists left would be those that rape for retaliation and or power.

Right now in the U.S. the only legal brotherls are in one state and men travel from all over the country to pay thousands of dollars to have sex or fantasy sex legally. What are the men who can't afford to do that left with?

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Re: Tit for Tat.

Post by Taurwen » Tue Oct 16, 14:22 2018

Where are you getting this "men want sex three times a day?" or men think more darkly sexual things than women (more dark, more sexual, and just more quantity wise)?

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Re: Tit for Tat.

Post by Skeezy » Thu Oct 18, 17:08 2018

@taurwen

Ive casually met sexual women and I, like most men have met women with higher sex drive than myself. However in circles of men these women are super rare or legendary in their lives.

I say sex 3 times a day because after sex most mens sex drive returns after and hour or two. Assuming he has other things to do, 3 times a day is about right. This is also from being in circles of varied men. Did you know many men masturbate even after having sex? (That came out in a circle of men very comfortable with each other). If a man has sex in the morning trust me his sex drive wont be quite as overwhelming but defibitely returns by mid day and thats pretty much across the board for men.

Masturbation tendancies also are a dead give away to 3 times a day or more. Many men masturbate just about every morning and before bed. In the middle could be sex or masturbation. Im saying this because its a known fact mens sex drive is very high and finding a woman with near the same sex drive is part of the difficult men have in relationships. Cheaters dont have this problem howerver for obvious reasons. The male sex drive is constant and thats for majority of men.

Most womens sex drive peaks around that time of the month. Nrot saying women are only sexual at that time but the vast majority of womens sex drive doesnt hardly even come close. If most women even liked to have sex once a day everyday then I would renig my statement but, thats not the case either. There is a huge gap. That causes frustration on both sides.

Im saying that if most women had the same sex drive as men, not having sex or witholding sex wouldnt be a thing at all and completely unheard of or at the very least abnormal. Most women would be open to random advances from men everyday, because their sex drive has been jumping many times a day, all day, everyday.

I dont see any of that in the broad spectrum of women. Only in a select few that aren't prostitutes or strippers.

I know in the pasr studies jave said say constant sexual thoughts for boys start around puberty. For me it started at about age 8. Before I even really knew about sex I couldnt stop fantasizing about girls. This is pre porn, was not molested just a normal 8 year old whos organ was jumping about 5 timez every hour

Understanding mens sex drive being so strong and constant is how you can percieve rape being a thing since the beginning of man and even among animals. Desire even with no trigger.

Womens sexuality is so varied it can't hold a candle. Especially with many women expclaiming you need fore play and to be turned on. Men are already turned on, they hardly ever are off lol uyou can only turn a man more on.

There are exceptions, loss of libido, stress, and other factors but, this is definitely the norm and its obvious when you look at how men are. Its also obvious if you look at womens sexual complaints about men.

When I was younger I thought it was abnormal to have sexual thouts so often. As I got older and talked with other men I found that my constant sex drive is normal.

@sonic
Trust me, the vast spectrum of rape is not initially about power. Victims/unwilling have power stripped, so to them its always about power. Rapists usually pick victims they can overpower but, most rapes are about lust and opportunity.

Edit: @sonic
Adding on

Child molestation, you think thats about power or fullfilling sexual deviency while everyones back is turned?
There are various obvious examples how its more about lust than power such as rapists who drug their victims. Bil cosby, dentists, doctors etc. How is it about power while your unconscious or drunk and incoherent? He's not commanding or forcing, he's using.
Last edited by Skeezy on Fri Oct 19, 18:35 2018, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tit for Tat.

Post by Sonic# » Thu Oct 18, 20:56 2018

You're not really denying the role of power in rape or sexual harassment. Yes, rape and sexual harassment involves overpowering people.

And I still disagree with you about desire too. Genders are not so unequal in desire as you're making it out to be. The differences in sexual behaviors tend to be small in research, as this metastudy attests. I admit I overreached a bit in saying that desire is equal - desire is so subjective that I can't say that. However, whether we're talking sex drive, inclination to have sex, or what have you, it's unfair to insist that men so far outpace women that, somehow, an enmeshed factor like power is no longer relevant to rape or sexual assault.

A couple of things:

1. You make at least one appeal to history, like Biblical history. A lot of the Bible depicts rampant sexual desire by women, and the strict regulation of said desire. Patriarchal rules regulate female desire, designating who a woman can marry and under what (man's) authority; the regulation of male desire is secondary and dependent on treating women as property. (Controlling who women can fuck means, by implication, that men are somewhat regulated too. In a patriarchal society, men pay a smaller price: they can't fuck everyone.) In other periods and times, women's desire has been thought to be greater than men's, whether we want to talk about the Tiresias myth or about common medieval stereotypes like the Loathly Lady and the Wife of Bath.

2. Your perceptions of desire, or your friend group, isn't really a general sample. It's not like you're talking to men from other cultures, or to lots of women in a similarly frank way. You aren't trying to explain things like women initiating sex less in terms like caution, or exhaustion at (on average) having to do a lot more around the house, or social mores about what is appropriate. (In many respects the US remains pretty conservative about what is sexually appropriate for women, one reason why women in churches or with less education on average display lower libidos.) You don't account for how the triggers for desire may, on average, differ. So, sure, men watch more porn, seek out more casual sex, and masturbate more. That doesn't demonstrate a greater level of desire or an inclination to rape or sexual assault. That demonstrates only that men have a few distinct cultural avenues to sexual satisfaction.

Finally, I'll just say that this entire discussion feels weird. You're freely generalizing about everybody's sexual desire over here, and it's hard to challenge all of that without generalizing in turn. Rape and sexual assault are exercises of power - no generalization you make about men's or women's desire changes that. Whether someone else's desire or arousal is normal or not doesn't matter to me, but using claims about what is normal to suggest men can't help but rape without legalized sex (if I understand you right) feels wrong. There are better arguments for preventing rape and for legalizing sex.

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Re: Tit for Tat.

Post by Skeezy » Fri Oct 19, 10:28 2018

1. I mean we've had patriarchy set rules probably out of necessaity as jealousy often leads to violence and murder. Laws have to be made about those kinds of things. Granted most of the rules for women were greatly unfair but, biblically women are at a disadvantage. Not saying to much more about that. I also dont have to deny power, only set that sexual desire is the true motive which initializes the action. I dont think I can elaborate on that any further.

2. Good points. Individuals are different but their is also sexual comrodery among men. Which is why I say most males are similar. In a bar, sexual setting, or casual and comfortable setting men tend to talk about sex and women and share thoughts and experiences among each other. This can even be the day we meet, in a group, or just two strangers crossing paths. Men tend to open up about how they really are sexually after a few drinks. Sometimes its a bit too much especially in the instances where I dont know the guy.


Im generalizing because I have a good general idea. I'm currently in 2 circles but have been in many, made up of many different races and ages. Men who arent as sexual are rarer than those who arent. Generalizing women from experience, ya got me there but again men share stories so I have my view but, also the view of a couple hundred other men I've met who opened up at various times and settings. Im more so addressing the problem. If you look at rape as a human problem, look at human emotions and desires, then you try to figure out a solid way to address the problem. How can you try to prevent most rapists from commiting their crimes in the 1st place? how can you keep an average man from becoming a rapist in a way that will work? If thats not the goal you wont see rape numbers drop. Think of what you do to get kids on the right path, you give them guidence and what they need to make a turn around.

Right now men, not just men in powerful positions, are concerned that feminists may be pushing too much of thier view on society and thus upon men. You have some pretty radical feminists out there making statements about men and society. You have women grouping together to protest/prosecute rape which is good but, along side that you have innocent men being released from jail decades after the fact, for rapes they did not commit. Especially black men accused by lying white women, which is another racial duality when women say rape is hard to prosecute. Men have been convicted with 0 evidence and served decades in jail for it, you have innocent men, in jail, because of liars, for decades, or their whole career is ended because of it and in many cases no charges brought against the person who lied. These men were robbed of having a shot at life and being successful. Its a little scarey and neither side is 100% wrong. Rape should be prosecuted but also fairly so. Also for rape or sexual assault you have to find a way to weed out non victims. Meaning women who decided they were victims after the fact but really weren't. In some cases Im hearing women try to oversell their occurence. Meaning no real rape or sexual assault occured but she wasnt really into it so she feels she can accuse due to feministic views and the huge push for #metoo. (Bad joke "pound me too", had to point that out though)

A lot of victims actions contradict their prosecution such as in bill cosby's case she said like most victims" it ruined my life to the point I couldnt function," though she was clearly able to function and continued to visit Mr. cosby for years after said night and also used him to further he career. In this case we know cosby drugged a women so he's getting what he deserves. Its just fishy is all I'm saying, and shes definitely screaming victim all my life because of him which is hard to believe. Thats part of my problem with such rape cases, because many women fall into playing victim and crocodile tears with a snap of a finger, it happens all the time especially in court or presence of law enforcement. In many cases women dont claim responsibility for their choices and just want prosecution or slander even though all of her actions encouraged said behavior. To dismiss this they start playing victim again then embelish and exaggerate. Im sorry, tears dont work on me.

He made sexual advances? But you went to his house ok, drank drinks socially ok and willingly went into his bedroom? Not only that but after the night in question you went back to his house several times in much the same scenario. Stop crying, your an adult and he didn't rape you. If this man had hurt you for the rest of your life you wouldnt go back. If you only wanted to further your career then you made a trade which condoned his behavior. Either way your clearly able to function and still make decisions.

Why im so cold with that is because of the inverse. If I went to a gay dudes house, drank with him and willingly went into his bedroom, if he advanced or touched me in a sexual manner, that is partly my fault because I'm an adult, Im not an idiot, and I made those decisions, which sent the wrong signals, regardless of verbal communication prior, unless he led me to the bedroom under false pretenses like help me move this dresser etc.. Even then I should be suspect due to the setting and previous casual actions.

Im sexual, I know sexuality good and bad and how others may be. I know how men are because I am one, and have been around other men of mostly of white, black, puerto rican, mexican and asian cultures throughout my life, so from that, I generalize mens sexuality because it is a face that men dont show publicly and mostly only among sex partners and other men who they feel they can be themselves. This is to the point where if someone questions this I wonder if they have a grasp on mens sexuality? I dont need a study or books to tell me how sexual men are, I know men already and the face they wouldnt show in a study etc. I dont try to be poltically correct or sugar coat things, all I know is whats real, and how people really are.

Try to think of U.S. president trump and his "grab her by the pu**y" statement he made in private with another man. Even though I dont like him and frankly despise him, thats how men talk in private and I didnt see anything wrong with that. It was a private conversation. Men talk like that all the time amongst each other. In private some men even go into detail about their sexuality and what they prefer and how often etc... Its rude? Yes, which is why we dont talk that way in other scenarios.

All in all as a black man, its all pretty scary. If I were accused of a rape I did not commit or, an old sex partner came back and said there was rape when there wasnt, would I get justice? is what concerns me. There is no statistic of how many innocent men are in jail, but I know there are many. This may be the most racist thing Ive ever said but in my eyes white people (at least in the U.S. )lie, live the lie, follow the lie, federal and local gov. lie, and quite easily lie on other people. Its coming out more and more that white women often lie on black men about rape. Depending on their status most of these men do not get fair trials. So to combat this someone would say but thats not that many cases and I would say, "how do you know?" They've been convicted and labeled as rapists, thats where your stats are coming from.

I dont have harvey weinstien advantages so its even more scarey for average men because we all know how sexual majority of men are at our core. With mens sexuality being addressed by feminism and women in general, one can't help but feel this may go a little too far if feminists (not the broad spectrum of women) ideals get pushed. There are still many women against feminism because the totality of feminism seems to lack structure and clear views in many areas when you listen to a feminist.

Sorry I know I veered across several topics.

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